Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

[CrashO]

First thing: BVR does not mean active radar homing (ARH), it means beyond visual range. Sparrows are BVR missile just like AMRAAMs. But I guess you knew that. ;)

Well, I used it as a umbrella for all the long range stuff. Seeing the ET is used for BVR (and is RED's favorite toy) but is not ARH. :D But I think everyone gets it, regardless of the label being used.

[AbortedMan]

First thing: BVR does not mean active radar homing (ARH), it means beyond visual range. Sparrows are BVR missile just like AMRAAMs. But I guess you knew that. ;)

 

I could live with ARH missiles beeing available at Batumi and Anapa, as a last resort for defenders, but I dislike the idea to make them available at the front line.

Your concept would also make the current Interceptors completly useless with ARH missiles in the air and the M2000 beeing available everywhere.

 

So no, I don't like this idea.

 

No one is referencing only ARH missiles...they're referencing the longer than 10 mile range missiles which aren't all ARH. 27ER, 27ET...They are SARH and IR at BVR (Ideally) to include AIM120 and R77 in that BVR group. I can see aircraft at 10 miles.

Edited June 28, 2017 by AbortedMan

[QuiGon]

No one is referencing only ARH missiles...they're referencing the longer than 10 mile range missiles which aren't all ARH. 27ER, 27ET...They are SARH and IR at BVR (Ideally) to include AIM120 and R77 in that BVR group. I can see aircraft at 10 miles.

 

The Sparrow is designated as a BVR missile too.

But this is not really the point of the discussion here. As CrashO said, everyone gets what is beeing meant.

[lemoen]

As much as it hurts me to say this, the interceptors are pretty useless as it is. The Mig-21 is mildly better than the F5 because it can actually see things on the radar sometimes, has enough missiles and has IFF but it has a rubbish RWR and the F5 is effectively a fast P51 with 2 missiles and a ground detection radar. It has a nice RWR though.

 

Also, the ground targets in BF are still too tough and too small to bomb and rocket successfully with F5s and Mig21s, even Viggens and M2000 are kinda useless for that, and again we're stuck with precision weaponry. So these planes are less useful in this scenario too. They're only really good at gunning down helos in this scenario.

 

Also with BVR missiles we were talking about ARH missiles.

[QuiGon]

As much as it hurts me to say this, the interceptors are pretty useless as it is. The Mig-21 is mildly better than the F5 because it can actually see things on the radar sometimes, has enough missiles and has IFF but it has a rubbish RWR and the F5 is effectively a fast P51 with 2 missiles and a ground detection radar. It has a nice RWR though.

You got a point there. I like these planes but it's difficult to bring them to good use in BlueFlag (still waiting for the long announced Korean Blue Flag ;)). Still, there are some cases where they can be useful, especially when the front line moved far away from the border. With ARH missiles beeing used and M2000s beeing available everywhere it would finally make these interceptors completly usless.

 

Also, the ground targets in BF are still too tough and too small to bomb and rocket successfully with F5s and Mig21s, even Viggens and M2000 are kinda useless for that, and again we're stuck with precision weaponry. So these planes are less useful in this scenario too. They're only really good at gunning down helos in this scenario.

Well, the Viggen is equipped with the BK90 which is a precision weapon. But yeah, apart from that it's indeed difficult with the tiny targets protected by AAA or even IR-SAMs. I sometimes take some bombs with me when flying CAP with the M2000 though, because I can sometimes use them to assist in striking by dropping them on bunkers.

 

Also with BVR missiles we were talking about ARH missiles.

[CrashO]

With ARH missiles beeing used and M2000s beeing available everywhere it would finally make these interceptors completly usless.

You could limit the Mirages a little bit, by changing the spawning everywhere to just the "home bases". And have the F-5 and 21 spawn from any of the captured bases. To give a small edge to them. Pretty much how it was in the last round. Just with some more home spawns for the mirage. (or make the mirage available at limited "captured bases". So not at every one of them, but for example 1 in each corner. So something like Mozdok and Krasnodar on the red side, and Vaziani and Senaki on the blue. And populate all other captured airfields with F-5's and Mig-21's.

