Can the AIM-54 take down fighter aircraft

[BlackLion213]

The 54C and 54A use the same engine part.

 

One small correction, at least per this reference (page 2 under propulsion) , the AIM-54A and AIM-54C use different rocket motors.

 

The AIM-54A uses the Mk 60 mod 0 while the AIM-54C uses the Mk 47 mod 1. :)

 

-Nick

[GGTharos]

Smokeless is typically less powerful ;)

I have looked quite hard for data regarding the missile motor; regardless of anything else, the motor mass is such that I just don't see the 54C being faster than the 54A. Doesn't mean I can't be wrong, it just doesn't look terribly likely.

[Jaktaz]

beat me to the 1 million dollar question, as someone said on here before, this is the tomcat's only claim to bvr fighting, and if the phoenix can be fooled easily then the tomcat crew is gonna have to get their hands dirty.

 

Sounds good to me :lol:

[Jaktaz]

The REALITY is we're a bunch of armchair commandos who think our book research and education validate reality based on the public knowledge available. Most of the time this ignores the human in the loop and gives way too much credibility to (random book) and (random pilot who flies KC-135s but once refueled a tomcat carrying AIM-54s).

Reality was the AIM-54A was tested from and fired in MADDOG mode and fired at a closing target that broke DOWN and HARD (6g) to defeat the missile radar(beam). The missile test was a success because it passed within "lethal distance" of the QF-86 drone. This most likely was done to save the drone, not because the missile didn't fuse properly, and to observe how close the missile could get to a DH on a maneuvering target.

 

Short answer- yes, no problem, your in-game RWR wont give you the time to react, but an effective ground based EW or AWACs should give you enough SA to react to it. Remember it is dropping down from on high- so your forward aimed jamming and RWR doesn't matter. If you have an high end RWR (Western type) It may be slightly more effective depending on your antenna installation and direction. Remember the MiG-23s tactic against the F-15/F-16 was to attack from below or above as the RWR coverage wasn't effective there. When the shots in Iraq missed, it was because of a bad missile install(rockets didn't arm), and a perfect high speed profile flown by a MiG-25 that also dodged multiple AIM-7 and AIM-120 from F-15s. FWIW the missile tracked perfectly, but was ran out of Schlitz due to a high speed beam and run by the MiG-25. This of course from public documents.

 

Your probably right. The missile burned up high most likely because thats where the air is thinner and it can make more out of its short thrust time, but the diving action it did would force a new dynamic on the target. As someone else said, the rwr won't always catch the missile, and for most planes the F-14 will be firing the Phoenix out of their sensor range.

[The Black Swan]

My question is why did they retire it????

[QuiGon]

My question is why did they retire it????

 

Because they retired the F-14 ;)

[The Black Swan]

:( Aww... So what is it about the AMRAAM other than its active radar that makes it a viable replacement? Or is that info not really clear to the public?

[Exorcet]

If we are talking a sub angels 15 target that takes evasive action, that big AIM-54 will definitely bleed like crazy if it tries to turn in the thick air down low, but the AIM-54 is still dropping from60-70k as it adjusts for maneuvering through 30k.

 

I've also wondered if the high altitude profile would hinder the missile against an agile target. The air is so thin that turning simply becomes problematic at 100,000 ft. You might not immediately know that an AIM-54 was fired, but you might know that an F-14 is in the air, and you could act on that accordingly.

 

The AIM-54 would still have a range advantage over everything, but extreme range shots might be very difficult against fighters. Unfortunately the data to back it up is hard to come by. Just a thought.

[GGTharos]

It can be carried by F-18's, it has very good performance at range, the guts are all new and flat out much better than the AIM-54's (which could have been upgraded also, but without an F-14 to launch it, it's just not needed).

 

You can bring AIM-120's back to the boat, so you can always launch with a full complement.

 

:( Aww... So what is it about the AMRAAM other than its active radar that makes it a viable replacement? Or is that info not really clear to the public?

[BlackLion213]

It can be carried by F-18's, it has very good performance at range, the guts are all new and flat out much better than the AIM-54's.

 

Maybe...but from what I've read the AIM-120 is using systems that are incrementally improved over what was found in the AIM-54 (at least the C variant). The guidance system from the AIM-54C was funneled directly into the AMRAAM program (per reports). Having newer variants means that the current AMRAAM's systems are better, but probably not night and day different IMHO.

 

It can be carried by F-18's, it has very good performance at range.

 

You can bring AIM-120's back to the boat, so you can always launch with a full complement.

 

This is the real advantage and why the AIM-54 became an anachronism. Everyone wanted the AIM-54's unique capabilities in a package that was small and could be carried in large numbers by US fighters.

 

Even the 40,000 lb Tomcat would only carry 2 Phoenixes under normal conditions vs 6 AMRAAMs for the F-15 (despite the smaller airframe). Plus the AMRAAM has about 60-70% of the Phoenix's range. Having 6 AMRAAMs is a better loadout with fewer performance trade-offs compared to 2 AIM-54s (which still weigh as much as all 6 of those AMRAAMs, not to mention the Phoenix pallets).

 

It's just the steady evolution of a weapon system, the AMRAAM is the end goal, but wasn't always technologically possible - hence the Phoenix.

 

-Nick

[The Black Swan]

Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. Still surprised we don't have a more modern version of the Phoenix. Then again, do we actually know the real range of the newest AMRAAMS?

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. Still surprised we don't have a more modern version of the Phoenix. Then again, do we actually know the real range of the newest AMRAAMS?

 

The AIM-120D has around 150-180km of range.

[Tirak]

Maybe...but from what I've read the AIM-120 is using systems that are incrementally improved over what was found in the AIM-54 (at least the C variant). The guidance system from the AIM-54C was funneled directly into the AMRAAM program (per reports). Having newer variants means that the current AMRAAM's systems are better, but probably not night and day different IMHO.

