Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

[Tj1376]

 

Maybe the mission should give something more to red.( ERs or DL.) Right now red can not compete with 4 ships of M2000s. They will get slaughtered. Until they can match them with a 4 ship of M2000s they will always die. Due to numbers they cant. The su27s are a joke vs M2000 as you know. The 27R only adds to payload. The 73 can barely hit the M2000s. This also leads to the M2000 fest. I enjoy fling the Mirage but it outclasses the fc3 fighters in this setup. I liked the balance the way it was before the M2000 was introduced. You seen more of a Red vs Blue setup. Now its fly Mirage or die! The hard core Mirage guys know this. You dont see them flying their Mirages on other servers. They come here where they have all the advantage. Until I see them flying su27s and mig29s they will not understand. The mirage guys were upset when DL was introduced. They knew they were losing the big advantage they have. The guys that do fly both know the issues the Russian planes are facing. They have no BVR capabilities and the fact the 73s can barley track a m2000 kills thier WVR capability. The F15s are a much better match for them in the current setup. None of this would matter if we seen 2:1 in favor of red. We do not though.

 

 

This! All of this!!! Agreed whole heartedly.

 

TJ

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AbortedMan]

Blue Flag is up not even a full day and the usual suspects are already at it again.

[*Rage*]

Blue Flag is up not even a full day and the usual suspects are already at it again.

 

Welcome back:thumbup:

[Oceandar]

Why DL over ER? While I would like the same, but I think we would have to test again what server performance would be like. maybe it was not confirmed that DL was the culprit.

Because ER could act as dumb as the 27R. Based on my personal experience and confirmed by some (See Su-27 forum, it was posted by Frostie or Rage with a track, cant remember exactly) where ER happily chasing chaff the moment it was launched. I almost punched my monitor when it happened to be honest.

 

OTOH, DL gives you better SA. Knowing is a power as long as you know how to employ this advantage. I dont even care right now if they give 120 for F-15 or make M2K Blue only.

I'd say bring it on

[AbortedMan]

@Ciribob just...just give everyone everything so they can all stfu and we can go back to using this thread for information about the server and mission updates without having to sift through pages of this muck.

[CrashO]

Maybe it's time to bump this suggestion again? Still feel like it would make the most future proof sense. Especially when the F-14, F-18 and Harrier join in on the party.

 

My goal was to make it more layered. Have BVR aircraft with heavy AA flying around from the back,. with limited lives. Have Interceptors (mirage,21, F5) with more lives, close to the front. And with the new change, have the 21 and F-5 even closer to the active front, by having them spawn at captured based. All without limiting aircraft's capabilities by messing with fuel, alignments or load-outs.

 

In case of the blue team:

The 2 satellite-airfields where M2000C can spawn (when captured), are to add something stronger then the F-5 closer to hostile territory. I just picked these airfields at random, as long as they are in the back of red space. Might also be a option to take for example "Anapa" as the Mirage spawn base (RED's main BVR base). Creating a tactical option of pushing up the coast first to get it (so you can spawn mirages), before pushing Krymsk, Kras and Maykop). Or even allowing to re-arm the BVR fighters there if you have captured it. Seeing as it's red's main base, with heavy AA fighters and lying deep into red territory. It's going to take a huge push to get to it, but with a big reward looming.

Do I understand that right, F-15s only at the rear most bases? From your first proposal I thought there were supposed to be F-15 all the way up to the frontline and only AMRAAMs are limited to the rear most bases.

 

This proposal is actually pretty interesting.

F-15s only at the rear most bases, but with AIM-120s.

Mirages at all the other homeside bases.

F-5s in captured bases + 2 Mirage bases.

Same for OPFOR with their respective inventory.

 

I would restrict the availability of AMRAAMs to the rear most bases though and make only Sparrows available for rearming at all the other bases.

