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Super slow .50 caliber rounds


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  • The correct Muzzle Velocity for the M2 AP should be 2,840 FPS, 865 MPS.
  • The reduction in accuracy and velocity due to barrel heating should be reduced to reflect the qualities described in weapons manuals. Possibly replaced with either a cook off event or a jam. 

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With regards to the correct muzzle velocity for these rounds. The manual for the AN-M2 and AN-M3 both give the same muzzle velocity for the various rounds. From the 1947 version of the AN-M2 manual,  TM9-225  1947.

http://www.nj7p.org/Manuals/PDFs/Military/TM 9-225 28-Jan-47 Google.pdf

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  The AN-M3’s ammo table and muzzle velocity from the 1955 version of the AN-M3 manual, TM 9-2190

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Both manuals also refer to the same document, which provides the ballistic profile of the ammunition. Ballistic Data Performance of Ammunition TM-9-1907

https://ia800909.us.archive.org/22/items/TM91907BalisticDataPreformaceOfAmmunition/TM%209-1907%20Balistic%20Data%20Preformace%20of%20Ammunition.pdf

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A cleaner version of this chart is available in 

https://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p4013coll8/id/2374

TM 9-1907 also gives the muzzle velocity as 2,835 FPS.  So this appears to be the correct muzzle velocity for M2 AP round.   

However, in some of the literature, the muzzle velocity is quoted as 2700 fps. This lower velocity 2700 fps comes from 1940 version of the AN-M2 manual -TM 9-225 https://ia601208.us.archive.org/21/items/TM9-225/TM9-225.pdf

It gives the velocity of the M1 AP Round as 2700 fps at 78 feet. 

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Then in 1942, the revised TM 9-225 manual states muzzle velocity for the M2 AP round is 2900 fps. 

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https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc29988/m1/50/

It appears the correct muzzle velocity for the M2 AP rounds is 2840 FPS, As the most current sources list it.


 

On burst length.

The manuals for both guns, indicate barrel heat affects 4 aspects of the guns performance, velocity, accuracy, stoppage, and cook off.  

The 150 round limit cited before, a 11 second burst,  is the stoppage limit (the gun locks up) of the AN-M2, due to overheating.  

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There is also a burst limit due to the possibility of a ammunition cook off. That is, the rounds heating up to point where the powder charge ignites and causes inadvertent firing. 

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For the AN/M3 the 200 rounds burst limit is due to the possibility of a cook off, not a reduction in accuracy or velocity. XlTOWXRAY3OIzh0hM0KIwOR3_TBsZoRtLk6UlLhj

The reduction in accuracy or velocity due to barrel heat occurs at different temperatures. The accuracy reduction is referred to as Key-holing in the manual. The AN/M2 manual notes, the circumstance in which the accuracy is degraded separately from the conditions that result in a reduction of the bullet’s velocity. The conditions depend on the barrel type and the number of rounds fired.. 

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The 50 Cal AN/M3 has a plated and lined barrel and the ammo is more likely to cook off, before the velocity and  accuracy are reduced. As the cook off limit is 200 rounds and the accuracy degradation occurs at 300 rounds. 

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The maximum burst length before there is a reduction accuracy, is 300 rounds. This should happen without a reduction in velocity. 

 

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The AN/M3 manual also notes that the operating parameters described are for temperate conditions at low altitude. So perhaps the increase in barrel temp can be reduced to reflect operation at high altitude. VstKqUD1C5BtwIcBwS4vuDbY82y5F8_Byb1qV9Yp


Edited by Curly
clairty
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  • BIGNEWY changed the title to Super slow .50 caliber rounds
  • BIGNEWY locked this topic

  So in 2016 this topic was posted in the bugs and problems section. It was hashed over, thought out, supposedly reported, and over 4 years later is still being complained about. And not addressed according to everything I see. No fix in sight. 4 years folks. 4 years.....

 This is the only reason that I never really fly the F86 ( a great plane by the way). It's nearly useless in A/G or A/A combat. 4 years.......

 Now, when someone new discovers this problem, they tell them it's reported and close the thread. Really ED????? Come on....I guess I expect too much from you guys..........

 This is why I went 2 years without buying anything. And maybe will go back to that stance. Such a disappointment that my money is being tossed away on things that will never be finished to the point of the satisfaction of those who purchased them. 

 Temp ban me, suspend me, do whatever you want. This is a very legitimate problem. Making those who are unhappy and are asking ED politely (and then maybe not so politely after years of asking) to fix the problem feel out of line for expecting to get what they paid is not acceptable.  Many of the issues that have plagued some of these modules for years end up in this old hidden dust bin. I kind of need to start seeing something more than forum promises. I think that all of us deserve that much from ED. It's our money you are getting. 

