One feature is nessesary, pls!

[Lao Fei Mao]

From the day one of FC1.0 to nowaday dcs world, I notice that the cockpit always distort along with the outside view if zoom out, or we use wider FOV. That would degrade the experiece when we look around in cockpit. And I've found that only if set the FOV at 50, the cockpit then keep its shape, but most of us would like 100+ FOV while flying. So I comes out this idea, keep away the cockpit from the FOV change. I think it's shouldn't be that hard technically. And I know that some games indeed achieve this. For example, Payday2, FC4 or BF4, even you set the FOV to the max value, the rifle in hand doesn't distort, while most shoot games like ArmA3 however failed to do so, the wider FOV, the thinner and longer the rifle becomes.

How do you think about it, Devs?:doh:

[Flagrum]

I am not a dev, but I share my thoughts anyways ... :o)

 

I don't see how that would benefit the experience. What do you want to archieve when setting a larger FOV? You want to see more. What is there to see? The cockpit with all the vital instruments, etc. Yes, the outside world as well, but there, mostly the target area is important - so you would focus on that anyways (as opposed to let it fly by in your peripheral vision).

 

And your suggestion makes stuff also more difficult. Reference points in the cockpit would not be viable anymore. Depending from where you look at, the object of your interest would move around. Example: you see a bogey in the corner of your eye at your 2 o'clock position - right next to the canopy rail. Now you turn your head to the right ... and now the enemy magically moves more to the front of your aircraft, more to the 12:30 position ...!?

[Lao Fei Mao]

I am not a dev, but I share my thoughts anyways ... :o)

 

I don't see how that would benefit the experience. What do you want to archieve when setting a larger FOV? You want to see more. What is there to see? The cockpit with all the vital instruments, etc. Yes, the outside world as well, but there, mostly the target area is important - so you would focus on that anyways (as opposed to let it fly by in your peripheral vision).

 

And your suggestion makes stuff also more difficult. Reference points in the cockpit would not be viable anymore. Depending from where you look at, the object of your interest would move around. Example: you see a bogey in the corner of your eye at your 2 o'clock position - right next to the canopy rail. Now you turn your head to the right ... and now the enemy magically moves more to the front of your aircraft, more to the 12:30 position ...!?

 

------No, you misunderstood me. I want wider FOV, whilst don't want the cockpit be distorted while look around, it makes me feel I enters a warp space, that's not real, right?

[dotChuckles]

What you are asking for would have the unintended consequence of making your cockpit appear massive as opposed to stretched, relative scale would be all wrong.

 

It's all optics at the end of the day, if you change it at one end you effect it at another. No way around that I'm afraid.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

The problem with large field of view is the fact, that the image gets distorted when it is spread over a flat surface (=a screen). If we change the cockpit to not distort (i.e. not change with field of view) we create a problem, that the outside world is distorted (though it is harder to notice as it is farther away and movement parallax occurs slower) but the cockpit is not. Pilots use cockpit structure as hints to identify if a target is at their 3 or 9 o'clock or somewhere else, and this only works if the whole image acts as constant image.

 

What you are asking is that the gameworld and the cockpit be separate entities with separate render fields of view. in shooters this might be viable as the gunmodel is there only for the visuals. The human eye and a flat screen act very differently. The difference is the same as with looking at a world map with mercators projection, and then looking at a globe map where everything is as it should.

 

Unfortunately what you want here breaks some of the visual functions of the cockpit and will not be done.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[Lao Fei Mao]

The problem with large field of view is the fact, that the image gets distorted when it is spread over a flat surface (=a screen). If we change the cockpit to not distort (i.e. not change with field of view) we create a problem, that the outside world is distorted (though it is harder to notice as it is farther away and movement parallax occurs slower) but the cockpit is not. Pilots use cockpit structure as hints to identify if a target is at their 3 or 9 o'clock or somewhere else, and this only works if the whole image acts as constant image.

 

What you are asking is that the gameworld and the cockpit be separate entities with separate render fields of view. in shooters this might be viable as the gunmodel is there only for the visuals. The human eye and a flat screen act very differently. The difference is the same as with looking at a world map with mercators projection, and then looking at a globe map where everything is as it should.

 

Unfortunately what you want here breaks some of the visual functions of the cockpit and will not be done.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

-----I don't think it would broke the visual functions of the cockpit, take a look at the some flight school training cabinet, a big screen in front of a cockpit, they may change the field of view on the screen, but can't change the physical cockpit.

[bkthunder]

IMO what you're asking is quite strange.

I remember the old days of FS2000 with the 2d cockpit. You could zoom the view, the cockpit would stay the same while the outside world i zoomed in.

 

Nothing worse if you ask me.

 

If that happened in DCS I think it would create all sorts of problems. Imagine aiming with the hud for example, it would be all wrong.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

-----I don't think it would broke the visual functions of the cockpit, take a look at the some flight school training cabinet, a big screen in front of a cockpit, they may change the field of view on the screen, but can't change the physical cockpit.

 

And that is not realistic. If you look infront of you, you should see what is in front of you. If you look to your left next to a cockpit metal bar, you should actually see the terrain that is in fact near the said bar. If you set the cockpit to a smaller field of view and the terrain larger, you see way more terrain that you should be able to see at that part of the cockpit. I might just draw a bunch of images when I get home. This is a difficult subject to explain in pure text.

 

Meanwhile, the point is, you can't separate the cockpit and the world field of view without breaking the simulation.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[lmp]

-----I don't think it would broke the visual functions of the cockpit, take a look at the some flight school training cabinet, a big screen in front of a cockpit, they may change the field of view on the screen, but can't change the physical cockpit.

 

They have those big screens precisely because they want to have a natural field of view and not a compressed one.

 

Changing the FOV of the world without changing the FOV of the cockpit would create all sorts of problems already mentioned and would also look super weird - it would degrade your looking around the cockpit experience at least as much as the current system.

 

Truth is, if you want to have a 120 degrees field of view that looks natural, you need a monitor that fills 120 degrees of your field of view.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Okay gentlemen, here goes.

 

First off, lmp, the following is not quite accurate. You cannot have a non-distorted view on a traditional screen, unless it is viewed form a very specific point, at the center of the original spherical projection. Read on to see why.

 

Truth is, if you want to have a 120 degrees field of view that looks natural, you need a monitor that fills 120 degrees of your field of view.

 

If you look at the first attachement, you'll see the difference between the human eye and a camera. On the human eye, light is translated to the back of the eye on a spherical surface, where as on a camera the light is translated on a flat surface. Now there in lies the initial problem of FOV in the first place.

 

Take a look at the second attachment. You see, that with a spherical projection, no matter where you look from the center of the circle, all the cast lines are at equal spacings on the circle edge. Now look at the flat plane where the lines are projected on. You quickly realize that beyond a certain point the cast lines diverge, thus creating the distortion you see on flat screens. Now! If you were to take a given FOV and find the spherical projections (imaginary) center point next to your monitor, you would see the image as natural. If you go up, down, left, right, forward or backwards from that point, you see the image distortion...

 

I'll continue on the next post... :book:

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[MikeMikeJuliet]

.... aaaaand continue!

 

Now. Picture any FOV in the game. For starters, assume constant FOV between the cockpit and the environment around you (i.e. as the game is now).

 

Take a look at the first attachment on this post. You see I've projected a FOV (the two lines running via the corners of the chevrons). You see the lines are straight and go through the same points on both the cockpit and the environment. You also see, that I traced a line to a target that you might see on the environment (a cloud, an aircraft, ground target, what have you). The traced line is at the same location on both chevrons (cockpit and the environment).

 

Okay, so no problems there. Where do the problems come in then.

 

Right, take a look at the next attachement. Now the environment has a larger FOV (hence the chevron is squashed, as you have to fit more of it in the same space, so the world seems to look "tighter"). This means for example that you see a larger portion of your environment within your HUD area for example, or between the canopy arches. On the picture is also a target, stationed on the environment as shown by the black arrow. The target appears to be on your 1 o'clock for example (because you determine directions in relation to your aircraft). BUT! As shown by the red markings, when we trace the targets location on the environment chevron, to the same location on the cockpit chevron, you see, that the target really was at your 2 o'clock. Now this is VERY bad when you fight in visual, and especially when you are getting ready for a gunshot, because you can't accurately measure the enemies position.

 

Finally, let's look around the cockpit. Open the last attachement and you see what happens. Again the FOV of the environment is larger (so the chevron is smaller to represent the squashed image). No problems when you look straight in front of you, but when you look around, the environment seems to be "following the view". This happens, because what I showed in the previous post: The focal point (i.e. the point in the center of the screen) is the only point at which the environment AND the cockpit views line up. Thus when you look around and the focal point moves in the virtual space (physically still in the center of the screen), the rest of the environment seems to follow suit. Looking at the attachement, you see this movement drawn as the red chevron. The diamonds represent the current focal points, which are always at the same point relative to each chevron. So if you look to your 12', you see your HUD and the environment in front of you. And if you look 45 degrees left or right, you see (in the middle of the screen) the point of your cockpit that is 45 degrees to that direction, as well as the environment (at the focal point). But anywhere else on the screen the positions do not align.

 

 

Now this was a highly technical explanation, but I feel I've made all possible points to show, that inconsistent FOV in games where the relation of the cockpit elements to the environment DO matter, it is impossible to separate them without causing issues. These issues are greater the larger the FOV disparity is.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[lmp]

You're absolutely right and it's in fact what I meant. I just didn't have the time to go in depth the way you did. My employer would not appreciate it at least ;).

[MikeMikeJuliet]

You're absolutely right and it's in fact what I meant. I just didn't have the time to go in depth the way you did. My employer would not appreciate it at least ;).

 

;)

 

DCS-forums is the premier meeting place for working people :D

 

 

On a side-note, the first attachement on the first part of "the explanation" is slightly distorted... I drew the lines badly. In case of the "human eye" the lines should converge in the middle of the ball...

 

I hope I still got the point across.

[mytai01]

What you really need is Oculus Rift VR headset!

[MikeMikeJuliet]

What you really need is Oculus Rift VR headset!

 

Indeed. Or the Vive... I just wish pixel density worked for that already...

[dotChuckles]

DCS-forums is the premier meeting place for working people :D

 

You're not wrong ;-) DCS Forums are what fills my time while I wait for AfterEffects to finish rendering. :megalol: