Suggestions from a new user to bring in other new users

[rickberry49]

As a new user I'm not sure who is in control of this forum, is it DCS or ???

 

But it seems that TRAINING is a HUGE issue with this AWESOME but very complex simulation. You can PLAY IT like any other game (shoot em up bang bang) but if you want to really know what it is like to be a combat pilot, I have never seen anything like it before. PREPARE 3D is another awesome simulator if you what to learn to fly. But for combat this is it......!!!!!

 

SLYDOG486 started a post about needed quality training videos, and many points were well taken and should be considered by anyone making a video especially a training video:

Avoid long commentary that doesn't address the topic at hand

Eliminate LONG sections where we just watch you fly or taxi and nothing else

Make any control picks clear and close up if possible, the DCS training highlights the buttons

SPEAK CLEARLY and slowly

PLEASE, eliminate the BOBBLE HEAD movements unless it involves a tactical view of something

Keep the training videos as short and focused as you can, too much info overload in some cases

 

Given the above comments, I have found several excellent videos in the newly created (and much appreciated great work) YOUTUBE TRAINING LINK: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC90p6sHsL5PN_urMRz65NyA

 

Also, Cudo's to the 476th on their efforts, their videos are great and very well produced, so it is my feeling that if future video makers will follow these examples and avoid the issues above we have a great start... But, this is a very complex simulator and a new user who has never been a pilot is going to find it frustrating and that is bad news for the existing users and for DCS...

 

DCS or who ever created this amazing SIM has created a good start in their training section to make it easier to learn this SIM but MUCH MORE is needed in my opinion, NOT only from DCS but the user community as well. I have seen many amazing videos about available missions and campaigns that you guys are working on. And I know the work it takes to do this.... (it's HUGE). But, if you want to grow your user base you have got to also focus on getting the new user up to speed. Many postings I see are for the SAME issues from another frustrated new user. Perhaps, make a video to address the issue and then simply point the user to it, problem solved.

 

Now, supplemental to all the training videos, manuals etc... What I believe we need for new users, and I don't even begin to know how or where the mission creator guys are but...

 

Having a section or page devoted to links to find other free and $$ missions/campaigns (especially training) with the ability to capture feedback from the users would be great. Short focused training missions are what I see are missing for new users.

 

These two pages (youtube channel and Missions/Campaigns) should be prominent on the FORUM like the WIKI link... so any new guests can easily find them. I should think this would be something DCS would really want to promote in order to grow your user base.

 

A frustrated new user, who stops using the SIM will only have BAD things to say about it, and this is not good for the existing users or DCS... The more skilled a user becomes the more they will want to purchase. This community is INCREDIBLE in their willingness to provide free information, missions etc... and God bless you for it. But, I don't have a problem pitching in a few bucks to a developer who creates another awesome mission or campaign, just don't get greedy...!!! The more skilled users you have the more potential market you have. So it is worth your time to get the new users up and running...

 

I have worked in the computer industry for 30 years as a CAD/CAM Consultant and I can tell you that the customers who were well trained and productive with their systems purchased more equipment and training than those who tried to do it on their own.

 

I have all I can do to learn to fly this thing, and know nothing about building missions etc... but I am willing to BETA test or help in whatever way I can to promote more QUALITY training missions for the new users.

 

Let me know what you think or how I can help. I'm new and really don't know all the big players yet..

[Slydog486]

Hey, thanks for starting a new post about this. I'm beginning to think that this is the route to go down in order to teach newer players how to fly. New training missions and videos do need to be made, and should also be made by the same people each time to keep up with consistency. A single series is much easier to follow than a giant mashup of 200 videos. Thanks for all the great suggestions Rick, and I'll see you in the skies!

 

 

[TBS] [TFP] Slydog486, Veteran DCS Noob

 

Sent from OnePlus Two.

[Pikey]

There is not a one size fits all training agenda that could fit, given the monstrous size of the subject matter and also its background learning which presumably has General Aviation in it, which incidentally as a Youtube topic, is something people pay thousands to learn and buy materials for.

 

You 670 page A-10C manual does not lend itself to 5 minute lunch and learns, and if someone were to take it on, the 10 hours of videos that just scratch the surface are missing swathes of underlining procedure knowledge and geenral aviation terms that simply put would take many months of dedicated work to produce.

 

Yet, as you found, there's loads of content out there. Some of it is indexed and some is delivered one to one or classroom based in squadrons. Usually from people who spent years learning about it. I spent a year as a training officer in one of the larger squadrons and delivering training is challenging in this arena and takes a lot more effort. But the worst part is, its not suitable for every person out there that wants to learn. I've constantly battled trying to teach people who aren't even interested in flying a pattern and just want to blow shit up, a broken record that destroys my soul and many others.

 

This is a study sim and expects a mature self starter thats going to invest their time. Whilst I agree with the sentiment it needs good training, I do not think a broad scope is in the mandate of what Eagle Dynamics should provide and the community has filled that hole more than adequately for those that want to spend time discovering the details of that particular (and most other) modules.

 

If you think it might help, indexing the videos and materials is always something that is worth rechecking. Links get broken, videos are improved upon or lost, new guides appear.

[Yurgon]

I agree with Pikey here.

 

I think there aren't many topics left in regards to the A-10C that aren't covered by a video or even a series of videos yet. Yes, it may be hard to find the good ones, but they are there, ranging from how to set up the controls, then how to fly, and most of them focus on more advanced topics like weapons in general or even specific attack profiles for specific weapons.

 

Some people suggest reading the entire manual several times. I'm not part of that club, but the manual is an amazing and in-depth reference for almost all of the A-10C's systems and it definitely doesn't hurt to read it in its entirety or at least parts of it.

 

Maybe someday someone (or rather a group of people) will take on the task of creating a tutorial series that covers everything from installing DCS World, to the first steps, to learning to fly, to combat employment and advanced topics. But honestly, the endeavor is sooo massive, I wouldn't bet on it ever happening - and mostly because all the content is there already, just not by any single person or group.

 

Finally, the good news is that a new A-10C training campaign based in NTTR will be coming up, which connects with other campaigns that will probably be more focused on combat and tactics after the training part is over.

[Overparduffer]

Bunyap Sims content on YouTube has helped me more than anything else. His on the range series covers specific topics in 10-15 minute sessions but even watching his single player campaigns helps a lot as he is constantly telling you exactly what he's is thinking, why he's doing what he's doing, etc. Some of it is slow paced (particularly if you just want to blow shit up) but it's very good IMO.

[rickberry49]

I absolutely agree with EVERYTHING you guys have said...!!!!

Plenty of videos out there, but as a newbee I had trouble determining who knew what they were talking about and who was not. I say one video where the pilot said "I've seen lots of videos on the subject and there is a lot of miss information in them." The advanced guys on this forum I think have done an amazing job helping answer questions from new users. Me included...!!! But, with a little effort I think we could create a page where links to QUALITY training is readily available to the new user. The stuff from 476th for example, amazing work.. and their new "476th - 476TTP 3-3.A10 - 24APR16_CombatFund.pdf" manual !!!! This info should not be buried in another THREAD but right up front and "STICKY" I guess it the proper term.

 

And I also very much agree if you just want to go out and blow ^%$^% up there are many other simpler GAMES out there. But we need a balance to draw in new and "willing to put the time in" users.

 

But my other suggestion is for more training focused missions. All the theory, example videos, manuals etc are very much needed but hands on practice in a controlled focused mission will go a long way to building the skill necessary to fly this thing. This is something I have not been able to find. If NTTR is on the way, GREAT.. this will definitely help and I'm looking forward to it.

 

If others are available please post them here and show me how to make a STICKY PAGE and/or hook it to the existing WIKI and I'll be happy to try and start organizing some of the existing QUALITY work so many of you have put so much time into.

 

Given the extraordinary amount of work I've seen in manuals, videos, missions/campaigns all that is needed is effort to BEGIN to try an organize it a bit, qualify it for quality and accuracy and make it readily available "links if necessary" in ONE place on this forum (like the WIKI) would make it just a bit easier to get a new user started. Perhaps the WIKI guy is the place for this???

 

I'm new at this forum thing so let me know who (advanced users) to link up with and I'll be happy to get started....

[Charly_Owl]

Most of the stuff in here is aimed directly at new guys who start from scratch.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135765

 

No matter how many training missions there are... in my experience the most important part of teaching a new aircraft is to

 

1) Have a structured approach that is gradual and flows naturally

2) Explain in simple terms that do not require a NASA course in aerospace to understand

3) Not cram too much stuff at once and go step by step in order to not overwhelm the student

Edited May 20, 2016 by Charly_Owl

[rickberry49]

Chuck,

Your points are right on and exactly what I'm trying to promote but with actual missions created with these points in mind.

 

Again, an amazing amount of great work on the A10 MANUAL, it's in my library now thanks..!!!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-uSpZROuEd3VEJOVlRvODNyREU/view

 

But reading alone is not going to help make skilled users, they need to PRACTICE in a mission SPECIFICALLY CREATED ON THE SUBJECT using your points above. I taught HIGH END CAD/CAM systems for 25 of my 30 years as a consultant. And I can tell you that all the reading and lectures did not create good users. I created focused training labs that allowed them to put what they just heard or read to actual use and allowed for repetitive practice with different options and techniques. These users excelled over others who just read the manuals and then tried to learn on their own. I see this in the many videos out there, some guys have really LEARNED the concepts and not just how to fly the SIM. These are the guys this SIM was created for, and I suppose (I know) many of them spent years learning. I'm retired (thank God) and have the time to put in, and do... But, for many new users who still have a family to support and don't have unlimited time, it would be nice to provide a single place on THIS FORUM where they can get links to quality, manuals, see quality example videos, and either download free or purchased quality training missions prepared specifically for the topic a hand.

I also went to your You Tube channel link provided and again an amazing amount of collective videos... but If I'm trying to JUST find A10 stuff a page with direct link(s) to all your great work on just the A10 would be most helpful to a new and (usually lost) user.

[rickberry49]

Dog,

 

I'm new to all of this but if I can help to create a centralized place (this Forum, the WIKI or ???) please send me a message with details on what I can do to help.

 

I'd love to fly multiplayer, someday, but right now I'm just trying not to get shot down and get all this stuff into this OLD Brain... What I'm talking about in the Focused training missions would help tremendously... and I got to know others would benefit too... not to mention potential future income if we can grow the user base. Many dedicated users are creating GREAT stuff and much of it at no cost (thank you from this new user...!!!) But, as I said, I know what it takes to create this stuff (I just don't know how to do it myself) and what I'm proposing is not going to happen over night. But, if we keep moving forward with new stuff and the idea of creating some of it (not all of it) with the new user in mind we will start to see the ranks grow and that will be good for DCS and the existing users as well.

 

Keep me posted...???

[BSS_Sniper]

I can't say that I've ever really seen what you're talking about. Yes, I've had to pick through things here and there, but in the end I found exactly what I needed. You said you've been working in the computer industry, no offense here,(i'm not young anymore either) but I've found that the older someone is when they get into aviation, especially complex aircraft, the harder it is for them. I was lucky in that I grew up in aviation and I fly for a living so learning an extra system (weapons) was pretty easy. I can see where you're coming from but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you say. Everything is out there. Just pick one video, learn it and move to the next. Do it in pieces. Like someone mentioned already, you can't sit and learn any of this in 5 minutes, especially if you're new to aviation.

[baltic_dragon]

Now, supplemental to all the training videos, manuals etc... What I believe we need for new users, and I don't even begin to know how or where the mission creator guys are but...

 

Having a section or page devoted to links to find other free and $$ missions/campaigns (especially training) with the ability to capture feedback from the users would be great. Short focused training missions are what I see are missing for new users.

 

I totally agree with you. And as Yurgon mentioned in anwer to similar questions / suggestions you have made that show up on this forums quite often (and you really did an excellent analysis and summary of the problem) we have started working on a dedicated campaign to address exactly that. If you click at this link you will find many more details, below just an outline:

 

The campaign will simulate a real training and will cover everything that you need to know to become proficient with the Hog. Starting from startup, through all the systems, weapons employment, target recognition, air refuelling - the list is very, very long. On top of all the instructions and specially designed training scenarios that will let you learn what you have just learned, it will have a deep background and storyline and will be linked with future campaigns (M2000C in NTTR and A-10C in Strait of Hormuz).

 

As we plan to implement advanced radio procedures (like the ones you might find in Enemy Within), Air Tasking Orders based in real life, FRAGOs etc one if the aims of this campaign will also be to familiarize you with these, to make flying future ones easier.

 

Now this is an enormous task. Just the amount of things we will have to cover in the first missions shows that we will end up with thousands of lines of VOs and hours upon hours of instructions and interaction. But if we want to have an immersive and useful campaign that is the only way to do it.

 

I agree with Pikey here.

 

I think there aren't many topics left in regards to the A-10C that aren't covered by a video or even a series of videos yet. Yes, it may be hard to find the good ones, but they are there, ranging from how to set up the controls, then how to fly, and most of them focus on more advanced topics like weapons in general or even specific attack profiles for specific weapons.

 

Some people suggest reading the entire manual several times. I'm not part of that club, but the manual is an amazing and in-depth reference for almost all of the A-10C's systems and it definitely doesn't hurt to read it in its entirety or at least parts of it.

 

Maybe someday someone (or rather a group of people) will take on the task of creating a tutorial series that covers everything from installing DCS World, to the first steps, to learning to fly, to combat employment and advanced topics. But honestly, the endeavor is sooo massive, I wouldn't bet on it ever happening - and mostly because all the content is there already, just not by any single person or group.

 

Finally, the good news is that a new A-10C training campaign based in NTTR will be coming up, which connects with other campaigns that will probably be more focused on combat and tactics after the training part is over.

 

Well, we DO intend to have a campaign covering all of the important stuff plus adding lots of additional info we think might be useful (tips / tricks / some background of the A-10C and lots of other stuff). This will be a huge endeavour, but I am pretty confident it is doable and will be fun to play when ready (though will take time to properly build / implement).

 

But my other suggestion is for more training focused missions. All the theory, example videos, manuals etc are very much needed but hands on practice in a controlled focused mission will go a long way to building the skill necessary to fly this thing. This is something I have not been able to find. If NTTR is on the way, GREAT.. this will definitely help and I'm looking forward to it.

 

The idea we have is as follows. Focus on one important system in two missions. In first one you will get all the important instructions and will be required to follow them. Let's take TGP as an example. You will be told how to set up most of the things, what are the meanings of symbols, how to use laser codes, switch from MGRS to lat/long, define direction in which you are looking, make what you see sharper / adjust it to terrain and lots of other things. Then you will be told to look for some targets at specific coordinates or just general area and then confirm what you are looking at using F-10 menu.

 

In the following mission you will get a series of tasks where you will be required to use the knowledge from the previous sortie, as the campaign progresses sometimes also combined with other systems use. Once all the training missions are done there will be 2-3 very complex ones simulating real combat where you will have complete freedom of putting what you have learned to use.

 

Finally this will be training. You will use weapons in a training mode, you will mostly be flying with training versions of munitions, as you normally would. That will change later on of course, but we would like to keep the whole thing as as realistic possible.

 

One last note - Doughboy, with whom we already work on this project, has real - life experience from Nevada where he served, he also was deployed working with Hogs in Afghanistan.

 

Hope you guys will enjoy it!

[Lt_Berkut]

totally agree, there are MANY very good youtube out there, but BUNYAP's are my 'go to' when i'm learning something new.

[rickberry49]

You guys are taking on an ENORMOUS TASK, I do know what quality software development takes...

 

My point is this... I see tremendous work by some very experienced guys, but when planning to show a new video, or produce a manual please consider (sometimes) the newbee and add perhaps create a quick easy to practice HANDS ON mission that supplements the great stuff you create. Or, possible use and identify one of the existing easy missions to demonstrate your point. The we can easily load the quick start mission for example and follow along exactly the same.

 

For DRAGON and your team... A MILLION ATTABOYS AND A GOOD JOB... Can't wait to see it, if this neewbee can be of any help with beta testing or ?? please send me a PM and I'll try to help.

[baltic_dragon]

The idea is to have a part (or even a separate mission!) that would let player try the news skills. Also, I think that this campaign will not be points driven and would rather just give an F-10 option for players to replay the mission if they want rather than forcing them to move on. Besides you can always launch each of the missions as a separate one.

[rickberry49]

The quick restart is a GREAT idea, depending on your system it can be painfully slow waiting just to REFLY... I use GET A NEW PLANE option if and most often when I crash or get shot down. Just get a new ride and pick up where I left off... This is NOT the PUREST approach I know but... I'm trying to learn to fly not growing old waiting for the mission to reload.