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Lossing It!!


Captain Orso
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Your rockets I mean ;)

 

A video was shared on the DCS FB page https://www.facebook.com/ofantasticomundodaaviacao/videos/1691619531094638/

 

In it you see some crash landings and mishaps of different A/C on CV's. In some of them you see the landing A/C losing rockets they were carrying, which they apparently could not jettison before landing.

 

Has anybody ever seen this happen while belly-landing the 'Stang?

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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It's currently some times dangerous when some guys showing his expertise in landing and take off on normal runways in his WW2 birds on the server.

Beware good there now laying Rockets on the Runway and taxiway seem's quite explosive atmosphere :shocking:

Think this boys at the time was not so quit well trained as today, was more learning by doing, was surprised the hellcat with no gear drop his plane in to the see, and the corsair pilot with only one gear out try the deck landing.

Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

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Pilots themselves did not decide on whether they would land on the deck or ditch i the sea; the Deck Officer would decide that.

 

The DO had to weigh the dangers of allowing a damaged A/C to attempt to land, vs dangers to the pilot to ditch, also considering how long it would take to clear the deck for landings again, once a damaged A/C "crash" landed on it.

 

The Hellcat which ditched in the sea, from the film it's not possible to tell if the film was taking from an aircraft carrier or from another ship. It may have simply been an A/C which ran out of fuel and ditched near the ship from which the film was made, so that the pilot could be rescued quickly.

 

Hypothetically, rockets lost on landing should not necessarily be in danger of exploding, because they should not be armed, but I'm sure I'd not want to be part of the crew to have to recover them :cry:

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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Pilots themselves did not decide on whether they would land on the deck or ditch i the sea; the Deck Officer would decide that.

 

The DO had to weigh the dangers of allowing a damaged A/C to attempt to land, vs dangers to the pilot to ditch, also considering how long it would take to clear the deck for landings again, once a damaged A/C "crash" landed on it.

 

The Hellcat which ditched in the sea, from the film it's not possible to tell if the film was taking from an aircraft carrier or from another ship. It may have simply been an A/C which ran out of fuel and ditched near the ship from which the film was made, so that the pilot could be rescued quickly.

 

Hypothetically, rockets lost on landing should not necessarily be in danger of exploding, because they should not be armed, but I'm sure I'd not want to be part of the crew to have to recover them :cry:

 

Are you positive about that? I believe the rockets functioned differently than the bombs. As far as I know, with the HVAR, you only switch on the igniter preferences (single or salvo) and if a rocket departs the aircraft I think it has a good chance of exploding.

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IIRC when setting the weapons selector switch from Safe to Rocket it arms all the rockets and opens the circuits to the igniters, with the rocket control dial and thumb button interposing.

 

Not being able to arm and disarm them from the cockpit would be extremely dangerous; we would probably have dozens of YT videos of P-51's exploding on the ground from premature rocket detonation :doh:

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

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IIRC when setting the weapons selector switch from Safe to Rocket it arms all the rockets and opens the circuits to the igniters, with the rocket control dial and thumb button interposing.

 

Not being able to arm and disarm them from the cockpit would be extremely dangerous; we would probably have dozens of YT videos of P-51's exploding on the ground from premature rocket detonation :doh:

 

If that was the case then why would you also have to arm the bombs with a second set of switches as they are on that same 4-way selector that you are referring to? I tried to do some searching on the topic and couldn't find anything referring to the act of arming an HVAR. I could be wrong...but I'd like to see something definitive.

 

While we are on the subject... anyone have any documents showing HVARs on a P-51 outside of Korea? Just another curiosity.

 

 

EDIT:

Found some good info. There is some great info included in the Navy Ordinanceman's Manual 1959 (NAVAER 00-80T-65) Section 5-68

 

I believe the most likely fuze on the HVAR we would see would be the Nose Fuze Mk 149 Mod 0. The rocket arms and is detonated by the forces imparted on the fuze mechanism. As it travels over 900mph those forces are substantial and an accidental det would be unlikely with a properly functioning fuze from what I've read. That being said, I wouldn't be the guy volunteering to test that theory.


Edited by Merlin-27

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If that was the case then why would you also have to arm the bombs with a second set of switches as they are on that same 4-way selector that you are referring to? I tried to do some searching on the topic and couldn't find anything referring to the act of arming an HVAR. I could be wrong...but I'd like to see something definitive.

 

While we are on the subject... anyone have any documents showing HVARs on a P-51 outside of Korea? Just another curiosity.

 

 

EDIT:

Found some good info. There is some great info included in the Navy Ordinanceman's Manual 1959 (NAVAER 00-80T-65) Section 5-68

 

I believe the most likely fuze on the HVAR we would see would be the Nose Fuze Mk 149 Mod 0. The rocket arms and is detonated by the forces imparted on the fuze mechanism. As it travels over 900mph those forces are substantial and an accidental det would be unlikely with a properly functioning fuze from what I've read. That being said, I wouldn't be the guy volunteering to test that theory.

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/variants/p51d

 

This site says that with D25 attachments for rockets were added. I also watched a documentary where pilot said that they would go and attack airfields with rockets during the last day of the war. So seems that they could have been used in the pacific, but I have yet to see any data on use in Europe :book:

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25th May 1945 was day when 7th AF Mustans, 78th FS, used first time HVAR during mission against airfields in the Tokyo area.

5th AF Mustangs used them too.

IMHO Mustangs in ETO did not use them.

1781527853_JamesBTappofthe78thFighterSquadronandhisP-51DMargaretIVonIwoJima1945.thumb.jpg.5aa756a911255933130d0e909df044c9.jpg

1711661925_340thFS348thFG.jpg.2c56d4be74562e2fbfa8b5a622da675f.jpg

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http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/variants/p51d

 

This site says that with D25 attachments for rockets were added. I also watched a documentary where pilot said that they would go and attack airfields with rockets during the last day of the war. So seems that they could have been used in the pacific, but I have yet to see any data on use in Europe :book:

 

25th May 1945 was day when 7th AF Mustans, 78th FS, used first time HVAR during mission against airfields in the Tokyo area.

5th AF Mustangs used them too.

IMHO Mustangs in ETO did not use them.

 

Roger. Thanks guys... just have always wondered about it and never found much. I know the HVAR was introduced around the same time as the Normandy invasion but I'm only familiar with it's use on the P-47.

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If that was the case then why would you also have to arm the bombs with a second set of switches as they are on that same 4-way selector that you are referring to? I tried to do some searching on the topic and couldn't find anything referring to the act of arming an HVAR. I could be wrong...but I'd like to see something definitive.

 

mmmm k, you made me work for this one.

 

Management Summery

 

The HVAR fuze arms itself after the engine is ignited and approximately half of the propellant burning time is consumed.

 

Source: Navy Department Bureau of Ordnance, Ordnance Pamphlet 1017 (2nd rev.), Fuzes for Rockets and Projector Charge, Chapter 8 Base fuzes for fin stabilized aircraft rockets, Section 3 Functioning, p.66

Document may be downloaded here: www.lexpev.nl/downloads/fuzesforrocketsprojectors1948.pdf

 

While we are on the subject... anyone have any documents showing HVARs on a P-51 outside of Korea? Just another curiosity.

 

This video contains P-51D's over Japan firing HVAR's.

 

${1}

 

EDIT:

Found some good info. There is some great info included in the Navy Ordinanceman's Manual 1959 (NAVAER 00-80T-65) Section 5-68

 

I believe the most likely fuze on the HVAR we would see would be the Nose Fuze Mk 149 Mod 0. The rocket arms and is detonated by the forces imparted on the fuze mechanism. As it travels over 900mph those forces are substantial and an accidental det would be unlikely with a properly functioning fuze from what I've read. That being said, I wouldn't be the guy volunteering to test that theory.

 

No, it arms per my description above. Read chapter 8, section 3 of the linked pamphlet for the full description.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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mmmm k, you made me work for this one.

 

No, it arms per my description above. Read chapter 8, section 3 of the linked pamphlet for the full description.

 

I will respectfully disagree.

I'd read the "pamphlet" but it's a non-functioning hyperlink.

 

From what I can see you are assuming all HVAR rockets used a base fuze, which would be absolutely incorrect. My description is specifically of a Nose Fuze Mk 149 Mod 0 as I indicated in my post. Both types can be present on a single HVAR 5" rocket. The arming and detonation process is quite complex and is fully described in detail within the document I referenced. Either way, I think we agree that the rocket's detonator is armed in-flight and not by any selector switch. Even if the arming wire is removed and the nose cap falls away the impeller will not spin until the forces of the rockets typical flight engage multiple components within the fuze.

 

 

Now you made ME work :D

 

 

mk149-info.jpg

 

mk149-diagram.jpg


Edited by Merlin-27

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I will respectfully disagree.

I'd read the "pamphlet" but it's a non-functioning hyperlink.

 

Sorry for the bad link; I don't like posting google search links, but here goes: OP 1017 Fuzes for Rockets and Projector charges

 

Aslo, if you google search for "fuzes for rockets and projector charge" (with the quotes) you should get it as the first find. The link I posted yesterday is the directly link from the google search. Yesterday it worked, but I couldn't get it to work today either :(

 

From what I can see you are assuming all HVAR rockets used a base fuze, which would be absolutely incorrect. My description is specifically of a Nose Fuze Mk 149 Mod 0 as I indicated in my post. Both types can be present on a single HVAR 5" rocket. The arming and detonation process is quite complex and is fully described in detail within the document I referenced. Either way, I think we agree that the rocket's detonator is armed in-flight and not by any selector switch. Even if the arming wire is removed and the nose cap falls away the impeller will not spin until the forces of the rockets typical flight engage multiple components within the fuze.

