MiG-21 vs F-5E. PvP

[Yappo]

Real:

In the article a credible and authoritative source, an actual Soviet test pilot Vladimir Kondaurov describes how in each test, this early F-5E donated from Vietnam after the war (without the later manuveuring enhancing sharknose) was able to consistently win in a turning dog fight against the MiG-21 BIS in under 4 minutes (and was able to beat a MiG-23 in under 5 minutes).

 

In DCS 1.5.5:

15:3 MiG-21 wins.

 

TRACK (7.35 MB)

https://yadi.sk/d/kI8MZP6RyYyfq

[Kang]

Just a theory, but maybe this is done to the fact that the MiG-21 has been around in DCS for quite a while longer than the F-5E. Its pilots are probably more numerous and slightly more experienced still.

[Yappo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdjLPZqpxv4

[BlackLion213]

Devil's advocate: does that article give specific details on conditions, altitudes, weapons used, fuel state, operating limits (were any aircraft operating under G restrictions for any reason), state of engine tune, etc?

 

There are a lot of variables that could effect that outcome, not to mention pilot specific factors.

 

-Nick

[GrmlZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdjLPZqpxv4

 

The speed of the F-5E at the start of the video just before you switch camera to the Mig21 is ~350 kp/h !! and the mig 21s is over 560kp/h at the same time.

Well of course the Mig wins if you dont do anything but fly in circles with such a massive speed difference.

 

Second fight, you merge and the F-5 goes in a tight as can be HORIZONTAL turn, wasting energy, the Mig uses the vertical. Again, outcome is not surprising.

 

 

 

In any case, the F-5E vs Mig-21Bis matchup in DCS is pretty much what one would expect looking at both planes capabilities.

The F-5 can outturn the Mig, but you still need some basic knowledge of energy management. Especially since a decent mig pilot will use his better thrust to weight ratio or higher speed to get an energy advantage.

 

Also, that "article" is simply not a viable source in this form.

Edited November 14, 2016 by GrmlZ

[Yappo]

The speed of the F-5E at the start of the video just before you switch camera to the Mig21 is ~350 kp/h !! and the mig 21s is over 560kp/h at the same time.

Well of course the Mig wins if you dont do anything but fly in circles with such a massive speed difference.

 

Second fight, you merge and the F-5 goes in a tight as can be HORIZONTAL turn, wasting energy, the Mig uses the vertical. Again, outcome is not surprising.

 

 

 

In any case, the F-5E vs Mig-21Bis matchup in DCS is pretty much what one would expect looking at both planes capabilities.

The F-5 can outturn the Mig, but you still need some basic knowledge of energy management. Especially since a decent mig pilot will use his better thrust to weight ratio or higher speed to get an energy advantage.

 

Also, that "article" is simply not a viable source in this form.

 

MiG-21 in turn ~6G have stable speed 700 km/h.

F-5 down 700 to 400.

[GrmlZ]

MiG-21 in turn ~6G have stable speed 700 km/h.

no

[Hadwell]

the F-5 is closer to the mig-15 than the mig-21... and in actuality, the mig-15 is better except in top end speed... and getting and keeping the f-5 at those high speeds while actually doing anything is pretty difficult, it bleeds speed so well...

 

you can easily turn fight an F-5 with the mig-15, and the F-5 can't get away unless he straitens out and gives the mig-15 a clean shot.

 

it's really easy to understand why the F-5 was never really that popular, except as a trainer and light attack plane for smaller countries.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Hadwell

[Ramsay]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144200

 

F-5E vs MiG-21: Soviet Test Pilot's Insight

So, what was happening in flight? At the speeds of 800 km/h (430 kts) and above the fight was on equal terms, nobody had explicit advantages, but the fighting was not literally maneuvering because of the large radii of the maneuvers. We would both stay at the equal maximum allowable g-loads. Whilst at the speeds below 750 km/h (400 kts) one couldn't sustain these g-loads even with the afterburner. And the lower the speed was the faster it decayed, thus lowering the maximum available g-load. It turned out that the aerodynamics was what won the day, not the thrust/weight ratio. But how was I to explain all this to the people above?

[mattebubben]

the F-5 is closer to the mig-15 than the mig-21... and in actuality, the mig-15 is better except in top end speed... and getting and keeping the f-5 at those high speeds while actually doing anything is pretty difficult, it bleeds speed so well...

 

you can easily turn fight an F-5 with the mig-15, and the F-5 can't get away unless he straitens out and gives the mig-15 a clean shot.

 

it's really easy to understand why the F-5 was never really that popular, except as a trainer and light attack plane for smaller countries.

 

Saying that the F-5 was never that popular is an interesting view...

 

Considering it is a very popular and successful aircraft,

With a large number of nations (30+ nations including many Nato nations) having operated it and it was most certainly not just for small or poor countries...

 

And just because we get a certain result in DCS at this moment does not mean that is comparable to real life results

(since the real life statements we have give a different result)

especially since the F-5E is so new in DCS,

So there could be many reasons why we are getting the results we are in DCS...

 

Pilots might not be comfortable with it and might not be using in the best way or there might be areas in the Flight model etc (on either the F-5E or Mig-21Bis) that are not 100% like they would be in reality.

 

And saying the F-5E is a worse fighter then the Mig-15 in everything but top speed is a very mistaken statement

(and i dont think anybody who has ever flown the F-5A or F-5E in reality would agree with you).

