A serious discussion

[GGTharos]

Take for example a game i purchased called battlecruiser millenium (one of the most moderated boards ever - outside of china). I joined the forums to enquire about patches, and ingame tips.

 

The moderators took no prisoners here. All posts were with please and thankyous. In actual fact i was banned from these boards as i didn't know how to post my system specs so any questions i asked could be asnwered better. Of course i was informed my account will be reactivated once i updated my profile.

 

But that is my point. Allow poeple to carry on and they will. We are customers and that is no right to be rude. But we are customers and that it no right for us to be ignored on the product we have purchased.

 

Derek Smart is a :censored: and that's pretty much all there is to the nazi policing of that forum. There's pretty much nothing to admire about it.

The product isn't particularely polished, either; I played it far less than I play LOMAC. If you wanna see getting ignored, try starting up a discussion like this on his forums ;)

 

 

Yes i have enjoyed lomac. Have i flown it for years. No. I purchased vanilla lomac, used it for less than a month then it collected dust for about a year.

 

Have i been flying FC for years. No, i have only been flying it about a month now.

 

And yet many others stuck with it. Regardless, you've likely enjoyed it for longer than if you had bought a dvd or two for the same price.

 

SO ED, keep us in the loop. Keep talking to us and show us the fruits of your labour. Because i am interested.

 

You're not out of the loop. ED might not be saying a whole -lot-, but they have been taking care to release what news they can.

[bogusheadbox]

Derek Smart is a :censored: and that's pretty much all there is to the nazi policing of that forum. There's pretty much nothing to admire about it.

 

Ohhh you gave me a great laugh there. You are correct. But personal preferences aside. That is an idea of how well policed a forum can be.

 

I see derek's reputation proceeds him well. LOL

The product isn't particularely polished, either; I played it far less than I play LOMAC. If you wanna see getting ignored, try starting up a discussion like this on his forums ;)

I didn't get a chance too. Though i was graced with a kind PM (kind for him) i did vow never to buy another of his games ;-)

 

 

And yet many others stuck with it. Regardless, you've likely enjoyed it for longer than if you had bought a dvd or two for the same price.

 

Not sure i quite understand. Sorry.

 

You're not out of the loop. ED might not be saying a whole -lot-, but they have been taking care to release what news they can.

 

I thought they have been particularly tight lipped over the possiblility of fixing existing bugs since release, bugs introduced since 1.12a in contrary to the information divulged on the new content.

 

I am not out to see heads rolling down the alley. I just don't understand the common business model of release errors and let the public deal with it.

 

But they have released a partial SDK and that is good to see. Good work on that one ED

[GGTharos]

I thought they have been particularly tight lipped over the possiblility of fixing existing bugs since release, bugs introduced since 1.12a in contrary to the information divulged on the new content.

 

Hm, I disagree, but perhaps that is because I keep a close eye on things (or at least I try to). The devs have basically said that they to not wish to tweak up old code (this pretty much covers HUDs, nav systems, pits, whatever) because they want to just transfer everything to the new code base (te one developed specifically for BS) ... though this will not be done right away, all this transfer will be gradual.

[bogusheadbox]

Ok then

[Ardillita]

All of us have seen this kind of topic many times in the forum. But let´s be realistic:

 

1.- ED never gave an answer to any topic. I don´t pretend a company to answer all the question in all the forums arount internet, but... this forum is suposed to be the "oficial forum". So, in some way, ED just give a d.... about what WE THE CUSTOMERS want to say

 

2.- A russian publisher payed ED for makeing a K-50 simulation???? I thought it was us who were going to pay for the game...

 

3.- The direction ED is taking is the ED direction. Someone said K-50 is pretty popular in russia... of course it is, like apche would be in US, or the F22 to americans, but do not look for "excuses", in the russian forums are talking /complaining exactly about the same things like us, I don´t see tons of people requestin the K-50 simulation. So let´s face it: The request for a heli simulator seems to have appeared as a magic trick

 

4.- Thje worst: ok, ED will bring a heli simulator, so... all of we who payed for FC, Fuc.... ourselves and don´t expect any bug fix. "if you want, buy BS..." for sure will have tons of bugs wich of course we shouldn´t expect to be fixed, or as much we can expect SOME of the future bugs of the heli sim to be fixed, after that we will be waiting for a tank killer sim... and so on It is only me who thinks that this "developeing politic" is a crap?

[GGTharos]

I sure don't. THis isn't the only sim that's going to do things this way. Sorry, but I personally don't see $35 a yar a big price to pay, nor do I think a product should be supported indefinitely.

[Ardillita]

I sure don't. THis isn't the only sim that's going to do things this way. Sorry, but I personally don't see $35 a yar a big price to pay, nor do I think a product should be supported indefinitely.

 

Indefinitly? define that please, how many time passed since the first bugs came out, and all the bugs that never were fixed in the patches realeased?

 

Of course it don´t have to be manteined for ever, but... be more serious please.

[bogusheadbox]

Indefinitly? define that please, how many time passed since the first bugs came out, and all the bugs that never were fixed in the patches realeased?

 

Of course it don´t have to be manteined for ever, but... be more serious please.

 

Ok guys, lets keep this civil lest we actually get some moderation here.

 

GG, you seem like a good bloke. So i am definitely not trying to push buttons.

 

But the poster above has a point. 35 a year, 20 cents a year. Who cares.

 

I would still be upset, becuase i can see that ED have the wrong business plan and are now stuck in a rut where they have to abandon fixing what never worked or broke in the patch. In order to circumvent additional funding by getting he general consumer to pay ontop of what a privat firm wanted created.

 

I wouldn't mind if ED were commited to the title. That they are not and you have mentioned that yourself. Whether they want to or just because of monetary issues. Plane (excuse the pun) and simple they have abandoned this game "Warts and all" because its far simpler to take the money from a gift horse than to create a masterpiece.

[GGTharos]

I am quite serious. When you move on, and you don't have a dedicated team for SUPPORTING a project, you stop supporting that project. It's that's simple.

 

It doesn't matter wether I -wish- that the bugs were all fixed, they won't be, because there's no time to dedicate to them.

[Chicote]

I am quite serious. When you move on, and you don't have a dedicated team for SUPPORTING a project, you stop supporting that project. It's that's simple.

 

It doesn't matter wether I -wish- that the bugs were all fixed, they won't be, because there's no time to dedicate to them.

 

Agree, LOMAC's dead. BS is I assume pretty much a helo with no/minor attention to existing LOMAC issues. Time to move on and hope ED take note of the requests/hopes we had for LOMAC and hope they incorporate them in the next SIM whenever that is. To quote the NYPD "Move on nothing to see here...."

[VMFA-Blaze]

This is the same kind of mind set that we've been seeing since day one...

 

Haveing a bad day are you .... :cry_2:

 

Bugs exist, so what, I don't know what flight sim doesn't have them do you?

 

Anyway BS is just the tip of the iceburg (so to speak) there are a lot of things that ED has planned down the road .... I know Waiting Is A B****..

 

But its part of the world we live in... Theres a lot of Flight Sims that I'm waiting for and some times it's hard to deal with the problems that exist with the present ones, but I'm still here and still enjoying every minute of it...YES, even with the bugs...

 

I'm sure that ED is aware of all of the issues here, even more then us, so let them finish the next phase and when the new engine arrives things should be even better...

 

I'm not going away, anyway where would I go theres very few choises here and this one does have the best potential and its allready been released.... :bye:

 

 

Blaze

[Ardillita]

I am quite serious. When you move on, and you don't have a dedicated team for SUPPORTING a project, you stop supporting that project. It's that's simple.

 

It doesn't matter wether I -wish- that the bugs were all fixed, they won't be, because there's no time to dedicate to them.

 

I for sure think you are very wrong and I think you defend a position that can not be defended with solid arguments.

 

When you move on, you have to abandon everything. I agree TILL THAT POINT.

 

But, this is not a free project, ED is not giveing a gift to us. This is a product that ED is selling.

 

Correct me if Im wrong but, how long was the life of FC? months? I mean life in terms of support. We are not talking about misterious bugs... we talk about very detailed and documented bugs, that were requested to be fixed LOT of times. Yoiu can´t just say "I don´t care, you bought this, have it as it is, right now I don´t care if it fails or if it is not working how I told you it would work, right now I give a sh.... and I will move on into a new project", because this is a resumed terms what ED is telling us right now.

[GGTharos]

Agree, LOMAC's dead. BS is I assume pretty much a helo with no/minor attention to existing LOMAC issues.

 

 

Well, I'll disagree a bit with that: BS is not paying attention to -some- of LOMAC's existing issues, but much like FC, there will be stuff that will be looked at.

 

And then there's the whole 'what's a feature and what's a bug' thing, too.

[GGTharos]

I for sure think you are very wrong and I think you defend a position that can not be defended with solid arguments.

 

When you move on, you have to abandon everything. I agree TILL THAT POINT.

 

That's nice that you think of it from your point alone, with zero understanding of the fact that people have to be paid to write code. People expect bug fixes for free. Get it? ;)

 

But, this is not a free project, ED is not giveing a gift to us. This is a product that ED is selling.

 

Correct. And for $35, you got far, FAR more support that you'd have gotten for that price if you had contracted a software shop to write software of this complexity from you.

 

Correct me if Im wrong but, how long was the life of FC? months? I mean life in terms of support. We are not talking about misterious bugs... we talk about very detailed and documented bugs, that were requested to be fixed LOT of times. Yoiu can´t just say "I don´t care, you bought this, have it as it is, right now I don´t care if it fails or if it is not working how I told you it would work, right now I give a sh.... and I will move on into a new project", because this is a resumed terms what ED is telling us right now.

 

Yes, I'll correct you: You're wrong.

When the money runs out, and it's time to move onto the next project, which is PAID for, you simply have to do -just- that. That is reality.

 

I'm sure you don't like it. I don't like it. But them's the breaks.

[S77th-GOYA]

ED might not be saying a whole -lot-, but they have been taking care to release what news they can.

 

Completely untrue.

 

they want to just transfer everything to the new code base (te one developed specifically for BS)

 

BS will include two codes?

 

THis isn't the only sim that's going to do things this way. Sorry, but I personally don't see $35 a yar a big price to pay, nor do I think a product should be supported indefinitely.

 

I agree completely. And all of that is completely irrelevent to the discussion.

 

I -wish- that the bugs were all fixed, they won't be, because there's no time to dedicate to them.

 

Are you saying ED is incapable of making a sim without a bunch of frustrating bugs, flawed modelling and limitations? They just don't have the manpower to do it right and still release new products to keep solvent?

 

BS is not paying attention to -some- of LOMAC's existing issues, but much like FC, there will be stuff that will be looked at.

 

[see the first part of this post.]

 

That's nice that you think of it from your point alone, with zero understanding of the fact that people have to be paid to write code. People expect bug fixes for free. Get it? ;)

 

What you don't seem to get is that people expect to buy a product that has been tested to perform as it should. Software is the only product that expects its customers to buy it off the shelf needing repairs. So yes, people expect bug fixes for free because they are expected to pay their money for a faulty product. They also expect patches that don't create new bugs and unrealistic modelling.

 

Correct. And for $35, you got far, FAR more support that you'd have gotten for that price if you had contracted a software shop to write software of this complexity from you.

 

WTF?

 

Yes, I'll correct you: You're wrong.

 

Completely untrue. The life of FC has been months. From what we have been told the support of FC died with 1.12a.

 

When the money runs out, and it's time to move onto the next project, which is PAID for, you simply have to do -just- that. That is reality.

 

I'm sure you don't like it. I don't like it. But them's the breaks.

 

Again, you imply that ED cannot support its products to the expectations of its customers with the income the sale of that product generates.

 

And no, I don't like it. But I'm not going to just bend over and try to smile either. It appears there are plenty of others who feel the same.

[emenance]

Damn good thing your not into the Tom Clancy series. Now thats a big time fiasco there. LOMAC Hasnt even been sequeled yet .......:) Looking at this thread after looking at the Tom Clancy stuff thats NINE years old is a trip. UBisoft is blowing up a whole franchise not only with mistakes bugs and problems but with console porting and greed. I hate to sound like im defending somebody here but in comparison , I really cant see ED blowing up this sim now or in the future....... Its only been 3 1/2 years though :)

[UWBuRn]

Are you saying ED is incapable of making a sim without a bunch of frustrating bugs, flawed modelling and limitations? They just don't have the manpower to do it right and still release new products to keep solvent?

 

...

 

What you don't seem to get is that people expect to buy a product that has been tested to perform as it should. Software is the only product that expects its customers to buy it off the shelf needing repairs. So yes, people expect bug fixes for free because they are expected to pay their money for a faulty product. They also expect patches that don't create new bugs and unrealistic modelling.

 

...

 

Completely untrue. The life of FC has been months. From what we have been told the support of FC died with 1.12a.

 

...

 

Again, you imply that ED cannot support its products to the expectations of its customers with the income the sale of that product generates.

 

Goya, i quote theese point 100%

As you said there are others thinking that way.

 

GG, WTF, i bought FC, there are MANY bugs, so if i want a patch that (maybe) will correct them i must buy BS? Well, it's not for the bucks, BUT this way of selling software is really nice :disgust:

[brewber19]

GG, WTF, i bought FC, there are MANY bugs, so if i want a patch that (maybe) will correct them i must buy BS? Well, it's not for the bucks, BUT this way of selling software is really nice :disgust:

 

Erm....when people mention bugs do they really mean "my missile isn't uber and can't kill a bandit from 500km away"? or "my plane should be able to p0wn everything else in the sky without me having to try" etc

 

Can you give me a quick rundown of the most serious bugs, cos I play FC almost every night for a couple of hours, multiplayer mostly, and don't experience any significant functionality bugs...i get the occasional gfx oddity, but that can be attributed to many things.

