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aerial refueling tips?


grabby
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One thing that helped me reduce the oscillations you are talking about is to focus on the tanker aircraft, while using your peripheral vision to line up with the basket.

 

I am able to better anticipate and make accurate corrections.

 

Other than that, just good old fashioned practice I would suppose. Good luck! This is definitely the most difficult part of DCS in my opinion.

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29 October 2009

CGNR-1705 / USMC Cobra

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Semper Memoria, Semper Vigilens

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Use plenty of rudder. Try to avoid rolling.

The tanker speeds up to a speed of 300knots... play with the throttle once you connect.

Practice a lot. I can't emphathize this enough. a LOT.

Concentrate on the tanker more than the drogue itself.

Do not over do the practice in one go. Do half an hour each time or you will shoot down/crash into the tanker in anger!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

"Alis Aquilae Aut Pax Aut Bellum"

 

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Use plenty of rudder. Try to avoid rolling.

The tanker speeds up to a speed of 300knots... play with the throttle once you connect.

Practice a lot. I can't emphathize this enough. a LOT.

Concentrate on the tanker more than the drogue itself.

Do not over do the practice in one go. Do half an hour each time or you will shoot down/crash into the tanker in anger!

 

let me say my impressions, ok is not impossible but the programmer had forgot one thing our ass is not on a real aircraft but on a chair in the middle of our room, i don't have the track ir, so the canopy of the m2000 obstruct the visual, second the tanker i smaller than the il 76 and the 90% is covered by the canopy frame, 3rd at this speed the throttle of my x52 is in the middle of a detent, so i've got to fight with th detents, the springs' the pov switch and the taker oeperator who is continuosly recovering the drogue every time i miss contact, that is possible but insane...

In lomac it was a right compromise between difficulty and realism here is a non sense.

Considering i'm able to refuel the su 33 the f 15 i start to think is right who sayis we need an option: Option Game, Refueling realism level, Easy, Medium, Realistic.

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Hi,

i'm trained to refuel the su33, but i'm pretty unable to refuel di m2000,

al the time i try to correct the aircraft attitude i get in to pilot inducted oscillations someone can help me to find the best way to refuel?

 

Practice is everything. Please keep in mind that the SU-33 has a SFM so yes, the M2000, the A-10 and the F-15C are a complete different story. There are some very good YouTube tutorials regarding AAR out there.

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I guess there are many ways of cracking this but here are my tips:

 

First of all, I usually have linear on all planes and choppers but for refueling the Mirage that does not work for me so I use an S-curve of about 25% IIRC.

 

Then ensure that you get the tanker flying as fast as possible, plus 300 knots IAS 20000 ft. Then approach with a little bit of excess power, I set up the mission with circa 20% fuel in the Mirage and in that case its around 25-27% throttle for slightly above 300 knots IAS. The more speed the easier it is to control. Try to figure out what the throttle position is for co-speed with the tanker. Use about 1% more in thrust and then touch your airbrakes to control speed as you approach. The airbrakes gives you a bit of pitch oscillations so you need to use then a bit before you connect. Then once you are connected, keep a slight excess of thrust, say 1 % then eyeball that you are in a good position and as soon as you get too close, touch the brakes to reduce speed a bit. Repeat until you are told to disconnect!

 

Probably not the way French AF pilots do it or are taught to but in DCS world it works for me....:smilewink:

 

Old Crow ECM motto: Those who talk don't know and those who know don't talk........

 

http://www.crows.org/about/mission-a-history.html

 

Pilum aka Holtzauge

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I guess there are many ways of cracking this but here are my tips:

 

First of all, I usually have linear on all planes and choppers but for refueling the Mirage that does not work for me so I use an S-curve of about 25% IIRC.

 

Then ensure that you get the tanker flying as fast as possible, plus 300 knots IAS 20000 ft. Then approach with a little bit of excess power, I set up the mission with circa 20% fuel in the Mirage and in that case its around 25-27% throttle for slightly above 300 knots IAS. The more speed the easier it is to control. Try to figure out what the throttle position is for co-speed with the tanker. Use about 1% more in thrust and then touch your airbrakes to control speed as you approach. The airbrakes gives you a bit of pitch oscillations so you need to use then a bit before you connect. Then once you are connected, keep a slight excess of thrust, say 1 % then eyeball that you are in a good position and as soon as you get too close, touch the brakes to reduce speed a bit. Repeat until you are told to disconnect!