[Verde]

We will never know, as there i gues there is no person that flew them both tiger ang mig -15 i mean;)

[Schmidtfire]

What we really need is a MiG-17 with afterburner and atolls =)

On paper, I had expected the F-5E to be more lethal than the MiG-21 in a close in dogfight.

But one thing that is very true, is that it's way easier and somewhat carefree to control the F-5E when pushing it to the extremes.

One mistake in the MiG21 and you will be heading into the ground in an unexpected roll or suffer a classic flameout.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Schmidtfire

[DerNeueMensch]

The F-5 can outturn the Mig, but you still need some basic knowledge of energy management. Especially since a decent mig pilot will use his better thrust to weight ratio or higher speed to get an energy advantage.

 

The report is referring to a sustained turn. I remember reading that report as well and was startled when I found out, that there is no way that an F-5 can outturn a Mig-21 in a sustained turn and at a co-energy-state.

[GrmlZ]

The report is referring to a sustained turn. I remember reading that report as well and was startled when I found out, that there is no way that an F-5 can outturn a Mig-21 in a sustained turn and at a co-energy-state.

 

Well, its not really surprising. The F-5s Thrust to weight ratio is mediocre at best.

The Mig-21Bis has a better one just in normal AB, with emergency AB the Mig-21Bis thrust to weight ratio is pretty impressive. 4th gen fighter level.

 

 

The F-5s good instantaneous turnrate also has a lot to do with its LEX giving it the ability to pull high AOA, but high AOA costs energy. The flaps add drag also.

 

So again, the F-5 can turn well, but you need to know about energy management in this plane. As a matter of fact, it is great for learning just that.

 

There isn article here with an interview with an USAF pilot that flew the F-5E in the agressor role, as well as the F-15, F16 and Mig-29.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-to-win-in-a-dogfight-stories-from-a-pilot-who-flew-1682723379

[Yappo]

So, what was happening in flight? At the speeds of 800 km/h (430 kts) and above the fight was on equal terms, nobody had explicit advantages, but the fighting was not literally maneuvering because of the large radii of the maneuvers. We would both stay at the equal maximum allowable g-loads. Whilst at the speeds below 750 km/h (400 kts) one couldn't sustain these g-loads even with the afterburner. And the lower the speed was the faster it decayed, thus lowering the maximum available g-load. It turned out that the aerodynamics was what won the day, not the thrust/weight ratio.

 

What is aerodynamic have F-5 and MiG-21 in DCS?

Belsimtek make PFM-only (god tier).

LS make External AFM (shit tier).

 

F-5E ~ real aircraft, MiG-21 ~ UFO.

 

LS EFM kills Viggen and F-14, IMHO.

[Sweep]

What is aerodynamic have F-5 and MiG-21 in DCS?

Belsimtek make PFM-only (god tier).

LS make External AFM (**** tier).

 

F-5E ~ real aircraft, MiG-21 ~ UFO.

 

LS EFM kills Viggen and F-14, IMHO.

 

It's External Flight Model (EFM).

 

Not External Advanced Flight Model.

 

EFMs can be done to the PFM "level", and in this case...I'd say it's definitely at the PFM level.

 

Oh, by the way, for all of you complaining about the F-5's performance in the merge - Get a wingman and try again - Maybe train a bit more as well...There are things you can do to make the MiG do something stupid. ;)

Edited December 6, 2016 by Sweep

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

What is aerodynamic have F-5 and MiG-21 in DCS?

Belsimtek make PFM-only (god tier).

LS make External AFM (shit tier).

 

F-5E ~ real aircraft, MiG-21 ~ UFO.

 

LS EFM kills Viggen and F-14, IMHO.

Hahaha. Had to look twice and see if this guy was for real. Buddy.....Dolphin aka Novak is an active duty MiG21 pilot. The LNS MiG21 has REAL flight data in its FM. If you get constantly outclassed by the MiG wither in the BVR OR WVR then your either the worst F5 pilot around or your enemy knows more than you do. There are areas in which the MiG is outclassed by the F5 mainly in the low speed low altitude turns. Read the books, study the tactics and train to fight more.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[*Rage*]

No need to respond to inflammatory posts like that. In my opinion.

[Yappo]

The LNS MiG21 has REAL flight data in its FM.

2 years no release status

everlasting bugs

21 have more angle in horizontal turn and small speed up. F-5 drop speed to ~400km/h

[Yappo]

https://youtu.be/XREzl8Vsawo

[The Legman]

Its hilarious that you even compare real pilots with DCS pvp.

[zaelu]

Hahaha. Had to look twice and see if this guy was for real. Buddy.....Dolphin aka Novak is an active duty MiG21 pilot. The LNS MiG21 has REAL flight data in its FM.

 

If everything was so perfect then all the un-documented modifications on Mig21 FM since launch were what? The dev climbed in the cockpit with different mood in that day? Or maybe the truth is that DCS Mig21 is a lot of work and maybe some of it is still to be done?

 

Here are some wise words (bolded by me):

 

Hi all, just took her for a quick flight and see exactly what Zmot is trying to show in the >40000 ft regime. I assume that standard thermo and atmospheric equations might break away under some assumptions that aren't true at very high altitudes. In any event, I'm on the case and looking into it.

 

BTW, I'm fully aware that we are a very multicultural group and that tone can come off very differently online than intended and I try not to read too much into it. I usually assume people only report problems cause they care about the success of the module.

 

This is the top on my list right now, apologies I haven't tackled this one for so long.

[howie87]

Quote from Cobra earlier this week:

 

The MiG-21 may currently overperform in sustained turn rate. We are looking into it.

 

EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE