TrackIR still worthwhile?

[hansangb]

Davewave, comparing track IR/multi- monitor to VR is like comparing the first Motorola mobile phone to modern smartphones. It's that much of a leap forward. There's nothing wrong with multi-monitor setup or TIR. I used both for a long time. But it really does pale in comparison to VR. It's not perfect, but it's pretty close to perfect

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[simo1000rr]

Guys I will shed in my 2 cents. First of all I have track ir 5 also I used to have Oculus rift DK2 ( I sold it before CV1 comes out so I can buy CV1 ) . im waiting on my CV1. Although when I used to have DK2 I couldn’t get DCS to work on it, BUT I could get it to work flawlessly in another 2 games that I used to play for over 2 yrs using 2D monitor those games are EURO TRUCK SIMULATOR 2 & ALIEN ISOLATION . now here is what I thought.

 

1 – No matter how much I tell you or describe it to, you will never know what a VR is till you put one On try it yourself and stare for your first 15 minutes with your jaw dropping in awe and probably your wife looking at you from outside and thinking that you are watching porn inside the goggles. This is how I was when I first got Euro truck to work on Rift. It was just … I can’t describe it.

 

I used to play Euro truck for over 2 yrs and now since I sold the DK2 I cant even play it because its just not good anymore. What Hansangb is telling you is correct, it would be like if I take your I PHONE 6 from you and give you back an old Motorola you will never use it again since you tasted how touch screen works on your Smartphone.

 

I was there inside the truck driving and staring at road signs and looking at the cars around me , you never get that feeling when staring at 2D monitor , you are immersed inside that world.

 

2 – I was playing alien isolation on 2D monitor when it came out , it was mmm just like any other action games , good graphics , good music and nice atmosphere but nothing scary.

even when i had my first encounter with the Alien it was just... meh. . So when I knew that the game could work on the rift i put the Rift on and I try to play Alien isolation and I swear I stood there scared to move because ….. how would I say it , The rift took you there you are walking alone inside a damaged space shuttle surrounded by fear of what is going to jump in your face , The music and the atmosphere just make you feel that you are inside a movie and your are the hero of that movie .

 

Im sorry if im making this long but honestly if you didn’t try it so no matter how much we describe it you would have to try it yourself . its like if I try to describe how food tastes VR is a new revolution and it’s in my own opinion the future of gaming i remember when the first 3D game came out like wolfenstien 3D and DOOM 1 &2 and i was playing it and a few friends of mine were still playing 2D games like prince of Persia ( the first one ) and i was trying to explain to them how is 3D gaming are like.

Now the question is can I play Euro truck or Alien again on 2D monitor again, the answer is I cant and I never did since I sold my DK2 its just crab . now im only worried that if I played DCS on CV1 that I will never be able to play it again on a 2D setup.

Sorry for making this long but really VR in DCS i can only imagine how it will be and i cant wait to get my hand on the CV1 and later CV2

[Davewave]

Davewave, comparing track IR/multi- monitor to VR is like comparing the first Motorola mobile phone to modern smartphones. It's that much of a leap forward. There's nothing wrong with multi-monitor setup or TIR. I used both for a long time. But it really does pale in comparison to VR. It's not perfect, but it's pretty close to perfect

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

What I can't understand is apart from the immersion factor of VR you are completly reliant on the buttons you see in the cockpit and have no feel of them. And all your physical buttons on your desk are covered by the VR headset so see that as a drawback to immersion.

[Davewave]

Guys I will shed in my 2 cents. First of all I have track ir 5 also I used to have Oculus rift DK2 ( I sold it before CV1 comes out so I can buy CV1 ) . im waiting on my CV1. Although when I used to have DK2 I couldn’t get DCS to work on it, BUT I could get it to work flawlessly in another 2 games that I used to play for over 2 yrs using 2D monitor those games are EURO TRUCK SIMULATOR 2 & ALIEN ISOLATION . now here is what I thought.

 

1 – No matter how much I tell you or describe it to, you will never know what a VR is till you put one On try it yourself and stare for your first 15 minutes with your jaw dropping in awe and probably your wife looking at you from outside and thinking that you are watching porn inside the goggles. This is how I was when I first got Euro truck to work on Rift. It was just … I can’t describe it.

 

I used to play Euro truck for over 2 yrs and now since I sold the DK2 I cant even play it because its just not good anymore. What Hansangb is telling you is correct, it would be like if I take your I PHONE 6 from you and give you back an old Motorola you will never use it again since you tasted how touch screen works on your Smartphone.