 

 

Now you made ME work :D

 

 

mk149-info.jpg

 

mk149-diagram.jpg

 

I'll have to find the other document I was reading yesterday about the HVAR. It's where I found the reference to the Mk 149 Mod 0/1 fuze, which I googled to find the fuze manual.

 

You may also want to have a look at this: rockets, 5 inch (hvar) - MOTIS Ordnance Category

 

It notes the different types of HVAR's; there were a number or different types: HVAR HE (Mk 6 war head with Mk 149 Mod 0 or 1 nose fuze and Mk 164 base fuze), HVAR AT (Mk 25 Mod 1 war head wtih Mk 149 Mod 0 nose fuze only), HVAR Practice, and HVAR Dummy.

 

My understanding is that what we have if the HVAR HE, which has BOTH the nose and base fuse, which can be set to 'instant' or 'delayed' (0.020 sec. delay).

 

But regardless, with regards to landing/crash landing with rockets attached, they should not detonate, because they only arm after launch. From my understanding, only a relatively minor force is necessary to remove them from their mounting (eg during firing), which appears to be illustrated by the F6F Hellcat in the video I posted losing at least 2 HVAR's from it's right wing after being caught on an arrestor line at 1:14.

 

The same Hellcat can apparently be seen from another angle with a bit more lead time at 1:20, where you can see even better how it loses the two right rockets (the only two it was carrying) upon getting caught by the arrestor line.

 

SoOoOo, back to my original question, has anybody seen the P-51D lose HVAR's on crash landing?

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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Also, I read somewhere that the delay was to allow for penetration of the target before detonation, and somewhere I read about the HVAR being able to penetrate a whole lot of concrete.

 

I've never used the delay, but I remember playing an MP mission in which we had to attack an armored column with mostly APC's but also 1 or 2 T-72, which were not affected by HVAR's. I'm now wondering if hitting a T-72 with the HVAR set on delay might penetrate Think.gif

 

Looks like I've got some test missions to set up :huh:

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

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Sorry for the bad link...

 

You may also want to have a look at this: rockets, 5 inch (hvar) - MOTIS Ordnance Category

 

It notes the different types of HVAR's; there were a number or different types: HVAR HE (Mk 6 war head with Mk 149 Mod 0 or 1 nose fuze and Mk 164 base fuze), HVAR AT (Mk 25 Mod 1 war head wtih Mk 149 Mod 0 nose fuze only), HVAR Practice, and HVAR Dummy.

 

My understanding is that what we have if the HVAR HE, which has BOTH the nose and base fuse, which can be set to 'instant' or 'delayed' (0.020 sec. delay).

 

But regardless, with regards to landing/crash landing with rockets attached, they should not detonate, because they only arm after launch. From my understanding, only a relatively minor force is necessary to remove them from their mounting (eg during firing), which appears to be illustrated by the F6F Hellcat in the video I posted losing at least 2 HVAR's from it's right wing after being caught on an arrestor line at 1:14.

 

The same Hellcat can apparently be seen from another angle with a bit more lead time at 1:20, where you can see even better how it loses the two right rockets (the only two it was carrying) upon getting caught by the arrestor line.

 

No problem about the link. I'm familiar with most of the pages you have referenced.

 

There are some difference between the launchers used for HVARS. But each one has shear pins in place that will fail if an impact is strong enough. They are there to allow the rocket to release if the latch mechanism fails during launch.

 

You should check out that Navy Ordinanceman's Guide if you haven't yet. It has much more information than the summaries you have posted.

 

Also, I read somewhere that the delay was to allow for penetration of the target before detonation, and somewhere I read about the HVAR being able to penetrate a whole lot of concrete.

 

I've never used the delay, but I remember playing an MP mission in which we had to attack an armored column with mostly APC's but also 1 or 2 T-72, which were not affected by HVAR's. I'm now wondering if hitting a T-72 with the HVAR set on delay might penetrate Think.gif

 

Looks like I've got some test missions to set up :huh:

 

Yes, a number of HVAR head configurations were possible and I'd agree that is most likely the HE Rocket Head Mk 6 that we have in the sim.

 

The best HVAR to use on the T-72 would be the ATAR...which was developed for the Korean war. A precursor of the HEAT round. I don't think we have that option though.

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8<

You should check out that Navy Ordinanceman's Guide if you haven't yet. It has much more information than the summaries you have posted.

8<

Do you have a link to the Ordnanceman's Guide? All the downloads I can find only go up to 2-25 :cry:

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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So, I set up a test mission in 2.0 on the NTTR map with air start and put a T-90 in it with hold position and ROE hold fire.

 

Now the only issue that I have is.... HITTING THE DARN TANK DIRECTLY CryingHard.gif

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

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CPU: Intel Core i7-5820K @ 3800MHz PSU: Corsair AX860i PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
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