DEFA 554 Stopping Power

[Aginor]

17 hits with high explosive ammo, even from smaller calibers (20mm) should - in most cases - bring that thing down, I am quite sure about that.

[jojo]

Hmmm.... I can't say if that is a good comparison. If you carry a single ghs-23 you have less problems with convergence and stuff while still having a higher rate of fire IIRC, that ensures more hits I guess.

Do you know (from tacview or so) how many actual hits that were?

 

On Mirage 2000 firing rate is 1800x2 = 3600 rpm !

Not a twin barrels but the 2 are close in the fuselage.

 

And the 30m should hit hard.

 

The Israelis replaced the 20mm gun of their A-4 with Defa 30mm for a good reason...

[Aginor]

I was talking about the cadence of one of the cannons because I don't know if they are shot in a way that allows combining their rate of fire (i.e alternating).

 

But yes, it should hit hard. I don't doubt that at all. I just think calling the gsh-23 weak and saying the DEFA 554 has to be _much_ better may not be accurate, depending on many factors such as the ones mentioned in these forums already.

[WinterH]

Although DEFA and it's round aren't as powerful as GSh-30-1, it is still pretty powerful alright, and the Mirage has two of those onboard.

 

A few days ago, I was playing guns instant action mission of Mirage, drilling multitudes of holes on MiG-29 and Su-27, any they flew on, only with almost all ammo would I shoot one down. I was seeing many explosions of shells, lots debris flying off my targets, they trail white and black smoke, but it just took sooo many 30mm hits before it finally went down. Actually it looked pretty much the same as Custard's left side video on original post.

 

Now seeing this thread, I have decided to fly a series of tests of sorts, and record them.

 

Target is an AI F-15C, and I recorded a guns only fight against it in MiG-21, Su-27, Mirage and F-15C itself. Remembering how it went a few days ago, I was expecting to see similar results when I use Mirage.

 

Well, MiG-21, short burst, many hits, saw the wing right off. Su-27, I was a bit sloppy but two short snap shots, target going down in flames, sans a wing. F-15C, again I was a bit sloppy but again two snapshots with same result. Mirage, well... a very short burst, and the Eagle went down in same fashion. Like Murphy says I guess, if you try to show something isn't working, and it will :D.

 

So yeah, there seems some inconsistency. I didn't fly Mirage for quite a while but, when I was flying it around it's release, I recall Cannon being "a bit less than expected, but still pretty decent". Both against ground targets, as well as AI and Human aerial targets, it did perform good most of the times I hit something with it. But my experience a few days ago were quite different from that, and yet today it seemed to take another turn when I was recording :). When I have more time I'll test some more this time against MiGs and see how it goes. May be it is indeed related to damage model of targets themselves. Mirage itself also has problems with damage model, I take multiple missile and gun hits and still keep flying in Mirage, feels like Königstiger of skies currently :). Ironically, I had experienced the same when I was recording F-86 vs MiG-15 AI, MiG died in like 2-3 hits to wing root while it sometimes takes much, much more and fly it's merry way.

 

For what it's worth, the video is here :

[jojo]

You're firing both guns.

 

The rounds are NATO standard 30 x 113mm.

 

It's difficult to find video. But if you want an idea look for Apache helicopters videos.

It uses the same type of rounds. Watch and imagine effect on aircraft...

 

GSH-30-1 has higher muzzle velocity. At equal range the kinematic energy will be higher.

 

Yet the 30 x 113 round should be more effective than 20mm.

[mattebubben]

You're firing both guns.

 

The rounds are NATO standard 30 x 113mm.

 

It's difficult to find video. But if you want an idea look for Apache helicopters videos.

It uses the same type of rounds. Watch and imagine effect on aircraft...

 

GSH-30-1 has higher muzzle velocity. At equal range the kinematic energy will be higher.

 

Yet the 30 x 113 round should be more effective than 20mm.

 

Well there are plenty of footage Guncam kills from aircraft armed with twin 30mm Defas.

 

the Mirage III for example.

 

Which has a large amount of gunkills (mostly in Israeli service)

I posted some videos a page or 2 back.

 

The DEFA is probably one of the Aircraft mounted cannons with the most air-air kills. (For a Cannon on a supersonic jet anyways)

 

And also on the Defa and GSh-23.

(Not directed to you jojo but just in general)

 

The Defa actually has a higher Muzzle velocity then the GSh-23 wich very much helps it in air-air effectiveness.

 

It actually has 100m/s higher muzzle velocity then the 23mm rounds of the GSh-23.

 

And the DEFA (and it cousing the Aden) are counted to have been very effective 30mm cannons allround.

 

They might not have had the penetration power for air-ground duties as later more modern Aircraft mounted cannons but it was a very effective air-air weapon.

