Anybody else notice some significant changes to the way the K-4 handles

[LeCuvier]

That I cannot confirm, as each time I land I get max flap, including red line, still.

Today I find that indeed I can now fully extend the flaps.

No idea what caused the issue yesterday; I was not drunk, and I have not changed anything in the meantime. The other two issues I reported are still there though!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

You were probably there when they designed it

Me? No, you were for sure :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbup:.

 

 

Yeah, history channel documentaries, the ultimate source, definitely :music_whistling:. That's by far the more stupid argument I've ever seen. When sitting in your cockpit if you've to rely on room tightness so your body doesn't shake all around that means something is wrong mate. You strap yourself using an amazing thing, seatbelts, and yeah I've give a try on aerobatics and check for myself :thumbup:. Anyhow 109 cockpit is so cramped you'll hit cockpit lid when upside down no matter how tight you strap yourself, did you know that happens? Yeah, most comfortable ever, I don't understand why they don't keep doing it like that :P.

 

On the other hand, so you talk about it, Fw190 was the first ever aeroplane designed with something in mind that we call today ergonomics. But 109? Don't make me laugh. The only ergonomics there is Kg12 grip and that's not a 109 feature but an extra many aeroplanes used, remember firsts 109s had a spade as control, like Spit.

 

S!

[DarkRaiderss]

Anyhow 109 cockpit is so cramped you'll hit cockpit lid when upside down no matter how tight you strap yourself, did you know that happens?

 

S!

 

This guy doesn't hit his head while upside down. He also seems to be able to move around enough to see behind him as well.

 

[rel4y]

Just a quick note, I am pretty sure that only the swiss export E models had the KG 11 spade grip, but none of the Luftwaffe versions.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Just a quick note, I am pretty sure that only the swiss export E models had the KG 11 spade grip, but none of the Luftwaffe versions.

I'm pretty sure every early model that came to Spanish civil war had a spade until Emil :smilewink:. Swiss Emils still featured spade like early models because they were export models, that's right. But those B, few C and D models, still in Luftwaffe service at war start, had spades. As an interesting fact, that also points out how 109s coming to Spain weren't "export" as some say but Luftwaffe aircraft (and Luftwaffe pilots, and Luftwaffe everything) as they didn't featured the export versions features :thumbup:.

 

 

This guy doesn't hit his head while upside down. He also seems to be able to move around enough to see behind him as well.

I don't see him upside down at any moment, and the only complete roll he performs is a correct one, so 1G, so you don't get hanging on the belts :smilewink:. He knows how to fly and he's at an airshow, no need to pain himself.

 

You all bold chair pilots should know what's being there holding G's and hanging from the straps before making any assumption.

 

 

S!

[DarkRaiderss]

 

I don't see him upside down at any moment, and the only complete roll he performs is a correct one, so 1G, so you don't get hanging on the belts :smilewink:. He knows how to fly and he's at an airshow, no need to pain himself.

 

You all bold chair pilots should know what's being there holding G's and hanging from the straps before making any assumption.

 

 

S!

 

He completes three rolls (6:17, 8:20, 11:00) and from what I see he is upside down on all three. I understand G forces but you said you'd hit your head if upside down and he was just that. Now if you mean flying inverted then there would be no forces (other than the seatbelt) to help hold him in the seat. Of course it would be unlikely that a ww2 pilot in this plane would fly for more that a short period inverted. So who cares if he might or might not have bumped his noggin on a rare occasion. Yes it was a cramped cockpit compared to the 51 or 190 but the pilots were still able to fly effectively.

Edited September 20, 2016 by DarkRaiderss

[rel4y]

I'm pretty sure every early model that came to Spanish civil war had a spade until Emil :smilewink:. Swiss Emils still featured spade like early models because they were export models, that's right. But those B, few C and D models, still in Luftwaffe service at war start, had spades. As an interesting fact, that also points out how 109s coming to Spain weren't "export" as some say but Luftwaffe aircraft (and Luftwaffe pilots, and Luftwaffe everything) as they didn't featured the export versions features :thumbup:.

 

Hey, I dont wanna get into a meaningless fight here but let me rephrase what I said. I am pretty certain that maybe apart from some A models, of which only 22 were built and many were redesignated V prototypes, none of the Luftwaffe 109s had spade grips. Most certainly from B production onwards all Luftwaffe 109s only had KG 12/13s sticks. :thumbup: I would be very pleased if you could show me pictures of spade grip 109s apart from the swiss ones as I have never seen one and would be very interested.