 

I was there inside the truck driving and staring at road signs and looking at the cars around me , you never get that feeling when staring at 2D monitor , you are immersed inside that world.

 

2 – I was playing alien isolation on 2D monitor when it came out , it was mmm just like any other action games , good graphics , good music and nice atmosphere but nothing scary.

even when i had my first encounter with the Alien it was just... meh. . So when I knew that the game could work on the rift i put the Rift on and I try to play Alien isolation and I swear I stood there scared to move because ….. how would I say it , The rift took you there you are walking alone inside a damaged space shuttle surrounded by fear of what is going to jump in your face , The music and the atmosphere just make you feel that you are inside a movie and your are the hero of that movie .

 

Im sorry if im making this long but honestly if you didn’t try it so no matter how much we describe it you would have to try it yourself . its like if I try to describe how food tastes VR is a new revolution and it’s in my own opinion the future of gaming i remember when the first 3D game came out like wolfenstien 3D and DOOM 1 &2 and i was playing it and a few friends of mine were still playing 2D games like prince of Persia ( the first one ) and i was trying to explain to them how is 3D gaming are like.

Now the question is can I play Euro truck or Alien again on 2D monitor again, the answer is I cant and I never did since I sold my DK2 its just crab . now im only worried that if I played DCS on CV1 that I will never be able to play it again on a 2D setup.

Sorry for making this long but really VR in DCS i can only imagine how it will be and i cant wait to get my hand on the CV1 and later CV2

 

I've just convinced my wife I need a GTX 1070 so she will never believe me that I need a VR as well of course if you are willing to loan me one I'll let you know how I go.

Also which VR is best for DCS?

[Marky3254]

I'd go for quality TrackIR over home brew any day, I wasted time & money on the FaceTrackNoIR / CL Eye setup, and had 2 of the most frustrating days imaginable.

 

Useless for me.

 

I'm UK based and would happily pay for a Track IR for peace of mind, the potential for issues is the home brew kit spoils the experience.

 

Two days, what were you doing? I've just set mine up and it took about 6 hours (someone who is not disabled would be able to do it in far less time), most of that time was messing with FaceTrackNoIR's settings but the most difficult bit was removing the IR filter form the camera and fitting two layers of floppy disk for a filter. As I wrote it cost me £25 and it's a very decent head tracker.

[Marky3254]

Proving the point that in theory it works, but in practice a potential nightmare of glitches unreliability and frustration, dependant on a number of variables that are system dependant.

 

Which is why TrackIR is so popular...maybe ;) It's a professional product that works straight out of the box, that's what you pay for.

 

If your so concerned about the price, find someone in the US, wire them the money and get them to send you one as a "gift".

 

You have an odd way of proving things...

 

Anyway I'll leave this TrackIR fan club alone now.

[SharpeXB]

Implying that TrackIR is overpriced because it's possible to make your own "free" device is like saying music CDs are overpriced because there's "free" music available on the Internet. :music_whistling:

[Marky3254]

Implying that TrackIR is overpriced because it's possible to make your own "free" device is like saying music CDs are overpriced because there's "free" music available on the Internet. :music_whistling:

 

You can whistle all you like, it doesn't make your analogy correct. You're really overreaching there, I did not steal anything and I never wrote that it was free...

Edited September 6, 2016 by Marky3254

[SharpeXB]

Is there a Trademark or Copyright like this listed on the software?

Such as "Copyright © 2016 NaturalPoint, Inc."

 

One popular free software I see nothing listed for or even an official website.

One in fact does have it. But it's not freeware, it's donationware.

 

When a customer pays for something they're not just paying for the parts. They're paying the salaries of the people who design, make and support it. Trying to imply that a business is unethical because it actually sells its product is absurd.

Oh and one of the costs of doing business every company like this has to carry and then unfortunately pass onto their customer is software piracy. The people who pay for the products are subsidizing those who won't.

[SharpeXB]

I did not steal anything and I never wrote that it was free...

I am not accusing you of that. Just to be clear. I have no idea what software you are using nor am I an expert on any of these products. I'm just giving my oppinons.

Edited September 6, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Revvin]

TrackIR was a game changer for me when the first version came out many years ago. I remember some virtual pilots insisting it was a cheat to use it on some forums it was that good. Naturalpoint was the only choice for a long time and they refined their hardware and software but as time went on they failed to push the tech further and their stranglehold on the flightsim market was lost. When my TrackIR 4 died I looked at other alternatives and gave an early version of the EDTracker a try ( http://www.edtracker.co.uk/ ) It doesn't have the full 6DOF capability of the TrackIR but its a simple device, just as accurate and doesn't need a camera so you don't lose tracking and its not spoofed by sunlight or other light sources. VR is on my list to buy but I'm waiting for a standard to develop and the tech to improve a little more before I buy, in the meantime you can build your own EDTracker for just a few pounds or buy a pre-built one for just £37.50.

 

Just because someone gives away software freely doesn't mean its stolen, you can download a whole OS free. Deals between developers and Naturalpoint early on meant alternative devices were nigh on impossible, if you changed the name Naturalpoint for Microsoft you'd have people screaming about anti-competition practices :) Perhaps the positive effect VR has had on gaming is developers have made it easier to map buttons and axis for view control and helped some of these TrackIR alternatives.

[SharpeXB]

Well in comparison with the above. It's not just the ability to turn your head that makes TrackIR such a great device. It's the 6-DoF. That's critical for viewing around obstructions like canopy frames and such. Without 6-DoF the cockpit view is unrealistically restrictive. So, no. ED Tracker is really not an equal.

[hansangb]

I've just convinced my wife I need a GTX 1070 so she will never believe me that I need a VR as well of course if you are willing to loan me one I'll let you know how I go.

Also which VR is best for DCS?

 

For DCS, Rift is much better. ED/DCS is much father along in their development work with Rift. And Async Time Warp feature on Rift makes it a better platform for DCS.

[Marky3254]

Is there a Trademark or Copyright like this listed on the software?

Such as "Copyright © 2016 NaturalPoint, Inc."

 

One popular free software I see nothing listed for or even an official website.

One in fact does have it. But it's not freeware, it's donationware.

 

http://www.facetracknoir.nl/ GNU General Public License, Copyright © 2010 - 2016 Wim Vriend. All Rights Reserved.

 

https://sourceforge.net/p/facetracknoir/wiki/PointTracker/ (6 DOF IR tracking)

 

Trying to imply that a business is unethical because it actually sells its product is absurd

 

It is not absurd to suggest a company is charging too much... I do think £180 (about the price of a 32" Sony Bravia television or a MSI NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960) for not very much is verging on profiteering.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Marky3254

[hansangb]

How's the transgression when you eliminate the keyboard entirely?

I'm sure the immersion is great, but without a glove and haptic feedback, is VR really ready for full on flight Sims?

 

 

More than you can imagine. Imagine watching a missile launch, you look over your canopy and you see the streaking contrail coming towards you. And while you're looking at the SAM, you maneuver the plane. Your brain knows EXACTLY what you're doing and it's natural. With TrackIR that is simply *not* possible. Because you're brain knows which way and what you're looking at. You're not *really* looking at the SAM. So there is no situational awareness.

 

Once I got VR, I was able to hover better, fly better, land better, NOE better, *and* fly in formation better because you get the sense of speed.

 

Listen, I am *not* putting TrackIR down. I had three monitor, 2 MFD setup with TrackIR. And it was great. Just not anymore. I gave my TrackIR away to a guy for free. You just can't go back.

 

As to not having haptic feedback, you can now map a mouse click to your hotas. So you can just look at the switch and hit a button. It's surprisingly intuitive. Never mind door gunner action in VR - awesome! :)

 

But, I do agree that physical touch is better. That's why I'm building a switch box. And that's why I still use MFDs. It's easy to sneak a peek and use physical switches/MFD.

[SharpeXB]

http://www.facetracknoir.nl/ GNU General Public License, Copyright © 2010 - 2016 Wim Vriend. All Rights Reserved.

 

https://sourceforge.net/p/facetracknoir/wiki/PointTracker/ (6 DOF IR tracking)

Facetracknoir was the one I saw with a copyright. I see some people get very good results with it.

 

I do think £180 (about the price of a 32" Sony Bravia television or a MSI NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960) for not very much is verging on profiteering.

Once again though, this device is made by a US company and the price somebody here would pay for one is equivalent to £111 ($149) with no tax added either. Considering the difference in median income, that £111 feels more like £80 to someone here. The fact that it's "expensive" in your country had nothing to do with NaturalPoint. It has to do with exchange rate, tariffs, relative wages or whatever. The price here in the US is not unreasonable. A PC that could run DCS costs 10x as much so I'm not sure why this is an issue.