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The length of time and absolute hoops the community has had to jump through to get a simple LUA change done has been absolutely ridiculous. Honestly, in a just world, ED would have given Curly a bonus of some kind for doing their job for them. 

 

That's assuming ED has the gumption to put in changes, an LUA change at that, instead of just ignoring it for some unspecified reason? 

This entire episode has been utterly ridiculous. It has been utterly unacceptable. Mosquito is not getting a purchase from me and the Apache is looking even more tentative as something I want to fork over cash for. 9L catches a lot of bovine by-product, but to his credit, he looks to have done right by us in this case. It might be a good idea, call me crazy, to listen to community reps such as himself as the developer. You know, guys you've appointed to moderate over these forums?

 

You can do better, ED.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL
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45 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

The length of time and absolute hoops the community has had to jump through to get a simple LUA change done has been absolutely ridiculous. Honestly, in a just world, ED would have given Curly a bonus of some kind for doing their job for them. 

 

That's assuming ED has the gumption to put in changes, an LUA change at that, instead of just ignoring it for some unspecified reason? 

This entire episode has been utterly ridiculous. It has been utterly unacceptable. Mosquito is not getting a purchase from me and the Apache is looking even more tentative as something I want to fork over cash for. 9L catches a lot of bovine by-product, but to his credit, he's looks to have done right by us in this case. It might be a good idea, call me crazy, to listen to community reps such as himself as the developer. You know, guys you've appointed to moderate over these forums?

 

You can do better, ED.

Agreed and the amount of documents that had to be posted even just for this to once again get looked at... This fix should take only a few minutes to make and test and maybe another 10 or so to read through the documents posted.

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Yep it is a shame - but welcome to DCS really. This is how it has been , as you say, for years - with no sign of ever changing. That's why for every module I own I have a selection of mods in OvGME fixing the basic things ED can't be bothered fixing - mostly really basic LUA 1-line changes like the F-86 gun fix you mention. Is also why I won't be spending another cent on DCS for the foreseeable future either as I am tired of 'half-finished for years' modules.

Which is a shame as I live on NZ and used to work at Ardmore airfield and been in the hangar where they restore the Mosquito, seen them fly many times and was keen to purchase, but guess I am just not seeing the point anymore of spending my limited sim time flying half-finished neglected modules.

Also sick and tired of the DCS sniper-AI taking down a Hind (and other choppers) with a single 'golden BB' small arms fire. I swear the guy that programs the DCS AI must be a multiple gold medal winner in 'Blindfolded Skeet Shooting' to think you can plink a couple of snapshots of 7.62mm at a passing low-level helicopter doing 250kph and magically score a direct hit on the control system immediately rendering the machine uncontrollable (Looking at you UN Campaign remade for Hind Mission 2 I think it is)...... now I just select invulnerable in the options and enjoy the mission instead, and use 'Red Flag' techniques to know if I stuffed up and 'actually' died - or DCS magic AI at work again.

Bit of a rant I know, but meh.

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It is quite a bit annoying that the gunsight hasn't been at the level of accuracy it should be at despite ED having been provided the cause and solution to the problem some time ago. But it is far from a show-stopper does not keep me from enjoying the F-86. I find the fact that the in-cockpit sound randomly cuts out and can only fixed by spawning in another F-86 to be far more annoying, yet this problem has been around quite some time as well and ED says it can't reproduce it, so they aren't going to fix it.


Edited by streakeagle
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  And it extends into so many areas that I get insanely frustrated with DCS and quit for months at a time. It just sucks. I recently came back to DCS some months ago after a year or so. I even purchased 2 more modules and maps. It all seems ok on the surface and it's lots of fun to just fly around, maybe shoot some stuff up (Kudos on that ED), but when you want to go in depth and use the ME or learn some advanced systems stuff, you have to hope and pray that they fixed things enough for you to do it. I went into the ME and tried to set up simple missions and unless I alter LUA after LUA, the vehicles, planes, boats, troops, tasks, wing men, and pilots act like mindless, slobbering zombies, doing whatever they like....Certainly not what I programmed them to to in the ME. In short....Same old clunky, nearly impossible to use as ED intended stuff. ME should not have to depend on user work arounds for 50% of it's functions to work as they are suppose to. I have never gone into the Fallout LUA, or the COD LUA files to fix problems. Never had to.  I would go into the ME forum section and ask about all of this but I already know what I have to do because this problem has plaged the sim for years and years. And It's not my job to rework what ED should have already had worked out. 