[Integrals]

This guy doesn't hit his head while upside down. He also seems to be able to move around enough to see behind him as well.

 

 

I have seen this video before but based on some of the discussion that has happened here and having spent a little time learning the 109 I'm noticing little things that I completely missed before.

 

I'll just go in order that they happen in the video:

 

#1. Immediately after takeoff the first thing the pilot does is use the flaps or trim (which is it?). Then raises gear. I know a lot of people use hotas controls or other key bindings that allow for simultaneous manipulation of the throttle, flaps, trim, and gear. Is there any plan to prevent this from being done (on all aircraft) because its physically impossible to do this with only 2 hands (assuming one doesn't release the stick)

 

#2. From about 6 minutes onward he has both hands on the stick fairly often indicating that the controls are moderately heavy. At 7:45, immediately prior to the roll, it appears that he has to re-position his upper body to perform the maneuver and then really has to exert a lot of force for the stick.

 

#3. Again at 8 minutes it looks like he is fighting with the aircraft to get it to do what he wants to do.

 

 

I do not get the impression that I am doing any work to control the 109 in DCS compared to what that pilot appears to be doing. The controls "feel" light and incredibly responsive up to the point where your control input begins to get severely clipped I do not envy the job of ED trying to capture that characteristic and convey that feeling to us.

[karlmeyer25]

I do not get the impression that I am doing any work to control the 109 in DCS compared to what that pilot appears to be doing. The controls "feel" light and incredibly responsive up to the point where your control input begins to get severely clipped I do not envy the job of ED trying to capture that characteristic and convey that feeling to us.

 

Its an interesting point and one that was discussed in your thread in the P-51D forum. But the reality is I think its impossible to model in a simulation the 109s ergonomics that greatly inhibited pilots from leveraging its potential. For example, Track IR gives pilots a MASSIVE advantage that was all but impossible to physically do in the 109 which meant maintaining tally and SA during a fight was a severe hurdle for real world 109 pilots (and fatal for novices). There is no sound way to model this without HUGE controversy that would otherwise deter from a great sim experience. I think that's just a function of computer based simulations (desk top that is).

 

On pilot workload, I think that the 109 has a great advantage over allied counterparts. While landing and take-off required the pilot to do more uncomfortably than a P-51D pilot, the 109 pilot benefited a ton from the automatic pitch control in addition to the MW50 kicking in based on throttle position. Due to the leading edge slats, I don't think any 109 pilot thought about deploying the flaps in combat for any advantage.

 

Thoughts?

 

-SLACK

[karlmeyer25]

On an additional note, once "fenced in" and ready for the fight, I think the 109 additionally offered the pilot the advantage of leaving the throttle set and allowing the pilot to drive with both hands. Hartmann himself recommended this, and I think the 109 with boost let the pilot get away with this. Again, a unique advantage of it.

 

That being said, the extremely limited visibility and difficulty of maintaining visual and gain situational awareness (SA) is such a disadvantage, its near fatal for most novice pilots. There really is no way to model this and I think we have to live with it.

 

-SLACK

[Integrals]

Its an interesting point and one that was discussed in your thread in the P-51D forum. But the reality is I think its impossible to model in a simulation the 109s ergonomics that greatly inhibited pilots from leveraging its potential. For example, Track IR gives pilots a MASSIVE advantage that was all but impossible to physically do in the 109 which meant maintaining tally and SA during a fight was a severe hurdle for real world 109 pilots (and fatal for novices). There is no sound way to model this without HUGE controversy that would otherwise deter from a great sim experience. I think that's just a function of computer based simulations (desk top that is).

 

 

I half agree, half disagree. While getting the ergonomics dead on is quite impossible I do think it is very possible, and actually adds to the realism, if certain aspects are considered. For example, trim or throttle adjustment (or any other action for that matter) should cut the max force available to the stick by roughly half as a real world pilot would have to move a hand from the stick. Making us virtual pilots take that into consideration adds another layer of realism.

 

As far as visibility, I'm ok with it the way it is TrackIR comes with its on set of challenges, but once set up properly is obviously a huge advantage to anyone using it (regardless of craft). Making aircraft harder to see an environment where it is already exceedingly difficult doesn't keep people coming back to fly more.