 

Probably not the way French AF pilots do it or are taught to but in DCS world it works for me....:smilewink:

yes i use a similar way but i hope ed will add a different difficulty setting for the ar...

Consider not everybody could have a full scale control not everybody can configure 3 monitors and not everybody has 12 hours a day do training, has i've already told in another post, i start virtual flying when i was 14 with msfs95 and did ef2000, no one is asking to be less realist, but to give the possibility to perform all the mission task to every one...


Edited by grabby
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3rd at this speed the throttle of my x52 is in the middle of a detent, so i've got to fight with th detents, the springs' the pov switch and the taker oeperator who is continuosly recovering the drogue every time i miss contact,

 

Yes, I removed the detents entirely from my X52 Pro for this very reason.

 

I still cannot reliably refuel and many tankers have eaten Magics in frustration (sorry boys!), but at least I'm no longer also angry at the throttle... :joystick:

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The fundamental fact is refuelling IS hard. There are no shortcuts to developing the relevant skills, and comparing the simple flight model of the Su-33 to the more realistic and complex flight model of the Mirage just shows that the more complex flight model will expose weaknesses in your piloting skills.

 

The most effective way to improve your refuelling skills is to persist with it, and put the time in to learn the skills.

 

No amount of playing with curves will make you a better pilot. In fact, the more you mess with them, the longer it'll take to reach your goal as different joystick effectiveness will simply move the goalposts. Substituting a curve will just make the joystick less sensitive in one part of the curve, and over sensitive at higher deflections - how does that help exactly? A far more predictive response - namely a linear one - will mean you are LESS likely to over control at higher deflections.

 

The real key to air to air refuelling is being relaxed, and not gripping the stick too tightly - which will make you over correct. Also, as stated earlier, concentrate on flying in formation with the tanker, and not with the basket.

 

Take your time approaching slowly and always make very careful inputs - the more rushed they become, the more likely you are to over control, and end up in ever increasing oscillations. If that starts to happen, drop back, relax and try again.

 

There are no shortcuts to developing the skills required, there is simply no magic bullet. It requires dedication, understanding, and application. Nothing else will help.

 

Above all the thought of dumbing down this aspect of DCS World by allowing difficulty settings is totally unacceptable. Do real pilots get any kind of help? If that is what you want, then might I suggest that you are flying in the wrong world. DCS World's philosophy is to reproduce real world combat aviation in as realistic a manner possible. Where does the easy option fit in?

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Practice, practice, practice. There is no problems with the plane regarding air refueling so please all you need is practice.

It took me 5 hours to do it right :)

One thing that helped me is to do the attitude changes before they were necessary, it helped a lot with the PIOs ;)

 

Edit: above text is very true. Right now in the 2000 I find refueling easy, because I have done it A LOT.


Edited by myHelljumper

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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Above all the thought of dumbing down this aspect of DCS World by allowing difficulty settings is totally unacceptable. Do real pilots get any kind of help? If that is what you want, then might I suggest that you are flying in the wrong world. DCS World's philosophy is to reproduce real world combat aviation in as realistic a manner possible. Where does the easy option fit in?

 

No real pilots don't get an easy mode, but we're not real pilots and if DCS is the most realistic simulation then why are there: labels, model enlargements, a dedicated button that changes the game from "easy mode" to "hard mode"?

 

An option to make aar easier would not be out of place, I believe that if ED added this they would be praised not hated, and for those hard-core virtual pilots they wouldn't have it forced upon them

 

Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk

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I have no problem to perform the contact and mantain the speed of the tanker, but for me 1 kt less of speed to let a disconnection happen is not realistic, themeccanical connection between the tanker and the aircraft is much stronger as you can see in this video coming from italian AF.

${1}

Edited by grabby
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No real pilots don't get an easy mode, but we're not real pilots and if DCS is the most realistic simulation then why are there: labels, model enlargements, a dedicated button that changes the game from "easy mode" to "hard mode"?