 

 

 

This is the real advantage and why the AIM-54 became an anachronism. Everyone wanted the AIM-54's unique capabilities in a package that was small and could be carried in large numbers by US fighters.

 

Even the 40,000 lb Tomcat would only carry 2 Phoenixes under normal conditions vs 6 AMRAAMs for the F-15 (despite the smaller airframe). Plus the AMRAAM has about 60-70% of the Phoenix's range. Having 6 AMRAAMs is a better loadout with fewer performance trade-offs compared to 2 AIM-54s (which still weigh as much as all 6 of those AMRAAMs, not to mention the Phoenix pallets).

 

It's just the steady evolution of a weapon system, the AMRAAM is the end goal, but wasn't always technologically possible - hence the Phoenix.

 

-Nick

 

It's the pallets that are the real kick in the gut, they're hilariously heavy. Two wing glove pylon Phoenix's, 4 Sparrows and 2 Sidewinders is what I envision to be the primary multiplayer loadout... Aside from the 6 Phoenix spam launches we'll also see.

[The Black Swan]

The AIM-120D has around 150-180km of range.

 

Whoa.... I take it that's for shots fired from high altitude right?

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Whoa.... I take it that's for shots fired from high altitude right?

 

Of course...

[Vampyre]

Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. Still surprised we don't have a more modern version of the Phoenix.

 

It was being worked on. This is the ACIMD, one of two inert shapes built for the project. It was designed in China Lake... the same place that designed the Sidewinder. It is one of three different designs for a Phoenix replacement. The other two designs never made it off the drawing board. These missiles would have eventually been known as the AIM-152A had the cold war not ended. I first saw this missile shape when I was stationed at China Lake... I used to volunteer at the Armament Museum on the weekends which usually involved servicing tires and moving jets around. They have some really interesting subjects there.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Vampyre

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Wow, I didn't know that...

This would be used in the F-14E Super Tomcat?

 

 

It was being worked on. This is the ACIMD, one of two inert shapes built for the project. It was designed by NAWC-WD in China Lake.. the same place that designed the Sidewinder. It is one of three different designs for a Phoenix replacement. The other two designs never made it off the drawing board. These missiles would have eventually been known as the AIM-152A had the cold war not ended. I first saw this missile shape when I was stationed at China Lake... I used to volunteer at the Armament Museum on the weekends which usually involved servicing tires and moving jets around. They have some really interesting subjects there.

[GGTharos]

Probably 50000' launch from an M1.8 F-22.

 

Not much different from a 54 for getting the same range.

 

Whoa.... I take it that's for shots fired from high altitude right?

[Coyote Duster]

It's the pallets that are the real kick in the gut, they're hilariously heavy. Two wing glove pylon Phoenix's, 4 Sparrows and 2 Sidewinders is what I envision to be the primary multiplayer loadout... Aside from the 6 Phoenix spam launches we'll also see.

 

I'd probably go with 4 phoenix two sidewinders and 2 sparrows, it's gonna be real interesting on the 104th server especially with squadrons or even just a pair of tomcats who know what their doing..... best bet would be for the Russians to do what they always do which would be to disappear and try to avoid roving f-14s with the awg-9 doing deep scans.

[SUBS17]

Some great info here as always.

 

Besides the whole aspect of the AIM-54's capability to kill a fighter sized target - info from Bio is always great considering he was a F-14 RIO and the Phoenix was a "RIO missile". He is quite admiring of it's capability.

 

Regardless of that, launching an AIM-54 would provoke a response from a threatened target pretty quickly I imagine *if detected* and this may result in the further exposure of the enemy - ie ECM/counter measure use etc.. which would expose the aircraft to other aircraft/weapons/radars out there.

 

I clearly have no idea what F-14 BVR combat doctrine would be :P but I imagine that AIM-54 wouldn't be alone if in Sparrow range or if the F-14 had a friend, and they never flew alone.

 

The design is to act as a missile platform, in BVR the Tomcat launches its AIM54s at standoff range then rtb and reload and return. Because ROE they have to ID their tgt 1st so the missile platform with AIM54s changed to a mix with sparrows and Aim9s and the addition of a TV that can ID tgts at long range. (TCS) F-14s are good in WVR in the right hands and have shot down aircraft in WVR and won dogfights against Mig29s, F-15s and SU27s IRL.

[Darkbrotherhood7]

F-14s are good in WVR in the right hands and have shot down aircraft in WVR and won dogfights against Mig29s, F-15s and SU27s IRL.

Yep.

In this video below you can see an F-14 getting a kill over an MIG-29G(3:50 minutes):

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[SUBS17]

BTW regarding tactics to defeat the Aim54, the Iraqis flew with Mirage that had RWR and if they were painted by the F-14s radar often headed in the other direction. As for other aircraft types back then most aircraft had no RWR so absolutely no warning of either the F-14 or the Aim54.

[The Black Swan]

Probably 50000' launch from an M1.8 F-22.

 

Not much different from a 54 for getting the same range.

 

Gotcha, I wasn't sure if missle ranges were listed that way or not.

[GGTharos]

Missile ranges are deliberately listed without any accompanying information :)

[Tirak]

I'd probably go with 4 phoenix two sidewinders and 2 sparrows, it's gonna be real interesting on the 104th server especially with squadrons or even just a pair of tomcats who know what their doing..... best bet would be for the Russians to do what they always do which would be to disappear and try to avoid roving f-14s with the awg-9 doing deep scans.

 

The problem with that loadout is you have to bring the pallets, something the 2 Phoenix loadout doesn't have to do. The pallets are very heavy, and reduce the aerodynamic effect of the pancake, taking away some of your maneuverability edge.