Edited June 28, 2017 by CrashO

[Jman]

I think blue needs all the help they can get. The regulars play red... and I just watched RVE and AXE steam roll four air bases in the south in less than two hours. It was pretty impressive if you like 11 v 2 odds.

 

TJ

 

 

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Registered Pilots: 247 RED 331 BLUE

 

Not sure why the numbers matter, I feel like the complaints continue because of "outnumbering" but I've seen several sessions that blue has out numbered red with bigger numbers. The truth is it happens every round, I understand you may have recently started flying BlueFlag but its something that has always been a problem.

 

We've flown blue many times, as far as balancing its impossible as you have pilots that fly different time zones and this concept of "having even numbers" is impossible. Just look at the number registered pilots.

 

You could limit the Mirages a little bit, by changing the spawning everywhere to just the "home bases". And have the F-5 and 21 spawn from any of the captured bases. To give a small edge to them. Pretty much how it was in the last round. Just with some more home spawns for the mirage.

 

Mirages are only available at home bases? Just as they've been for the past testing rounds.

 

Agree with the interceptors, they used to be available in forward bases and added some interactions up front instead of having to wait for cap to fly over 100+nm.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Jman

[CrashO]

Mirages are only available at home bases? Just as they've been for the past testing rounds.

You're mixing reactions on my proposed changes, to reactions on the current scenario. The change from all-bases to only-home bases, was for the scenario where BVR bases with all toys are given to F-15's and flankers, and the mirage would get spawns at every base (together with the other interceptors).

 

And while the mirage currently is available at home bases only, it's not available at every one. If Gudata is lost, you still have to fly 80nm from the closest spawn because they are not at Sukhumi. Which works for know, but is going to be a problem when we have spamraam's flying around.

 

My goal was to make it more layered. Have BVR aircraft with heavy AA flying around from the back,. with limited lives. Have Interceptors (mirage,21, F5) with more lives, close to the front. And with the new change, have the 21 and F-5 even closer to the active front, by having them spawn at captured based. All without limiting aircraft's capabilities by messing with fuel, alignments or load-outs.

 

In case of the blue team:

The 2 satellite-airfields where M2000C can spawn (when captured), are to add something stronger then the F-5 closer to hostile territory. I just picked these airfields at random, as long as they are in the back of red space. Might also be a option to take for example "Anapa" as the Mirage spawn base (RED's main BVR base). Creating a tactical option of pushing up the coast first to get it (so you can spawn mirages), before pushing Krymsk, Kras and Maykop). Or even allowing to re-arm the BVR fighters there if you have captured it. Seeing as it's red's main base, with heavy AA fighters and lying deep into red territory. It's going to take a huge push to get to it, but with a big reward looming.

Edited June 28, 2017 by CrashO

[Tj1376]

Also, the ground targets in BF are still too tough and too small to bomb and rocket successfully with F5s and Mig21s, even Viggens and M2000 are kinda useless for that, and again we're stuck with precision weaponry. So these planes are less useful in this scenario too. They're only really good at gunning down helos in this scenario.

 

 

 

 

Well, the Viggen is equipped with the BK90 which is a precision weapon. But yeah, apart from that it's indeed difficult with the tiny targets protected by AAA or even IR-SAMs. I sometimes take some bombs with me when flying CAP with the M2000 though, because I can sometimes use them to assist in striking by dropping them on bunkers.

 

 

The Viggen is a precision strike package and very useful. Several of us have become very effective in helping a strike package with this airframe.

 

The problem with the viggen is you need three or four of them to be effective as the BK90 still isn't there yet in Multiplayer (it's just a big bomb.)

