Pre-mission planning (AJS-37 + Other aircraft)

[Ice_Cougar]

I've noticed that MANY planned aircraft for DCS (F-18C, AJS-37, possibly Tornado or Jaguar, and others) have some very interesting navigational and targeting systems that incorporate themselves into said aircraft...However these systems only provide useful information to the crew by how well the mission was planned before the flight.

 

For instance, British (and possibly other Air-forces that acquired Tornados and Jaguars) fast-strike aircraft such as the Jaguar and Tornado had moving maps displayed in-front of their A/G radar navigation display(s), with waypoints chosen before the flight by either the lead pilot, or someone else (It seems to be a dedicated mission coordinator/wing leader of the sort, but I don't know how the ranks and positions of the RAF worked in this timeframe). Anyway, these waypoints were chosen via a map on a table with a special marking instrument that took the precise position the crosshairs were on the map and fed the exact GPS coordinates into a computer, which uploaded them into data cartridges that would then be inserted into the aircraft's own computer.

 

Good footage/example of this:

 

Now as far as I know from my own research, the Swedish Air Force had a similar system. However, I do not know how this system worked, what it was like to plan these strikes, how the waypoints were chosen, how accurate it is, (although thanks to another post by renhanxue, we do know that the system can drift) or even how to access them in the cockpit.

 

Okay...all of that out of the way I can get to my main purpose of posting this thread. Is there going to be any way to actually plan waypoints and other mission parameters in multiplayer? I'm very aware that the planned waypoints and other fight information for each available aircraft is determined in the mission planner when the server's base mission was made. However the current UI for the game doesn't allow players about to step into their aircraft to change any waypoints or strike information, only re-arming and re-fueling.

 

What my point is, is that what will happen to aircraft assigned to a strike mission if the target they've been assigned was taken out earlier? Will ED or LNS implement some way for a player, server admin, or even combined-arms JTAC/GCI to change the information stored in these data cartridges before a flight on a multiplayer server? Because I think it would be GREAT to have a system for this somewhat similar to online pre-mission planning in Falcon 4.0/BMS 4.33. :)

 

renhanxue's post about the AJ/AJS 37's "pseudo-inertial" system:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2967909&postcount=7

 

Let me know what you guys think about this, as any suggestions for a similar system or ANY comments for that matter are most warmly welcomed. :smilewink:

 

-Ice_Cougar (Kingfisher in-game)

 

(P.S. It would be especially great to hear ANY developer's opinion(s) of this from ED, or any Third-Party-Dev teams. Seeing as this could be a sim-changing feature, I'd love for developers of all teams to see this, as it could lead to some interesting aircraft being planned in the future...*cough* Jaguar *cough*)

Edited December 2, 2016 by Ice_Cougar

[Cobra847]

The Viggens' computer and navigational system includes significant functionality to enter and read weapons and targeting data.

Aircraft placed in the mission editor will have their waypoints automatically added amongst other things.

 

However, as you mention, this is limited to being read from what was created at mission start.

 

Worst case scenario, you can always plan your mission out and manually enter the data into the flight computer on spawn.

 

It's not quite something we've thought about before, but it's an interesting issue to solve in MP!

Edited December 2, 2016 by Cobra847

[Flagrum]

Not sure how practical this is, but as we have now this new annotation feature for the F10 map, a team should be able to plan a new flight plan where everyone has the same waypoint data available. These could then be entered into the aircraft's nav system.

(although it might be still a bit of a challenge in regards to magnetic deviation - F10 map vs. Viggen Nav)

[Ice_Cougar]

The Viggens' computer and navigational system includes significant functionality to enter and read weapons and targeting data.

Aircraft placed in the mission editor will have their waypoints automatically added amongst other things.

 

However, as you mention, this is limited to being read from what was created at mission start.

 

Worst case scenario, you can always plan your mission out and manually enter the data into the flight computer on spawn.

 

It's not quite something we've thought about before, but it's an interesting issue to solve in MP!

 

(Oh my good god Cobra noticed me :lol: )

 

Thanks a lot for your response! :D I was not aware that the flight computer allowed you to manually punch-in information...I'll definitely try this with coordinates given for some no-doubt exciting joint-operations in both single-player, and multiplayer/coop.

[mambo]

One of the best movies I've seen, thanks Ice

[Ice_Cougar]

One of the best movies I've seen, thanks Ice

 

No problem! I've watched it many times over! :thumbup:

[Ice_Cougar]

Not sure how practical this is, but as we have now this new annotation feature for the F10 map, a team should be able to plan a new flight plan where everyone has the same waypoint data available. These could then be entered into the aircraft's nav system.

(although it might be still a bit of a challenge in regards to magnetic deviation - F10 map vs. Viggen Nav)

 

Yes, this is definitely a good suggestion that would work for a flight, but everyone would have to be in voice comms...I suppose a combined arms JTAC/GCI could place down markers on thee F10 map of where to get each of the waypoint's coordinates...The practicality of my suggestion is definitely questionable, and certainly not a final solution.

 

Thanks for the feedback! :thumbup:

[QuiGon]

Pre-mission planning (especially for MP) would be a great and IMHO badly needed addition, but I think this is something that needs to be done by ED, or at least be given a framework by ED, as it affects many different aircraft.

Edited May 28, 2018 by QuiGon

[MBot]

Pre-mission planning (especially for MP) would be a great and IMHO badly needed addition, but I think this is something that needs to be done by ED, or at least given a framework by ED, as it affects many different aircraft.

 

I fully agree on both your points.

[Pikey]

Yeah needs addressed by ED as its not possible to change after mission has loaded as the waypoints are in the miz itself. We need a cartridge system that overrides this. Whilst setting up flight plans is kindda cool the first few times, for something persistently dynamic like Blue Flag, you need this option.