[lemoen]

^ This

[-Painter-]

@mia - it is simply not true that all of the mirage pilots fly it due to its advantage. It is not true for me and so it is not for a lot others. To be honest I am really not sure if the advantage you are talking about really does exist to that extend. We - Reapers - had a squadron match with a red pilots squadron flying FC3-russian fighters. We lost all rounds. And it was not due to an advantage or disadvantage of the aircraft - it was due to the pilot skills and due to the cooperation and training of the pilots working together. That leads down to the following: If 2 or 3 red lonewolfs on blueflag are facing 2 or 3 blue Reapers (or whatever we-fly-always-together-squadron-buddies), the lonewolfs are lost by a chance of 90 % - doesnt matter in what aircraft they are in. Thats the reason. Not the Mirage, not the russian datalink or whatever. I can only ask you to trust me: I tried FC3-aircraft and I felt to have NOT 90 % of the immersion the fully modeled cockpit is giving to me, even more since I fly in Oculus VR only now. I do not feel to have any advantage over the russian jets, too often good russian pilots killed me - they teached me that I do not have any advantage at all (or at least I am not able to make use of it). Maybe the Mirage has some advantage in some situation - the other jets have it in another situation.

Also when I fly on other servers, I fly the Mirage only (or Huey).

 

I guess one additional reason a lot pilots join blue is the fact that they are from NATO-countries and identify themselves with that side.

[*Rage*]

I like the idea of greater emphasis on the Mig21 and F5. Move rhe modern jets away from the front line.

[IASGATG]

server down. :(

[D4n]

yep sadly down... And no explanation (yet) why it's offline...

[Alpenwolf]

So we're back at it with balance issues.

 

Never thought players would rather join the outnumbering team as posted here by some of you. I myself love the challenge of being the underdog so I've always joined Red. However if you cripple the Su-27 like it is currently the situation; no ER's/DL, while most enemy fighters are Mirages with better radar missiles outranging my R-27's then it's not fun any more. So to solve the problem we simply add Mirages to Red?! Why don't we just get rid of the Flankers and the Eagles then? If it had been only Su-27's vs F-15's like some rounds ago then fine, no ER's/DL. I'm sick of having both teams with the same planes/helicopters just to "balance" the game. It DOESN'T! NEVER HAS! It only leads to flying the same aircrafts but in different teams rendering the actual dedicated planes/helicopters unattended. I mean, you guys try everything to somehow solve the balance problem so why not do it like it was before once when Russian planes flew only on the Red side and vice versa? It's even more challenging and demanding! Isn't that what we want? Or do we just wanna give everyone everything? Like in "everyone is a winner, children, you are all awesome!". God, I hate populism.

[M0ltar]

I like the idea of greater emphasis on the Mig21 and F5. Move rhe modern jets away from the front line.

I do like the idea of lengthening flight times and moving the server further away from air quake. Makes budgeting fuel, time on station, and distance to ao much more important.

[lemoen]

So we're back at it with balance issues.

 

Never thought players would rather join the outnumbering team as posted here by some of you. I myself love the challenge of being the underdog so I've always joined Red. However if you cripple the Su-27 like it is currently the situation; no ER's/DL, while most enemy fighters are Mirages with better radar missiles outranging my R-27's then it's not fun any more. So to solve the problem we simply add Mirages to Red?! Why don't we just get rid of the Flankers and the Eagles then? If it had been only Su-27's vs F-15's like some rounds ago then fine, no ER's/DL. I'm sick of having both teams with the same planes/helicopters just to "balance" the game. It DOESN'T! NEVER HAS! It only leads to flying the same aircrafts but in different teams rendering the actual dedicated planes/helicopters unattended. I mean, you guys try everything to somehow solve the balance problem so why not do it like it was before once when Russian planes flew only on the Red side and vice versa? It's even more challenging and demanding! Isn't that what we want? Or do we just wanna give everyone everything? Like in "everyone is a winner, children, you are all awesome!". God, I hate populism.

 

 

 

A bit strongly worded maybe. Kudos for not using the word 'millennial'.

 

I feel that we should strongly look at CrashO's suggestion. It gives both sides their fully functional weapons (for Flanker / F15 and Mirage) and also keeps the high-tech fighters (F15 / Flanker / Mirage) further from the front lines, creating an associated 'cost' to using them instead of Mig-21 / F-5. This will likely sit better with everyone than the nerfing we currently have. It'll also make fuel a more important consideration and it will necessitate teamwork in order coordinate CAS / CAP.

[lemoen]

I do like the idea of lengthening flight times and moving the server further away from air quake. Makes budgeting fuel, time on station, and distance to ao much more important.

 

+1

[amazingme]

So we're back at it with balance issues.