 

Now, as far as controversy... If I've learned one thing from online gaming in the almost 20 years I've been participating it is that we (yes all of us) can and will complain about literally everything. As long as the overall approach is consistent across all aircraft (ie control input vs output, visibility, and a looong list of other topics that I dare not mention here) we really shouldn't bitch too much, but we will.

[Solty]

He completes three rolls (6:17, 8:20, 11:00) and from what I see he is upside down on all three. I understand G forces but you said you'd hit your head if upside down and he was just that. Now if you mean flying inverted then there would be no forces (other than the seatbelt) to help hold him in the seat. Of course it would be unlikely that a ww2 pilot in this plane would fly for more that a short period inverted. So who cares if he might or might not have bumped his noggin on a rare occasion. Yes it was a cramped cockpit compared to the 51 or 190 but the pilots were still able to fly effectively.

[karlmeyer25]

I half agree, half disagree. While getting the ergonomics dead on is quite impossible I do think it is very possible, and actually adds to the realism, if certain aspects are considered. For example, trim or throttle adjustment (or any other action for that matter) should cut the max force available to the stick by roughly half as a real world pilot would have to move a hand from the stick. Making us virtual pilots take that into consideration adds another layer of realism.

 

Hmmmm....this is actually a really interesting point. Cliffs of Dover tried to do something similar, albeit their implementation tried to keep you from completing two actions requiring two different hand movements from completing at the same time. The feature was optional and very buggy.

 

But I sorta like the idea that if you're adjusting a trim wheel/tab or manipulating something in the cockpit, in theory you wouldn't be able to use an additional arm for stick input (but what about pilots using their legs to push the stick)?

 

I also wonder about leg obstruction and total available stick distance in the 109. The YouTube video linked by Solty clearly proves that the ergonomics of the 109 more than likely prevented any pilot from achieving the true max distance of the stick in the roll axis. Should that be considered? Not just in the 109 but all aircraft in DCS? A lot to debate, but like you said the most we can hope for are logical and consistent implementations of these issues across all aircraft.

 

-SLACK

 

P.S. Have the slats issue been fixed yet?

[Integrals]

(but what about pilots using their legs to push the stick)?

 

 

 

I'm not sure... Want to argue about if we can use them or not? :lol:

 

P.S. Have the slats issue been fixed yet?

 

I don't believe they have. I'm not 100% sure though because I picked up the 190 this past weekend (40% off sales get me every time) so I've been splitting my time between that and the 51

[DarkRaiderss]

 

 

Your point being?

[otto]

Anyhow 109 cockpit is so cramped you'll hit cockpit lid when upside down no matter how tight you strap yourself, did you know that happens?

S!

 

You know this how ?

 

Walter Krupinski has been wounded seven times, baled out on four occasions as well as surviving numerous crash landings.

One of the crashed landings happened on 8 october 1942 Maikop.He crashed landed after he's plane was hit by AAA and the plane hit the runway hard, rolled violently in the air then crashed upside down. This is mentioned in a book about Hartmann(biography).

I don't think he would have survived if he would have hit he's head too hard.

 

Considering that some people got hundreds of kills while flying the plane i'd say it's irrelevant if you hit your head or not.

[otto]

Me? No, you were for sure :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbup:.

 

 

Yeah, history channel documentaries, the ultimate source, definitely :music_whistling:. That's by far the more stupid argument I've ever seen. When sitting in your cockpit if you've to rely on room tightness so your body doesn't shake all around that means something is wrong mate. You strap yourself using an amazing thing, seatbelts, and yeah I've give a try on aerobatics and check for myself :thumbup:.S!

 

I'm a stupid guy i guess .

 

About your aerobatics.I live in a town that's a few km away from a military flight school.I have family and friends that died while flying jets.A friend of my mom's died in an air show many years ago while crashing horribly nose first after a high speed dive in a mig fighter jet.He was best in he's class.

While having discussions in some of these circles i find out this and that.Since i was passionate about flying fighters even as a kid.This is how i heard about the 109 cockpit design.Anyway nothing is 100% certain .

As for myself i don't like to fly planes for fun and pay for it on top of that.I could do it if i wanted to.Sorry if I'm being impolite.It's just the truth.I would have liked to be part of an elite group(military airforce) If the circumstances were different.

 

PS: Sorry for double post. I'm tired i guess .

Edited September 21, 2016 by otto

[Solty]

Your point being?

If you do the roll right, you will not hit your head on the cannopy because you will not move at all.