 

Registered Pilots: 247 RED 331 BLUE

 

Not sure why the numbers matter, I feel like the complaints continue because of "outnumbering" but I've seen several sessions that blue has out numbered red with bigger numbers. The truth is it happens every round, I understand you may have recently started flying BlueFlag but its something that has always been a problem.

 

We've flown blue many times, as far as balancing its impossible as you have pilots that fly different time zones and this concept of "having even numbers" is impossible. Just look at the number registered pilots..

 

 

I agree that the overall numbers of pilots don't matter. I've actually said this before several times. What really matters is the average number of active minutes a player plays divided by total time in server. This would give you a "batting average" of each side and show you where the most active players play.

 

You could also develop this stat by airframe to help improve the lives system and make it more dynamic to limit airquake.

 

TJ

 

 

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[iLOVEwindmills]

It would be good to have 2xintercepter and 2xstrikers at all captured bases at the very least, like before. Probably would be good to add a few helis to this as well. Currently a ton of bases have literally nothing when you capture them aside from a TF51.

[lemoen]

The Viggen has BK90s and Mavs, I know this but because the ground stuff respawns so quickly, its kinda moot whether I bomb them or not. I can take out maybe 4 bunkers max and fly back. By the time I'm back at base the FARP is close to respawning. I guess that's the point of forcing teamwork, however, also, the Viggen needs coordinates and stuff moves around. It gets pretty tedious to keep unzipping the track file and reading coordinates from it. There MUST be a better way :-)

[Frostie]

MiG21 and F5 have a role when your fighter lives expire adding them to captured airbases would make a lot of sense.

 

Full payloads at Batumi and Anapa seems great from the outset but towards endgame it would become bonkers, imagine trying to push an already stretched CAP into Georgia against endless AIM-120s. Interceptors would go right out of the window and Strikers wouldn't stand a chance.

[M0ltar]

MiG21 and F5 have a role when your fighter lives expire adding them to captured airbases would make a lot of sense.

 

Full payloads at Batumi and Anapa seems great from the outset but towards endgame it would become bonkers, imagine trying to push an already stretched CAP into Georgia against endless AIM-120s. Interceptors would go right out of the window and Strikers wouldn't stand a chance.

Maybe as the front extends there would be a script that would move the rearm base forward just a bit after a certain point?

Edited June 28, 2017 by M0ltar

[CrashO]

With 2 lives per 6 hours for fighters. It would be a matter of dragging and bagging them before moving in. It's not endless. Hard, yes. Impossibruu, shouldn't be.

 

Might have to reevaluate the lives per group when fighters get their toys, but to me 2 for those with 120C/ET/ER vs 4 for interceptors seems fair (or maybe 3-5)

Edited June 28, 2017 by CrashO

[microvax]

If we allow full weaponry from certain bases just have them linked to $factory at the frontline somewhere, have it depend on a close to frontline storage depot or something like that.

 

That way the side on the defence ist going to get advanced handholding against already extendend hostile fighters.

 

 

I still think the 120/27E* series range is too long for the tiny distances between objectives though.

[Ciribob]

How was lag after restart 21:30 ish UTC / GMT last night?

 

I removed all saved dropped units and AA systems and restarted server PC.

 

Did it improve?

 

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Edited June 28, 2017 by Ciribob

[Tj1376]

How was lag after restart 21:30 ish UTC / GMT last night?

 

I removed all saved dropped units and AA systems and restarted server PC.

 

Did it improve?

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Ah! That's why red could steam roll the south. We lost all of our man pads! ;)

 

It was significantly better on 6/26 @ 130a UTC (when red steam rolled the south)

 

I hope it wasn't because of all the units. I really love the new dynamic!

 

TJ

 

 

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[M0ltar]

Ah! That's why red could steam roll the south. We lost all of our man pads! ;)

 

It was significantly better on 6/26 @ 130a UTC (when red steam rolled the south)

 

I hope it wasn't because of all the units. I really love the new dynamic!