 

Never thought players would rather join the outnumbering team as posted here by some of you. I myself love the challenge of being the underdog so I've always joined Red. However if you cripple the Su-27 like it is currently the situation; no ER's/DL, while most enemy fighters are Mirages with better radar missiles outranging my R-27's then it's not fun any more. So to solve the problem we simply add Mirages to Red?! Why don't we just get rid of the Flankers and the Eagles then? If it had been only Su-27's vs F-15's like some rounds ago then fine, no ER's/DL. I'm sick of having both teams with the same planes/helicopters just to "balance" the game. It DOESN'T! NEVER HAS! It only leads to flying the same aircrafts but in different teams rendering the actual dedicated planes/helicopters unattended. I mean, you guys try everything to somehow solve the balance problem so why not do it like it was before once when Russian planes flew only on the Red side and vice versa? It's even more challenging and demanding! Isn't that what we want? Or do we just wanna give everyone everything? Like in "everyone is a winner, children, you are all awesome!". God, I hate populism.

I perfectly agree with you. The problem again are.. the people. You can't make everybody happy, plus, the minority must suffer because majority wants something. Until this philosophical problem is solved we'll bump our heads into the same wall over and over again.

 

I played BF when the Blue had the 120s and I had a lot of fun even if I got shot down almost at every sortie, then I played all the subsequent BFs rounds having the same amount of fun even when the Mirage was bugged and could out turn itself, the bottom line is.. balance is for noobs. I joined the red and remained red, "not because it's easy, but because it's hard" .. sounds familiar?

[lemoen]

I perfectly agree with you. The problem again are.. the people. You can't make everybody happy, plus, the minority must suffer because majority wants something. Until this philosophical problem is solved we'll bump our heads into the same wall over and over again.

 

I played BF when the Blue had the 120s and I had a lot of fun even if I got shot down almost at every sortie, then I played all the subsequent BFs rounds having the same amount of fun even when the Mirage was bugged and could out turn itself, the bottom line is.. balance is for noobs. I joined the red and remained red, "not because it's easy, but because it's hard" .. sounds familiar?

 

Its very noble to see it that way but the point is not having to deal with massive imbalance all the time. One may have to do that, depending on the time of day you are online but overall, in terms of the ongoing battle for territory in Blue Flag, Red and Blue should be balanced and the team with better team work and strategy should win. This may well mean that one team has a lot more air to air kills than the other team. Most importantly I think it should be 1. fun for the majority and 2. operate in terms of the spirit of blue flag

[-Painter-]

I do like the idea of lengthening flight times and moving the server further away from air quake. Makes budgeting fuel, time on station, and distance to ao much more important.

 

+1

[firmek]

So we're back at it with balance issues.

 

Never thought players would rather join the outnumbering team as posted here by some of you. I myself love the challenge of being the underdog so I've always joined Red. However if you cripple the Su-27 like it is currently the situation; no ER's/DL, while most enemy fighters are Mirages with better radar missiles outranging my R-27's then it's not fun any more. So to solve the problem we simply add Mirages to Red?! Why don't we just get rid of the Flankers and the Eagles then? If it had been only Su-27's vs F-15's like some rounds ago then fine, no ER's/DL. I'm sick of having both teams with the same planes/helicopters just to "balance" the game. It DOESN'T! NEVER HAS! It only leads to flying the same aircrafts but in different teams rendering the actual dedicated planes/helicopters unattended. I mean, you guys try everything to somehow solve the balance problem so why not do it like it was before once when Russian planes flew only on the Red side and vice versa? It's even more challenging and demanding! Isn't that what we want? Or do we just wanna give everyone everything? Like in "everyone is a winner, children, you are all awesome!". God, I hate populism.

+1. Really, there are already enough "all vs all" servers out there, actually so many that those with sides having dedicated native airframes are not so easy to find. Anyway, I agree with above, assigning the planes to both sides just because people were claiming that they'll not fly either side since their favorite module is not there doesn't seem to have any effect. On the other side it only waters the immersion IMO.

Maybe we'll finally agree that nothing changes, people like to stack-up on the numbers. At the moment I'm sure everyone takes a decision about joining a side with full understanding of the consequences. I'll join blue to play a team with higher numbers or I like to play it the hard way and join red.

The only way to address it would be to introduce system directly or indirectly (through number of lives) making the player numbers even.

 

I do like the idea of lengthening flight times and moving the server further away from air quake. Makes budgeting fuel, time on station, and distance to ao much more important.

+1. This could even seem to be more natural. I mean having the interceptors closer to the front-line. I would even suggest to decrease the numbers of available slots to make every aircraft count: F-5/MiG-21 closest to the front, highest numbers of available slots. MiG-29/M-2000C further airbases, medium numbers and F-15C/Su-27 the least slots maybe even only in a single the most further airbases like Batumi/Krasnodar.

[IASGATG]

Regarding "balancing" Blueflag, the biggest problem you run into is player base beyond anything else; not even so much in "what the player base wants" but rather population.

 

In early rounds of BF before a lot of the aircraft that are in the game weren't, and it had unrestricted payloads, the biggest gripes were "120's are too hard to play against" and "Blue outnumbers Red".

 

The first problem is actually an extension of the second problem, and this will get compounded as you'll see as we go on.

 

We stripped out the 120's and the 77's and we did ER's vs 7M's which didn't last long before we fell to R's vs 7M's. We moved the Frogfoot and Kamov around trying to get a decent balance for the A2G side of things, but it still boiled down to player base. You still got big swings when one team outnumbered the other.

 

If you strip the "heavy fighters" back even more, limiting the Eagles and Flankers and even limiting the Mirages, and increase the "light fighters" 21's/F-5's, you compound the problem further.

 

How many people fly F-5 or -21 vs 27 or F-15?

 

In each of these cases, the problem of balance would be resolved if 10x as many people played MP DCS. In the early days when slammers ruled the skies, the number of Eagle's or slammers could be limited and you could have a 6v10 sort of set up, because you could reliably pull from the player base the extra flankers.

 

As you limit the popular jets more and more to try and get this more "real world" 100 MiG-21's vs 15 F-15's with slammers, you run into the wall of bums on seats.

 

The other misconception is the idea of "joining the team with the most people", which is pretty much nonsense. Everyone gets a huge boner for being the underdog. People fly what they like to fly, it could be red, blue, green or pink. Flankerbros will fly Flankers, Eagledrivers drive Eagles and the French fly Mirage's. This all stems from the fact you have higher ratio of people that like F-15's to Su-27's and because we have only 200-300 online players that it shows.

 

Sorry for the long ramble but until DCS becomes "Main Stream", which it won't, this problem is always going to exist.

[*Rage*]

I dont recall any rounds where it was ER vs 7M.

 

I also think the player base is there for more 21 vs F5 emphasis. At least if the recent Red flags/Rumbles are anything to go by. That matchup is also much more naturally balanced. Worth a try at least. If it fails then we can always return to M2Quake:)

 

Edit: Server where art thou?

[IASGATG]

I dont recall any rounds where it was ER vs 7M.

 

I also think the player base is there for more 21 vs F5 emphasis. At least if the recent Red flags/Rumbles are anything to go by. That matchup is also much more naturally balanced. Worth a try at least. If it fails then we can always return to M2Quake:)

 

Edit: Server where art thou?

 

Maybe it never went to a live round and was just a test round? I could be misremembering, it was a year or so ago.

 

You say that the player base is there, and perhaps you'd know better than I? But in these events, how many people sign up? Are you talking like 15 MiG's and 15 Tiger's, or are you talking like 50 and 50? Because you need those sorts of numbers before you can make 70% of the fighters third gen on Blueflag.

[mia389]

Moving fighters back is great but then you have to bring in the rearm time and fuel to the equation.

 

Fly a mi29 and su27 to front line and then land,rearm and refuel. Do the same with F15. Pretty even in my book. Specially if using rearm bug on su27s.

 

Now do that in a mirage.....

 

 

Somehow the "interceptor" has the best time on station. It will not solve the problem of Mirage fest until F15s get amraams and su27s get DL.

[-Painter-]

@BF admins: BF server is still down.

I am not complaining - it is just... my evening has no meaning without your amazing server :D

[iLOVEwindmills]

So now we've gotten the random nerfs for the M2K out the way that changed nothing, can we try that neat trick where we buff the thing we want to see more of by giving FC3 fighters fuel.

 

They're already gimped enough.

 

I'll show myself the door.