 

I'm sure FC isn't perfect, what software is, but the strength of negative feeling re: bugs isn't commensurate with my experience of the game.

 

Thanks in advance and this post isn't intended as a "stop whining" post, I'm just very curious as to the many bugs that I don't get which, as an occasional mission builder for the 504 training/fun flights, I would expect to trip across.

[UWBuRn]

Erm....when people mention bugs do they really mean "my missile isn't uber and can't kill a bandit from 500km away"? or "my plane should be able to p0wn everything else in the sky without me having to try" etc

 

Thoose aren't the right terms, IMO "my missiles are screwed up" fits better... and for a sims that has in the title the words "modern air combat" missiles don't working properly is a major flaw.

Anyway if you look in the first page i've posted some of the things that for me are very annoing. Also i would add to them that the editor is quite painful to use if you want to plan complex missions and the AI many times takes stupid initiatives.

[Ardillita]

Erm....when people mention bugs do they really mean "my missile isn't uber and can't kill a bandit from 500km away"? or "my plane should be able to p0wn everything else in the sky without me having to try" etc

 

Can you give me a quick rundown of the most serious bugs, cos I play FC almost every night for a couple of hours, multiplayer mostly, and don't experience any significant functionality bugs...i get the occasional gfx oddity, but that can be attributed to many things.

 

I'm sure FC isn't perfect, what software is, but the strength of negative feeling re: bugs isn't commensurate with my experience of the game.

 

Thanks in advance and this post isn't intended as a "stop whining" post, I'm just very curious as to the many bugs that I don't get which, as an occasional mission builder for the 504 training/fun flights, I would expect to trip across.

 

 

Well finally I see people with the same point of view (Goya, UWBuR and othjers). The quote: no man, with I think everybody means things like radar seeing anemy through mountains, IA with incorrect çdamage models (you hit 1 engine and they still can have full speed, WTF...) and things like that. I think that if you are saying this, you have not flown enough. Try to do a MP refuelling and let´s see if you can see a basquet... that bug is there since flanker 2.5x !!!!!

 

No, definitly GG you are in a position trying to defend ED "policy", policy that in my opinion and in many others opinion is WRONG and has no defense.

[EvilBivol-1]

I can get a basket...

[brewber19]

yeah, me too, I just can't see it tho! (until ur right on top of it anyways).

 

re: radar seeing thru hills, dunno, I fly a bomber and you festering fighter jocks seem to find me easily enough :(

 

re: AI....yeah AI has uber FM that bears no relation to realworld physics...this was been the case since 1.0 but I rarely fly against AI A/C...not alot of fun in that.

 

 

Hmmm, thanks for the info though (Id forgotten about the refuelling bug!). For me, I'll be getting BS because I'm a rotor head and I already only fly the Su25/T...fighters hold no attraction for me since 1.0 really. If it fixes other bugs, great, if not, no big deal for me cos very few busg seems to affect the Su25T...other than the all-seeing radar (but thats just how it feels on the receiving end....I have no idea if its actually the case).

[GGTharos]

Nah, radar doesn't see through mountains. That bug -was- there, but it was fixed -very- quickly. You're likely being bounced by fighters who might be taking measures to make this terrain masking more difficult for you ;) (Ie. going high enough to reduce effectiveless of masking)

[Ardillita]

Nah, radar doesn't see through mountains. That bug -was- there, but it was fixed -very- quickly. You're likely being bounced by fighters who might be taking measures to make this terrain masking more difficult for you ;) (Ie. going high enough to reduce effectiveless of masking)

 

 

No, as ED tester you are very bad informed... ewr statios STILL can see through mountains and pass the information to long range battery guns. That bug still is on 1.12a. What was fixed, was not really a fix, ED just made a simulation to the fighters so it seems that the uber radar was fixed, but it seems they forgot about ewr stations ;). Look in the forum and you will see you are wrong. There are tracks posted too.

 

I think you are talking about the kind of fixes like the range of 27er... like just changeing the value on the hud screen instead of really fixing the max range of the missile. So, we have a missile that has the same range, the fix is just that the pilot gets the fire permision later... but you can still launch with override... the same happened with the radar, the human pilot can´t see or use the ubber radar, but IA still can, so? where is the fix.

 

Come on...

[Guest IguanaKing]

I agree, the ground-based radars in the game can still see through mountains. If you use terrain masking, those radars are still waiting, and SAMs immediately fire on you as you crest a ridge. Granted, they don't show on the RWR until you crest that ridge, but the radar still knows exactly where you are the instant you become visible. Lock and launch the instant you come above the mountain. There were no enemy fighters or AWACS in the air when this happened. The bug is still there.