Edited September 7, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Revvin]

Well in comparison with the above. It's not just the ability to turn your head that makes TrackIR such a great device. It's the 6-DoF. That's critical for viewing around obstructions like canopy frames and such. Without 6-DoF the cockpit view is unrealistically restrictive. So, no. ED Tracker is really not an equal.

 

I disagree, I had a TrackIR with 6DOF support but the ability to lean was not one of the strongest features of the device in practice. In my experience of using TrackIR since its first iteration and then trying the EDTracker the benefits of not requiring a camera for the EDTracker outweighed the lack of 6DOF support. I had more issues with the TrackIR freaking out and losing tracking trying to look down to as point where the camera couldn't track or the fiddling with the camera trying to find a sweet spot between good tracking and getting 6DOF to work satisfactorily. I had one of the early EDTracker units and it did have a little drift sometimes which was easily corrected by mapping a centring key to my HOTAS in the same way I had to map one for the TrackIR so neither device was perfect on that score, however the EDTracker has since implemented new hardware and software to minimise any kind of drift and I plan on trying one soon as even having already bought one, buying a second EDTracker will still make my total outlay half that of a TrackIR and my old device will go to a friend to get him started.

[Sierra99]

I think SA is dramatically improved with track IR...

 

My .02

 

Sierra

[agrasyuk]

Cab ad to the general sentiment of approval here .

 

With that, in case you never used it before, don't expect immediate results and plan to practice with it. It took me quite some time to get used to it, I remember it was getting quite frustrating at times . After a while it became intuitive and yes I too would not fly without it anymore.

[slicker55]

Let me put it this way... if my TrackiR blew up today, I'd have another on order without any hesitation... I think it's one of those things that once you've had, you just can't do without!

[Rogue Trooper]

For me TrackIr was the game changer, for choppers hovering in amongst buildings.. there is no comparison... head tracking of some sort is simply a must.

 

VR is awesome though, I love the real world head movement but I really need more resolution out of VR, at least to the resolution of my 1080 monitor, a little wider image to give peripheral view (please please Samsung) and I am in!!

 

Until then trackir is just the best. For most TrackIr users it is the perfect 6 Dof look around device... which I also love. But for me, flying in the kamov, it is a seriously accurate target tracking device that allows almost perfect use of the Kamov's HMS targeting reticule... I love it!

[SharpeXB]

I disagree, I had a TrackIR with 6DOF support but the ability to lean was not one of the strongest features of the device in practice.

It would depend on the game and settings. For playing with icons which are visible through the plane (like they are in DCS) 6 DoF might not seem so important. If you're playing without icons and in an aircraft like a 109 with the heavy canopy frames. The ability to lean and look around them is imperative. It's as big a benefit as anything else. Even using the clickable cockpits requires you to lean, for example looking for switches under the throttle. Not something you would do in reality but needed in the game.

 

When I bought my first "flight sim" style game. I opened up its manual and saw this thing called a TrackIR. Once I found out what it was I figured there was no point in playing without it. So I just shelved the game till I could afford one, since I was unemployed at the time. As soon as I got a new job it was the first thing I bought.

Edited September 8, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Revvin]

You've missed the point, the lean function wasn't its strongest feature not because of what I was playing or what game settings that were being used but because the software and hardware on the TrackIR got easily confused and produced erratic behaviour depending on how far you leaned, how light the room was or how the camera was positioned which ruined immersion. I spent most of my time just using two axis even though I had a 6DOF capable TrackIR because it just became a nuisance trying to find a sweet spot for lighting, camera placement and seating position. Its still a good device and I wouldn't deter anyone from buying one but its worth exploring other solutions.

[Captain Orso]

With TrackIR that is simply *not* possible. Because you're brain knows which way and what you're looking at. You're not *really* looking at the SAM. So there is no situational awareness.

 

This is just not true. I don't know how many times I've tried to remember when I got my TrackIR how it was to get used to it, because it felt natural right from the start. The relation between your head motion and the view on your monitor is natural, and this is because, that's how your brain works to process visual information. So although I turn my head only about 45° to the left or right to look directly behind me in the DCS cockpit, it feels absolutely natural.

