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Magnetic Trim - Use it OR Not ?


SnowTiger
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Since the Gazelle was released there have been several patches that affect the way the Magnetic trim works or whether it should be used if/when you don't have Force Feedback.

Plus there was no Trim Release command until recently.

There are several contradictory YouTube Videos so that I no longer know what or who to believe with regards to the USE of Trim in the Gazelle.

 

From the beginning, since I do not have a FF hotas, I understood that I was to Not Use the Magnetic Trim.

I only use the Fine Trim which I have programmed to my X-55 Rhino HAT switch.

 

Initially this seemed fine. I could speed up and slow down using the Fine Tune Trim. And I could get the Gazelle to fly/cruise at or close to 200.

 

But then Trim Release was introduced (like that which we have in the Ka-50 and the Huey etc). I have seen videos that show people now using the Magnetic Trim even though they don't have FF.

 

Even so, it seems there is only so much Stick (cyclic) movement which the Fine Tune controls were able to go the full range of this minimal movement (stick travel distance ... sorry that I don't know how to better describe it). When using the Control Manager thingy to see where our controls are at, the Cyclic only moves about a quarter inch from the Neutral/Centered Position, in any direction.

 

Im sorry but even trying to explain my issue is difficult.

So all I am really trying to determine is DO we now need to use the Magnetic Trim (MT) even if we don't have FF ...OR is MT still specifically and only used for FF sticks ?

 

And if NOT using MT, and only using a Hat and Fine Trim controls, what is the Fastest a Combat Loaded Gazelle will fly ?

Because I can't get it to cruise anywhere near 200km (or knots or whatever it is) when only using the Fine Trim. I have to hold the Cyclic beyond the point which fine trim is capable of traveling the stick, in order to hit 200. This makes me think I need (and want) to use MT, even though I can push my stick ALL the way forward, hit my Trim button and the stick still only locks a quarter inch forward (as shown in the Controls Manager and In-Cockpit stick).

Using the Trim Hat, I can only ever get the Gazelle to cruise around 150 max.

 

Am I making any sense to anyone ?

Does anyone understand what it is I'm trying to ask here ?

I just want to be able to fly and have everything work like it should. Without breaking my wrist trying to do it.

PS> Does anyone know of any CURRENT up-to-date (with the latest patches) Videos that accurately explain the use of Fine Trim vs Magnetic Trim ?

SnowTiger:joystick:

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Yes. You should be using magnetic trim. Everyone should. It works like the other helicopter trim systems. Get flying the way you want, press and release the button, then re-center your joystick.

 

Once you use magnetic trim to get yourself close to how you want to be flying, use fine trim to get it just right.

Practice makes perfect.

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I don't have ff and use MT when ever I can,it makes long flights much easier.

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You guys realize that the hat trim has a limited range, right? It only goes so far. Magnetic trim lets you set trim your cyclic to anywhere at all.

 

You should set your rough trim with the magnetic brake, then fine tune your trim with the fine hat trim.


Edited by Socket7

Practice makes perfect.

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I turn on the trim button, the magnetic trim button and the AP button. I use the mag trim only and it works very well.

 

The only anomaly I have found is that sometimes the mag trim is limited in how far it will hold forward pressure. Sometimes I can hold enough forward to cruise around 210 Kph with only slight adjustments to hold altitude and sometimes it will not hold enough forward travel to even allow me to fly at 100 Kph.

 

Not sure if it's a bug or some small variation in how I configured the AP system on the ground. I have found no consistent way to reproduce the situation.

Sager Laptop, i7-6700k 4.00GHz, 16GB RAM, GTX 980M, 1920x1080, TIR 5, Windows 10

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The only anomaly I have found is that sometimes the mag trim is limited in how far it will hold forward pressure. Sometimes I can hold enough forward to cruise around 210 Kph with only slight adjustments to hold altitude and sometimes it will not hold enough forward travel to even allow me to fly at 100 Kph.