 

It also depends on how tall the pilot is. I beeing quite tall, wouldn't even fit into the 109.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Solty

[Schnarre Aggro]

anybody actually thought about it, beeing an advantage to have a wall to lean against if one has to push at sth ??

 

i mean really guys ... plain physics ...

 

1. take a bodyscales, push it agains the wall(standing freely) - note the weight

 

2. put your back against the wall - push again - note the weight

 

3. think about it

 

only read if you can take water beeing poured in boiling oil

 

...why german engineers probably thought of a narrow cockpit in combination with heavy stickforces as a good thing ... and why it is said "Allied pilots want theire planes to perform, while German planes want theire Pilots to perform"

 

 

well, thats just the physical laws ... if you want to really measure the difference, then sit between two walls, equally wide as a 109pit, recreate the the above explained experiment ...

 

I just couldnt hold back after so many posts with knowledge from other guys/sources

That i had to come up with an answer everybody can easily verify for himself.

 

 

... which reminds me at "kant" who said sth like (roughly translated) "... one has to use all "his assets/his mind" to go out of his own stupidity instead of repeat allready made statements" ... well sth like that ... sounds better in German ;)

 

 

Please guys ... dont quote me on that, dont argue with me(in this case with physics) ... just think about it and let it sack

I really dont want to step on anyones foot, i just wonder why nobody thought on that :music_whistling:

one should never underestimate german engineers ;)

Edited September 21, 2016 by Schnarre [Aggro]
because german engineering..

[DarkRaiderss]

If you do the roll right, you will not hit your head on the cannopy because you will not move at all.

 

It also depends on how tall the pilot is. I beeing quite tall, wouldn't even fit into the 109.

 

And what did I say in my statement you quoted indicate I didn't understand that. I was being quite literal with him as he said you'd hit your head if upside down. Even though the g forces would have held him in his seat the pilot was briefly upside down each time. So the only time you'd be upside down with no counteracting g forces would be inverted level flight, or maybe a real slow aileron roll, which would probably be unlikely in combat. So you wouldn't hit your head whenever upside down, if at all.

 

Yeah it's a tight cockpit but considering how many 109 pilots we successful in this aircraft I doubt that even the possibility of hitting their head was an issue. Is there any documentation of this being a complaint of the axis pilots while upside down?

Edited September 21, 2016 by DarkRaiderss

[Integrals]

DarkRaiderss, I believe Solty was agreeing with your post.

 

 

;2906247']anybody actually thought about it, beeing an advantage to have a wall to lean against if one has to push at sth ??

 

i mean really guys ... plain physics ...

 

1. take a bodyscales, push it agains the wall(standing freely) - note the weight

 

2. put your back against the wall - push again - note the weight

 

3. think about it

 

 

well, thats just the physical laws ... if you want to really measure the difference, then sit between two walls, equally wide as a 109pit, recreate the the above explained experiment ...

 

I just couldnt hold back after so many posts with knowledge from other guys/sources

That i had to come up with an answer everybody can easily verify for himself.

 

 

Your example is indeed true if you allow for all of the muscle groups to be used similarly in both situations. I believe the argument is that the 109'd cockpit's ergonomics are such that movement of the pilot is severely restricted thus the force they could apply isn't their maximum.

 

Try the same experiment using only your forearm first then try again with your entire arm... the results will be different I bet.

 

The problem with simple physics is that it tends to ignore external factors that relate the problem to the real world: https://xkcd.com/669/

[DB 605]

 

 

Anyhow 109 cockpit is so cramped you'll hit cockpit lid when upside down no matter how tight you strap yourself, did you know that happens? Yeah, most comfortable ever, I don't understand why they don't keep doing it like that :P.

 

 

S!

 

I would like to know the source for your claim about head hitting the lid :lol:

Good old myths will never die...

 

Sure it was not the most comfortable cockpit ever but many pilots actually liked it once they got used to it.

 

"During the war I had the oppertunity to fly captured P-47's and P-51's. I didn't like the Thunderbolt. It was too big. The cockpit was immense and unfamiliar. After so may hours in the snug confines of the 109, everything felt out of reach and too far away from the pilot. Although the P-51 was a fine airplane to fly, because of its reactions and capabilities, it too was disconcerting. With all those levers, controls and switches in the cockpit. I'm surprised your pilots could find the time to fight. We had nothing like this in the 109. Everything was simple and very close to the pilot. You fitted into the cockpit like a hand in a glove. Our instrumentation was complete, but simple: throttle, mixture control and prop pitch. How your pilots were able to work on all their gadgets and still function amazes me."

Walter Wolfrum

 

"- How did the cockpit feel in the 109?

The cockpit was small, but one got used to it after a while. In the end it felt comfortable since you felt like part of the plane. The Spitfire's cockpit did not feel that much roomier to him either. The 262 cockpit however was larger in comparison. It also had a long flight stick, giving the pilot lots of leverage in flight."

- Franz Stigler

 

"The Me had a very clear cockpit. It was big enough for a normal man. You had a firm feeling about sitting in a robust plane.@

-Jorma Karhunen, Finnish fighter ace

Edited September 21, 2016 by DB 605

[karlmeyer25]

I would like to know the source for your claim about head hitting the lid :lol:

Good old myths will never die...

 

Sure it was not the most comfortable cockpit ever but many pilots actually liked it once they got used to it.

 

"During the war I had the oppertunity to fly captured P-47's and P-51's. I didn't like the Thunderbolt. It was too big. The cockpit was immense and unfamiliar. After so may hours in the snug confines of the 109, everything felt out of reach and too far away from the pilot. Although the P-51 was a fine airplane to fly, because of its reactions and capabilities, it too was disconcerting. With all those levers, controls and switches in the cockpit. I'm surprised your pilots could find the time to fight. We had nothing like this in the 109. Everything was simple and very close to the pilot. You fitted into the cockpit like a hand in a glove. Our instrumentation was complete, but simple: throttle, mixture control and prop pitch. How your pilots were able to work on all their gadgets and still function amazes me."

Walter Wolfrum

 

"- How did the cockpit feel in the 109?

The cockpit was small, but one got used to it after a while. In the end it felt comfortable since you felt like part of the plane. The Spitfire's cockpit did not feel that much roomier to him either. The 262 cockpit however was larger in comparison. It also had a long flight stick, giving the pilot lots of leverage in flight."

- Franz Stigler

 

"The Me had a very clear cockpit. It was big enough for a normal man. You had a firm feeling about sitting in a robust plane.@

-Jorma Karhunen, Finnish fighter ace

 

These are great quotes. I remember one that really impressed me. It was in the original 1998 Falcon 4.0 manual in possibly the forward or intro but it had to do with getting the "feel" of an aircraft right in a simulation. The author (who I think was Pete Bonanni) asked Gen Adolf Galland as to why if the FW-190 was considered the superior aircraft so many pilots preferred the BF-109. Galland's response was something like the that once inside the aircraft it was like "wearing a glove." You can imagine Galland pondering the question for a bit while reminiscing in his years spent flying the machine before responding with the deep affection one can only feel after experiencing such insane moments that aerial combat in WWII created.

 

Maybe the crampness and the snugness had a psychological benefit of connecting the pilot with the aircraft and thus feeling more mentally comfortable if not physically. It was a great quote and I loved reading it as a kid.

 

-SLACK

 

P.S. Been playing DCS in VR and honestly, no kidding, you do get a sense of the "feel" of these cockpits like nothing you have ever felt before. Every time I step into a 109 from the P-51D its literally night and day. Truly incredible.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

You know this how ?

I would like to know the source for your claim about head hitting the lid

I know because I've been hanging of the straps mates :smilewink:. There's a say in aerobatics, "tight your seat belt until you think you can't be more tight, then tighten them more". Even that way your body just flies away when you make any negative G manoeuvre, not to mention just rolling the aeroplane upside down. If you haven't experienced that you can't say how much you move no matter how tight you strap yourself. You just have to look at those guys sitting in there, centimetres way from the lid to know they would hit it flying upside down, no need for conspiracy theories :lol:.

 

 

S!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Hey, I dont wanna get into a meaningless fight here but let me rephrase what I said. I am pretty certain that maybe apart from some A models, of which only 22 were built and many were redesignated V prototypes, none of the Luftwaffe 109s had spade grips. Most certainly from B production onwards all Luftwaffe 109s only had KG 12/13s sticks. :thumbup: I would be very pleased if you could show me pictures of spade grip 109s apart from the swiss ones as I have never seen one and would be very interested.

Not at all mate :thumbup:, sorry if I sounded harsh, not my intention.

 

 

I'll look for, time ago I lost all my SCW pics and I don't know if I keep something on that. But let me see, it's quite an interesting subject :smilewink:.

 

 

S!