 

The only time it gets unnatural is when I'm looking nearly straight up and back through the P-51D's dome cockpit canopy. With no other visual reference (ei you only see sky, and hopefully the enemy's A/C) your brain cannot really grasp very well exactly where you are looking and coordinate the DCS World view and how it senses in which direction your head and eyes are pointing, to put it all together into the image your brain understand, a kind of biological virtual world.

 

More than you can imagine. Imagine watching a missile launch, you look over your canopy and you see the streaking contrail coming towards you. And while you're looking at the SAM, you maneuver the plane. Your brain knows EXACTLY what you're doing and it's natural.

 

Once I got VR, I was able to hover better, fly better, land better, NOE better, *and* fly in formation better because you get the sense of speed.

 

And this is what I'm hoping for from VR. One of the biggest issues I have with flying the P-51D is during landing not being able to sense how close to the ground I am. I miss this like the dickens. That and what I mentioned above about the lack of visual reference when looking nearly straight up in the DCS view.

 

Listen, I am *not* putting TrackIR down. I had three monitor, 2 MFD setup with TrackIR. And it was great. Just not anymore. I gave my TrackIR away to a guy for free. You just can't go back.

 

As to not having haptic feedback, you can now map a mouse click to your hotas. So you can just look at the switch and hit a button. It's surprisingly intuitive. Never mind door gunner action in VR - awesome! :)

 

But, I do agree that physical touch is better. That's why I'm building a switch box. And that's why I still use MFDs. It's easy to sneak a peek and use physical switches/MFD.

 

There have been some good descriptions of how different it feels between wearing a tracking device and flying DCS without. The most fitting description is the difference between play a 2d and a 3d game.

 

I'm imagining that going into VR will be the same experience shift, but I'm holding off to take the leap for when VR has matured some more. Probably I'll make my 3rd GPU jump at the same time to something capable of driving a VR headset at full resolutions with graphical setting on full. But it's like waiting for Christmas without a calendar :helpsmilie:.

[hansangb]

This is just not true. I don't know how many times I've tried to remember when I got my TrackIR how it was to get used to it, because it felt natural right from the start. The relation between your head motion and the view on your monitor is natural, and this is because, that's how your brain works to process visual information. So although I turn my head only about 45° to the left or right to look directly behind me in the DCS cockpit, it feels absolutely natural.

 

The only time it gets unnatural is when I'm looking nearly straight up and back through the P-51D's dome cockpit canopy. With no other visual reference (ei you only see sky, and hopefully the enemy's A/C) your brain cannot really grasp very well exactly where you are looking and coordinate the DCS World view and how it senses in which direction your head and eyes are pointing, to put it all together into the image your brain understand, a kind of biological virtual world.

 

The latter part kind of describes what I was trying to say. It's hard to convey in words. While the mechanics of using TrackIR are very natural, your brain doesn't buy into it. Because the image is looking left, the head is slight to the left, and the eyeballs are looking straight ahead. And the lack of 3D is also the reason why there is no true situational awareness. To prove it, play one of those roller coaster games in TrackIR. Then do it in Rift/Vive. You gasp at the movement because you brain is completely tricked into believing it's real. When you stand at the edge of the building, you don't reach out to steady yourself with TIR. with VR you do. It's the same mechanism that allows me to fly in relation to the SAM and my brain is 100% convinced of it. When I pull back, I *know* where I'm headed. When I flip over as I climb to keep an eye on the target by looking up, I know which when I need to control the plane.

 

It's also the reason why when i knew I was going to crash, my legs involuntarily lifted up into the air. You will *NEVER* get that with TIR.

 

 

And this is what I'm hoping for from VR. One of the biggest issues I have with flying the P-51D is during landing not being able to sense how close to the ground I am. I miss this like the dickens. That and what I mentioned above about the lack of visual reference when looking nearly straight up in the DCS view.

 

 

 

There have been some good descriptions of how different it feels between wearing a tracking device and flying DCS without. The most fitting description is the difference between play a 2d and a 3d game.

 

I'm imagining that going into VR will be the same experience shift, but I'm holding off to take the leap for when VR has matured some more. Probably I'll make my 3rd GPU jump at the same time to something capable of driving a VR headset at full resolutions with graphical setting on full. But it's like waiting for Christmas without a calendar :helpsmilie:.

 

 

Yes, the sense of speed is incredible. Again, why it's so much easier to stay in formation. I think waiting for next gen VR is good idea. But a word of warning to you. Whatever you do, do not play DCS in Rift. Else you'll start thinking of excuses to pull in your plan of waiting! :)

 

Enjoy.