 

Not sure if it's a bug or some small variation in how I configured the AP system on the ground. I have found no consistent way to reproduce the situation.

Yes, I experience this too, and like you I've been trying to work out how to reliably reproduce it. I have a feeling there's something in the mission itself, but when I looked at the mission lua I couldn't see anything that seemed like it could even remotely be related.

 

I haven't tried the campaign for a while because the magnetic trim is never working properly for me in it. I had a test mission in 1.5 before the -L version was added and the magnetic trim was fixed for non-FFB users, and when I added the -L it worked fine but the -M already in it wasn't working. Deleted and re-added the -M and it worked fine for both.

 

For last week's update to 2.0 I made a new test mission there with an -M and -L version and found the magnetic trim was working with the -M but not the -L. So I'm still thoroughly perplexed.

 

I use the same startup procedure, and have even tried deliberately doing strange variations of the procedure, but can't seem to reliably break it during startup. So, I'm still leaning toward it being something to do with the mission itself.

 

Absolutely hate trying to fly without the magnetic trim! :mad:

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The Magnetic trim currently doesn't work with FFB stick, correct? Hence it is useless for such sticks, which is a bit of let down as it was suppose to be simulated best with FFB.

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I have a FFB controller and I used the registry edit to disable it as a FFB as far as the sim is concerned and yes I can use the Magnetic Trim just fine now.

 

In the latest update notes I see there is a reference to possibly fixing the trim bug but I cannot confirm that unless I re-edit my registry and try the trim again.

 

So I am going out on a limb and saying that the trim issue isn't just the Gazelle but affected the trim of many aircraft.

 

Has anybody tried the latest 8/5/16 update to see if trim has been fixed for FFB devices?

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Flying a helo without trim would be next to impossible especially for long periods of time. One very good thing that did come out of the FFB not trimming bug was that I learned (out of frustration) that slowing and landing transition in the Huey is much easier without using trim during it. I could "feel" my way through it and have much greater control. My technique now in both the Huey and Gazelle is to re-center the trim as I'm approaching and landing and not using any trim at all.

Sager Laptop, i7-6700k 4.00GHz, 16GB RAM, GTX 980M, 1920x1080, TIR 5, Windows 10

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It sounds like this topic is still up for debate.

Socket7 > I agree with all that you said. I was having difficulty explaining the "limited range" whether using the Fine Trim ONLY and/or the MT.

It is definitely limited with the Fine Trim but one can fly effectively with that alone however, I don't think we are getting full speed with that alone because "I think" that the MT allows a bit more forward movement of the stick than Fine Trim does (not sure about that - this was the case recently).

 

The fact is because of things like this, I haven't been flying anything since the Gazelle was released. I don't want to learn something only to have to relearn it again and again with each patch/update. It appears I'm still in that state after my most recent flight.

 

There is one thing I wish ED or Polychop could do and that is allow the Cyclic TRIGGER to Fire the Guns, Rockets and HOT3 missiles. There is a limited # of buttons on any controller. Without the Magnetic Trim, I can use a thumb button to fire missiles but with it, I'm left without a button to use for them ... since the Guns and Rockets are now fired with the Trigger but not the HOT3's. Since we either have one air frame or the other, why can't the same Firing Button work for All Weapons ?

SnowTiger:joystick:

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It is definitely limited with the Fine Trim but one can fly effectively with that alone however, I don't think we are getting full speed with that alone because "I think" that the MT allows a bit more forward movement of the stick than Fine Trim does (not sure about that - this was the case recently).

 

Magnetic trim just sets the center point of your cyclic axis. If you deflect your cyclic 50% forward and hit the magnetic trim button, your cyclic will center at that 50% forward deflection. In a real helicopter, the cyclic stick would move forward halfway and then be held there by the magnetic trim system. You can "center" the cyclic at any place you please.