 

An option to make aar easier would not be out of place, I believe that if ED added this they would be praised not hated, and for those hard-core virtual pilots they wouldn't have it forced upon them

 

Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk

 

Model enlargement doesn't work in case you hadn't noticed (clearly something you don't rely on, so why even mention it) and if you're on easy mode, you get a simple flight model already, which it seems is what you were requesting - frankly I have never even used it, and never will.

 

 

We could of course just give you a keyboard with one big button in the middle that you could smash down on repeatedly with a fist, making the entire mission run from start to finish with no further input from you. That's pretty easy I'd say.

 

What you are asking for is in point of fact totally redundant. You can fly most missions within the available airspace without ever needing to refuel. The whole point of AAR is doing something and hopefully simulating what real world pilots do with some semblance of realism. What other reason is there for putting it in mission plans? It would be far better eliminating the existing flaws, rather than wasting time on an easy mode. After all, why exactly would you even bother doing it more than a couple of times given that it is not necessary in the confines of the existing maps? It sums up the whole meaning of futility!

 

It really comes down to what kind of reward you want from learning to fly the most in depth simulation available today.

 

Should ED dumb it down, or make it more realistic? It may seem a philosophical question, but which option deserves more attention, and resources? Step back to the dark ages and turn it into FC4, or push it ever closer to the reality of flight?

 

To me it is a moot question, which is why I said I wasn't in favour of simplifying stuff to make it easy for the people lacking motivation to look good by doing hard stuff without any real effort.

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I dont wanna defend no one and in some point i'm agree with you, but difficult doesn't mean realistic... i did aeronautic studies at the high school yes in italy if you want you can do aeronautic high school, and after the hig school i studied to be a sports car tester driver. From my experience a can tell you there are many realistic car simulator but the tendancy is to exagerate the phisycs, when you drive at 300 kmh you have many factor allow you to understand the where is limit, vibration yaw bump, feedback from the suspension and the steering... in the videogame is not possible so the tendancy is to globally increase the car reaction to make you understand what is going on... this is good but not extremely realistic because if you don't feel it with the body when you correct is late and the result often is a too big reaction...

It happens in the flight simulators too, belive me is easyer if you have the right skills and knowledge drive a real sports car than a simulated one.

And this is the same opinion for the real pilots... I work as a supplyer for an italian aeronautic company i was sharing my passion with some technician and pilots and they say the same vibrations are the 90% of the sensations.

And you feel it with the ass and the body... Full mission Simulator are good training instruments. But they're not enaugh... The studends tipically overreact on the real machines because they are traind for the simulators where averithing is good simulated but not real.

I don't want a autorefuel switch but the possibility to perform a good aar with normal peripherials and by keeping 2-3 knots of margin on speed it seems to be possible and in the same time realistic don't you think?

 

Inviato dal mio SM-G920F utilizzando Tapatalk


Edited by grabby
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I don't want a autorefuel switch but the possibility to perform a good aar with normal peripherials and by keeping 2-3 knots of margin on speed it seems to be possible and in the same time realistic don't you think?

 

Inviato dal mio SM-G920F utilizzando Tapatalk

 

Yes I agree, I don't want to be able to fly within 100ft of the tanker and the plane do the rest, I would rather fly within 100ft of anything and it tone down the wake turbulence.

 

Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk


Edited by ultrablue2258
type: walls to wake
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@grabby: I agree that missing the acceleration part makes it difficult in sims. From my own experience in gliders and private planes, the seat of the pants feel really helps to control your flight path.

 

Over at IL-2 there is a discussion about roll-yaw-pitch coupling and wobbliness and how realistic this is and while many think more wobbly = more realistic in a sim I think the "on rails" flight model that many are derogatory about is actually closer to IRL:

 

Just watch this clip with F-18's doing AR: Notice (about 4:50 into the clip) how crisply the jet responds to input and the lack of wobbliness. In addition, notice the relatively large control inputs the pilot is using at the connect. If you ever try that large control input in DCS for AR you are in for a surprise! In DCS it's minute veeeeery small inputs or else you are gone.....

 

And do stay in the clip to around 6:30 when they do a couple of supersonic fly-by's.....BOOM! :smilewink:

 

Old Crow ECM motto: Those who talk don't know and those who know don't talk........

 

http://www.crows.org/about/mission-a-history.html

 

Pilum aka Holtzauge

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