Edited April 7, 2016 by mattebubben

[Custard]

Although DEFA and it's round aren't as powerful as GSh-30-1, it is still pretty powerful alright, and the Mirage has two of those onboard.

Watching your video, a lot of the shots including the mirage one are point blank bursts where you get so many shots on target in one place the target can't help but be damaged.

 

Those are the only kills I've ever been able to get in the mirage, 'fly up his ass and fire 50 rounds into his engine' sort of kills that use the fixed bore cross as much as the gunsnake.

 

Try some medium range tracking shots using the pipper and I think you'll soon see the low damage of the DEFA. A 30mm like that should total an aircraft from just a handful of hits punching football sized holes in the target.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Custard

[jojo]

Mirage III Vs MiG 21.

- MiG 21 is small and couldn't sustain any hit without catastrophic failure.

- close shot because the sighting system of the time doesn't allow medium range shot.

 

There is no doubt the DEFA system is effective in AA, especially with the DEFA 554 which has the higher firing rate of the family. And the point of firing rate is to maximize hit on target, especially explosive weight, in the shortest time.

 

Finally we can't see any effect on the MiG 21 appart from the fireball which mask the target.

 

So there could be 2 points of action:

- 30mm ammo effectiveness (ED part in my view)

- planes damage model (ED, Leatherneck... plane's studio)

Edited April 7, 2016 by jojo

[Aginor]

That would be my conclusions as well.

[jojo]

Interesting article about AA gun:

 

http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiA--iHlP_LAhVJrxoKHR6pCxg4ChAWCBswAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Faimt.unob.cz%2Farticles%2F07_02%2F07_02%2520(3).pdf&usg=AFQjCNG0jS4WpyEViwfQf1H-EebZTBIr5Q&bvm=bv.119028448,d.d2s

Edited April 9, 2016 by jojo

[PiedDroit]

Interesting article about AA gun:

 

http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiA--iHlP_LAhVJrxoKHR6pCxg4ChAWCBswAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Faimt.unob.cz%2Farticles%2F07_02%2F07_02%2520(3).pdf&usg=AFQjCNG0jS4WpyEViwfQf1H-EebZTBIr5Q&bvm=bv.119028448,d.d2s

Very interesting!

Despite lower projectile mass and similar muzzle velocity, DEFA-554 is put on par with Gsh-30-1 (pages 7-8 ), this probably due to more explosive portion in DEFA's round as well as higher rate of fire, according to the table page 10.

GS-23L is listed too (rated ~2/3 of DEFA).

Edited April 8, 2016 by PiedDroit

[karl_T]

The DEFA is indeed a joke in it's current state. Hopefully it's not fully done yet.

 

Hopefully.

I'm pretty sure it's just a 'beta symptom.'

[Kelevra9987]

So in a Video of mine I had a dogfight against two Mig-29Ss. Guns only. And I there it went really good. But that was one of the early builds of the M2000C so maybe something has changed here.

 

You can watch the Video here:

 

[Zergburger]

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/30mm%20cannon.htm

 

if you look at the table of data, the 30x165mm in the russian cannons has roughly double the muzzle energy of the 30x113mm nato.

 

Not saying this excuses the poor performance of the DEFA in-game, just thought i'd point that out and add info to the discussion

[ShuRugal]

I don't agree that a difference in the amount of propellant makes a huge difference to the stopping power of these A2A cannon rounds,

 

The thing is, it's not just a difference in propellant. The shell itself is shorter, and therefore contains less explosive filler. Quick bit of googling reveals that the 30x113mm round used in the DEFA-554 fires a 237-gram projectile, while the 30x165mm round used by the GSh 30mm guns fires a projectile weighing in at 384-403 grams. I would expect a pretty damn devastating difference in performance/effect on target between those two rounds.

[Rlaxoxo]

The thing is, it's not just a difference in propellant. The shell itself is shorter, and therefore contains less explosive filler. Quick bit of googling reveals that the 30x113mm round used in the DEFA-554 fires a 237-gram projectile, while the 30x165mm round used by the GSh 30mm guns fires a projectile weighing in at 384-403 grams. I would expect a pretty damn devastating difference in performance/effect on target between those two rounds.

 

The Bf-109 cannon is 3 times worse then 1 of the Mirage cannons and it deals more damage then a DEFA-554 cannon

 

As stated in this comment here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2769268&postcount=14

[ShuRugal]

Well, that makes sense. I cannot find specs for 30×90RB, but in the following image, you can clearly see that the projectile is significantly longer than the one fired by 30×113.

[Rlaxoxo]

Well, that makes sense. I cannot find specs for 30×90RB, but in the following image, you can clearly see that the projectile is significantly longer than the one fired by 30×113.]

 

Issue with this topic has pretty much been nailed on my other topic

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=166188