 

For us simmers, there is no way to make a joystick center anywhere other than it's center, So when we use the magnetic trim, we have to re-center the joystick, while an actual pilot does no such thing, because his cyclic stick does not have the same limitation.

 

 

With the fine trim, you can only adjust your cyclic by a few degrees (I believe you can see how little by watching the controls indicator, but I could be wrong). It might be enough for flying in still air on a clear day, but if you add in a bit of wind and turbulence, you'll suddenly find the fine trim to be quite lacking.

 

The designers of the helicopter gave you both trim systems for a reason, It was not so that you could completely ignore one. Use them together, as they both have advantages and shortcomings. :thumbup:

Practice makes perfect.

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I will try the MT again. Maybe there is more range with it now.

The last time I tried using it, it didn't move the stick much further forward than the Fine Trim did without it.

Whereas in the Huey or BlackShark, if you moved your stick all the way forward and then hit the trim, it would stay in that position (all the way forward) as can be seen in the cockpit and the Control Manager.

I'll give it a try and see how it works. I'd certainly like it to work like the other choppers. But as stated, now I have to find and alternative for firing the HOT3's.

I'm not so sure about using a Modifier though. I haven't had to bother with those yet and was hoping to avoid it. But thanks for the suggestion Brixmis.

SnowTiger:joystick:

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The fact is because of things like this, I haven't been flying anything since the Gazelle was released. I don't want to learn something only to have to relearn it again and again with each patch/update. It appears I'm still in that state after my most recent flight.

 

I'm afraid you will have to accept to relearning, because the current flightmodel has some quite huge flaws (cyclic being centered in most flyingstates), it is actually currently impossible to fly standard helicopter procedures due to this very fact. I've spent quite some effort explaining this to the devs and I think they finally understood. For instance, decelerating a chopper works by moving cyclic aft and reducing power. If you apply aft cyclic to the current gazelle, it will continue rolling backwards until you stop applying aft cyclic/return to neutral, completely independent of the power setting, which is not how helicopters work. A real helicopter would only continue rolling backwards if you keep power applied, but as airspeed reduces during the following climb, this effect would lessen fast, thats why it is so hard to do backflips with helicopters. I have no reason to believe the gazelle is any different to all other helicopters, and so far nobody has stepped up and explained why the gazelle would be so much different to every single other helicopter (neither SAS nor fenstron would be an explanation).

I've tried my best to explain this to the best of my knowledge in a constructive manner.

That said, the OPs question on how to use magnetic trim can only yield a valid answer for the current version of the gazelle, and I currently would not even feel a need to use trim at all due to the reasons explained above (cyclic basically centered in all flightphases, unless you command an attitude change).

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I'm afraid you will have to accept to relearning, because the current flightmodel has some quite huge flaws

 

I'd just rather not bother flying at all.

There are many Flight "Games" out there that don't require relearning. You learn, you fly, you have fun ... albeit .. A Game !

 

I'll just wait a few more months until the dust settles, then I'll fly again.

Until then, DCS is dead to me.

SnowTiger:joystick:

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I'd just rather not bother flying at all.

There are many Flight "Games" out there that don't require relearning. You learn, you fly, you have fun ... albeit .. A Game !

 

I'll just wait a few more months until the dust settles, then I'll fly again.

Until then, DCS is dead to me.

 

WORD !

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I'm actually having a very difficult time with the trim and autopilot, and from a couple of posts mentioned it might* be a common issue.

 

First, there are 2 lists for magnetic brake in the control options for me. 1 seems to disable the trimmer, the other I have no idea- I would think it clicks the magnetic button on the stick, but it doesn't. Neither are listed under "pilot stick."

 

Therefore, I use the trimmer (I now understand is the magnetic trimmer) and sometimes it arbitrarily will not, absolutely will not work correctly. It's so bad it seems the auto pilot altitude hold doesn't have enough authority to work. Normally I would magnetic trim it pretty close to 0 fpm, maybe correcting with some inputs from the trim hat, and engage the hold button and it works perfectly, rock solid. And then the next mission it's not working. And, yes, I'm well above 120 for the altitude hold to kick in but the trim seems to be the issue not the AP.