 

TJ

 

 

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I like the new dynamic, I just think there needs to be a limit to how many. Newest manpad removes oldest for example.

[Tj1376]

I like the new dynamic, I just think there needs to be a limit to how many. Newest manpad removes oldest for example.

 

 

 

I can't like posts so I'm going to post that I agree with this.

 

TJ

 

 

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[Ciribob]

I like the new dynamic, I just think there needs to be a limit to how many. Newest manpad removes oldest for example.

I described implementation earlier in thread, just haven't had time to build it yet :)

 

Will be timer based - different length per unit type and they won't be removed mid round, only at restart.

 

If you lagged out the server, how many manpads did you guys build?

 

Manpad Maginot line?

 

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[M0ltar]

I described implementation earlier in thread, just haven't had time to build it yet :)

 

Will be timer based - different length per unit type and they won't be removed mid round, only at restart.

 

If you lagged out the server, how many manpads did you guys build?

 

Manpad Maginot line?

 

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The timer though doesn't stop people from just constantly airlifting out new units. If the timer is long enough won't we run into similar issues? I still think there needs to be a hard limit to stop the server from taking a dump like it did. Like what someone said earlier, there were, from someone else's observation, tons of EWRs for blue around Sukumi.

 

I like the timer idea, I just still think without a hard cap, even if it's high, we would still run into the same issues.

[Ciribob]

The timer though doesn't stop people from just constantly airlifting out new units. If the timer is long enough won't we run into similar issues? I still think there needs to be a hard limit to stop the server from taking a dump like it did. Like what someone said earlier, there were, from someone else's observation, tons of EWRs for blue around Sukumi.

 

I like the timer idea, I just still think without a hard cap, even if it's high, we would still run I'm to the same issues.

I'm not saying no to it - there used to be a cap on AA systems for that reason too. Just doing timer first .

 

If it still lags after a while, I can then see what the number is that's too many and set an appropriate limit under that number.

 

Kinda assumed people wouldn't spend 3 hours dropping manpads in an area but maybe they will! We will find out :)

 

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[Thrud]

Gazzelle L bug. When you spawn in one they spawn with 100% fuel & ammo which makes them overweight. Since the spawn point aren't near the FARP, you can't correct it in the rearming screen. Is it possible to set the fuel @ %90 at spawn? The current work around is to squeeze off the gun ammo until your within you weight and balance.

 

Also back to the "RED has 2 troop ships and Blue has 1" issue. Example:

I picked the Oni FARP because it's easy to spell.

-Red Troop Ships = 4 (2 Mi-8 + 2 UH-1)

-Blue troops ships = 2 (2 UH-1)

 

If you're not going to give Gazelles troops or remove Red UH-1's, at least make the troops ships the same amount. Add more UH-1 slots to places for parity.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Thrud

[M0ltar]

I'm not saying no to it - there used to be a cap on AA systems for that reason too. Just doing timer first .

 

If it still lags after a while, I can then see what the number is that's too many and set an appropriate limit under that number.

 

Kinda assumed people wouldn't spend 3 hours dropping manpads in an area but maybe they will! We will find out :)

 

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I think its really hard without a GCI on to tell how many are out there and where they are. There could be a ton of manpads deployed, but if GCI is midnight and a new player gets on they may think none are deployed and go for it.

[iLOVEwindmills]

I'm not saying no to it - there used to be a cap on AA systems for that reason too. Just doing timer first .

 

If it still lags after a while, I can then see what the number is that's too many and set an appropriate limit under that number.

 

Kinda assumed people wouldn't spend 3 hours dropping manpads in an area but maybe they will! We will find out :)

 

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I'm pretty sure that's exactly what people were doing. There was essentially a wall of manpads between contested areas last days.

 

I think it would be good to be conservative with the amount of ground units allowed. We can debate about particulars all day but lag/warps makes it impossible for me to enjoy anything about it.