 I have been here since 2000 or so.......Still stuff broken from waaaay back then. 

 Please ED.........Don't punish your base for being unhappy when they have every right to be. Just please fix some of these things. 

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Can’t recall exactly how long ago this issue was marked as reported, locked and a comment added to the effect that there’s no timeline for a fix, but it’s probably due for that again.

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An issue that a simple lua edit could fix. It was reported soon after the module was released five years or so ago. THere was a very long running bug report thread going but recently all bug report threads are getting locked. So, this op started Part 2 here. 

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The lua fix isn't even possible on the user end anymore is it, given that they have now locked all weapons-related luas? Whatever happened to product maintenance and transparency? 

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9 hours ago, Miles Vorkosigan said:

An issue that a simple lua edit could fix. It was reported soon after the module was released five years or so ago. THere was a very long running bug report thread going but recently all bug report threads are getting locked. So, this op started Part 2 here. 

so the 50 cal fly too slowly and that was found out here with a relatively fast aircraft?

doesn't that also apply to the P51 or the P47?

and who says that the 20,13 or 30mm weapons of the german and british are not affected?

only there it is not so noticeable because the aircraft are slower.

 

I have always had a strange feeling about the speed of the weapons in the ww2 bird.

let's see if this can be confirmed

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1 hour ago, Hobel said:

so the 50 cal fly too slowly and that was found out here with a relatively fast aircraft?

No, this is specifically about the Sabre, the muzzle velocity of the .50 cal was set for the wrong ammunition type and for the earlier version of the M2 machine gun that was used in the Mustang not the M3 used in the Sabre.

 

This results in the rounds having too much drop so you need to lead the target with the Radar ranging gun sight and the AI Sabre mostly missing their targets.

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The current in-game lua has them with an exit velocity of 830 m/s when research has shown it should be at least 870 m/s and more likely 890 m/s. More troubling than this is the inaccurately modeled ballistic characteristics of each round. This was pointed out by Curly in another thread, but basically he dug out books that indicate there should be waay less drop both before and after the transonic shockwave. 

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Yes, it may just be that the "barrel warp" equation is worse than the lack of velocity. Some luas model the barrel effect with a circular dispersal. It's much easier to adjust it that way. Like on the Spitfire for example (and the Browning .303). The barrel warp is exactly the same between the MiG and the Sabre and we've been told the Sabre was based on the MiG so that it is somehow less objectionable. But the effect is way out of whack with nature as can be seen in gun camera footage and sighting photos from gunnery ranges with almost laser-like tracer paths on long exposure photos. 

 

I busted the warp equations down my like 75%. But another tweak which has served me well offline, is to adjust the max g rating on the MiG by 0.5 to 0.3 increments to simulate average g technique in the pilots without g suits. That really effects how much lead they can pull and how hard they can turn, and this helps bring the muzzle velocity aspect back into a more real world appearance. Also adjust your seat about as high as it will go to see down over the nose and "rope a dope" with tracers, pipper be damned.

 

The module was made by a third party so I am sure getting things changed is a "boring" and "old hat" task for developers who have moved onto new and exciting things.

I have never really played online and don't play much at all lately. I bought the F-16 and Spit IX lately but didn't fly them much probably because my old HOTAS Cougar is really worn and spikey. 

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4 hours ago, Squiffy said:

Yes, it may just be that the "barrel warp" equation is worse than the lack of velocity. Some luas model the barrel effect with a circular dispersal. It's much easier to adjust it that way. Like on the Spitfire for example (and the Browning .303). The barrel warp is exactly the same between the MiG and the Sabre and we've been told the Sabre was based on the MiG so that it is somehow less objectionable. But the effect is way out of whack with nature as can be seen in gun camera footage and sighting photos from gunnery ranges with almost laser-like tracer paths on long exposure photos. 

 

The module was made by a third party so I am sure getting things changed is a "boring" and "old hat" task for developers who have moved onto new and exciting things.

It's both. The bullets have to much drag and the barrel heating penalties (accuracy and velocity drop) are to high.

 

However the MiG-15 also has issues with it's armament. The 23mm HEI shells don't fire. So the 23mm cannon only has half the ammo.  40 rounds not the 80 it's supposed to have. Also, the 23 mm AP rounds have their caliber set to 37 mm. Which I assume was a hack to get the 23 mm cannon to work. 

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Appreciate you are frustrated, you can see we have reported it, and we are bumping the report internally, that is all we can do currently. 

 

Thanks

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