 

Any guesses on I'm doing incorrectly here? Could it be a bug?

 

 

EDIT!!! I'm now seeing this thread and it may be the culprit. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=172046 The erroneous magnetic brake options may still be a common issue though.


Edited by scudrunner
clarity

- Moody

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  • 2 weeks later...

Any news on when we can expect FFB function in the Gazelle? I am using a modded MSFFB2 stick and simffb, but it does not feel right.... I am reluctant to rearrange my pit and revert to a sprung stick....

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I just got the Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with USB today so will test it this week sometime. If all goes well, will ship to Pat so he can have it to add the code.

 

Any news on when we can expect FFB function in the Gazelle? I am using a modded MSFFB2 stick and simffb, but it does not feel right.... I am reluctant to rearrange my pit and revert to a sprung stick....

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Poly, glad to hear it. It's easy to forget that no one is currently selling a FFB stick. Though they are generally available from eBay (and for much cheaper than their original price), it still isn't a mainstream product. Hence developers must prioritize their time and often leave FFB coding until later.

 

simFFB is a good alternative in the mean time. For those that don't know what it is, it implements a configurable amount of spring, friction, and hydraulic feel to the stick, as well as simulating the equivalent of Trim (using the HAT), or magnetic brake (using a button you choose in simFFB). It does these functions regardless of the sim you are running, but it works as if the sim was doing it.

 

It works by loading the sim (e.g. DCS), Alt-Tabbing out and running simFFB (or resetting the Direct Input from the simFFB menu), and simFFB takes over the FFB functions from DCS. This works equally well for aircraft in DCS whether they implement FFB or not. Because I like the ability to control the friction, spring force, and hydraulic feel of the stick, I tend to use simFFB even for DCS aircraft that have otherwise implemented FFB.

 

The down side about simFFB is it is not supported anymore and it is not available from any one web site. You have to google it and find it posted on a forum. So if you download it, make sure you get it from a source you trust.

 

I downloaded simFFB from this post:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1628706&postcount=43

 

I also have the source code, but I don't remember where I got it.

 

BTW, simFFB works great for helicopters, or jet sims, where trim functions and configurable stick force (spring, friction, and hydraulic feel) are what you are looking for, but not necessarily airspeed and stalling effects. Because simFFB completely replaces the FFB output from DCS, it is not so useful for prop sims where the FFB also needs to implement stuff like variable force on the stick due to stalling and wind speed. I.e. simFFB does not combine with the FFB effects from DCS. It replaces them completely.

 

Regards,

Michael

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I'm actually having a very difficult time with the trim and autopilot, and from a couple of posts mentioned it might* be a common issue.

 

First, there are 2 lists for magnetic brake in the control options for me. 1 seems to disable the trimmer, the other I have no idea- I would think it clicks the magnetic button on the stick, but it doesn't. Neither are listed under "pilot stick."

 

Therefore, I use the trimmer (I now understand is the magnetic trimmer) and sometimes it arbitrarily will not, absolutely will not work correctly. It's so bad it seems the auto pilot altitude hold doesn't have enough authority to work. Normally I would magnetic trim it pretty close to 0 fpm, maybe correcting with some inputs from the trim hat, and engage the hold button and it works perfectly, rock solid. And then the next mission it's not working. And, yes, I'm well above 120 for the altitude hold to kick in but the trim seems to be the issue not the AP.

 

Any guesses on I'm doing incorrectly here? Could it be a bug?

 

 

EDIT!!! I'm now seeing this thread and it may be the culprit. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=172046 The erroneous magnetic brake options may still be a common issue though.

 

I'm having the exact same issue with trim. I thought its real trimmer works like this. turn out it could be a bug, lol. I have to fight trimmer all the time. :joystick:

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