[MBot]

Changing WPs would be one thing, the other thing would be be able to even see them in the first place :)

[Pikey]

The workflow process I would think best would be to do away with the current slot system as it stands completely. Players should enter a map and see airfields and by listing those airfields see the available assets from a simple resource system. Then when picking a plane from an airfield, they get the option then to make waypoints which each module can directly input to the relevant navigation system.

 

Been asking for this for years but its a lot of effort in the back end.

[RaXha]

The workflow process I would think best would be to do away with the current slot system as it stands completely. Players should enter a map and see airfields and by listing those airfields see the available assets from a simple resource system. Then when picking a plane from an airfield, they get the option then to make waypoints which each module can directly input to the relevant navigation system.

 

Been asking for this for years but its a lot of effort in the back end.

 

If they can rebuild the entire rendering engine they can probably do something like this to, it's just a question of having the time to do it with all of their different projects going on at any point in time. :P

[Ice_Cougar]

Pre-mission planning (especially for MP) would be a great and IMHO badly needed addition, but I think this is something that needs to be done by ED, or at least given a framework by ED, as it affects many different aircraft.

 

Yeah needs addressed by ED as its not possible to change after mission has loaded as the waypoints are in the miz itself. We need a cartridge system that overrides this. Whilst setting up flight plans is kindda cool the first few times, for something persistently dynamic like Blue Flag, you need this option.

 

Glad you two agree! :happy:

[Ice_Cougar]

Changing WPs would be one thing, the other thing would be be able to even see them in the first place :)

I don't agree too much about them showing up on the map, rather I'd just like to be able to tell the bearing from each waypoint to the next one, and how far I must go to reach it. Thus navigation can still be allowed to be a bit challenging at times...but my opinion is probably because I love navigating. :lol:

[david.lind]

Ok so coming from playing multiplayer op's with slightly longer planning phases, using ATO's, GoogleEarth overlays e.t.c.

 

I would be really nice with a small stand-alone application, that generates files in saved-game's folder. being picked up when entering an Viggen in game. Containing (frequency presets, waypoints, ordnance options e.t.c.)

 

Thats how I interpreted "Data input / output interface and pre-planned data cartridge functionality."

 

sort of like https://gliptal.github.io/cartridger/

 

/D

[Ice_Cougar]

Ok so coming from playing multiplayer op's with slightly longer planning phases, using ATO's, GoogleEarth overlays e.t.c.

 

I would be really nice with a small stand-alone application, that generates files in saved-game's folder. being picked up when entering an Viggen in game. Containing (frequency presets, waypoints, ordnance options e.t.c.)

 

Thats how I interpreted "Data input / output interface and pre-planned data cartridge functionality."

 

sort of like https://gliptal.github.io/cartridger/

 

/D

 

Oh my god that would be VERY cool for any aircraft harboring a data-cartridge system! I would probably pay up-to $10.00 for a software dedicated to that, as long as it could set waypoints of different types ofc... :D

Edited December 2, 2016 by Ice_Cougar

[Krinje]

That is a very interesting proposition. At the very least you could right now, with no dev involvement, create an application that you could create a flight plan in, generate a coordinate list and plop that into the knee board folder for the aircraft or all aircraft of your choice. From that you would then manually enter way points into navigation from a list.

 

That is about 50% better than what you'd have to do now, and 100% better than not using waypoints at all because of the hassle.

 

Is there any better, or more real time way to import information *into* DCS? I know that you would have to create the knee board before loading into the aircraft, and probably before connecting to the server.

[Ice_Cougar]

That is a very interesting proposition. At the very least you could right now, with no dev involvement, create an application that you could create a flight plan in, generate a coordinate list and plop that into the knee board folder for the aircraft or all aircraft of your choice. From that you would then manually enter way points into navigation from a list.

 

That is about 50% better than what you'd have to do now, and 100% better than not using waypoints at all because of the hassle.

 

Is there any better, or more real time way to import information *into* DCS? I know that you would have to create the knee board before loading into the aircraft, and probably before connecting to the server.

 

It would probably have problems getting past the verification/validation thingy for many servers...

 

Thanks for your input :D

[JaNk0]

...

 

Good footage/example of this:

 

...

 

That is some good music at 19:35

[Skjold]

Data cartridge system is one thing that would catapult the possibilities of DCS to a much higher level, been on my wish list for a long time.

[Ice_Cougar]

Data cartridge system is one thing that would catapult the possibilities of DCS to a much higher level, been on my wish list for a long time.

 

Indeed! I'm trying to find footage of the swedish cartridge system working...I saw a video ONCE about it, and am working to find it.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Ice_Cougar

[Cobra847]

The data cartridge is inserted into a slot in the lower rear left area of the cockpit.

 

You must load the data from the data cartridge using the computer entry panel. This will load pre-set information from the Mission editor present in the data cartridge.

[RaXha]

The data cartridge is inserted into a slot in the lower rear left area of the cockpit.

 

You must load the data from the data cartridge using the computer entry panel. This will load pre-set information from the Mission editor present in the data cartridge.

 

 

 

Pretty much just like you load dsms info on the A-10C?

[Vantskruv]

So, is there any reference to the format of data AJS37 is loading from cartridge?

 

I am in middle of developing a planner for the Viggen, currently I have a tactical map over Causcus which is correctly mapped to coordinates, and where you can create waypoints B1-B9, LS, L1, L2, and BX6-BX9. The best would of course to have an exact represenation of the DCS map, but I am not sure if it is possbile to decode. The tactical maps is fairly accurate though.

 

Also, it would be nice to know which idfentiers I need for bomb and missile settings which you then can preplan.