resolved Aileron behavior and effectiveness

[NineLine]

Thanks for the vid, I am hoping to sit in the Sabre tonight, this gives me a good idea what to look at.

[NineLine]

ok, after a few flights and some chats with cofcorpse, I reported the aileron response as it seems that the moment of them freezing is either on or off, instead, at higher speeds, they should become sluggish and freeze if speeds continue to grow.

 

Thanks for all the help guys!

[Ravenus]

ok, after a few flights and some chats with cofcorpse, I reported the aileron response as it seems that the moment of them freezing is either on or off, instead, at higher speeds, they should become sluggish and freeze if speeds continue to grow.

 

Thanks for all the help guys!

 

Has there been any movement on trying to fix this issue? The aileron sluggishness is still binary at this point.

[BIGNEWY]

Ravenus said:

Has there been any movement on trying to fix this issue? The aileron sluggishness is still binary at this point.

 

This is an old report, I have asked for the team to review

 

thanks

[Reflected]

I did some further testing, the issue still persists. At .95 Mach the ailerons lock up and that’s it from there on. The Sabre was known to remain controllable over Mach 1, a great advantage over the MIG.

[Reflected]

I've done some more testing and research:

 

Apparently, the Sabre's ailerons got real stiff above .95 Mach - just like in game. So at the extremities of the lateral stick movement a hydraulic booster motor kicked in. It was not smooth at all, and downright dangerous at times, e.g. flying formation at high speed. Kind of like setting a huge dead zone to your roll axis. Just like in game.

 

The problem is, that it works when I move the stick right, but not when I move the stick to the left. This is why ailerons get stuck deflected at times. Check this track. When I move the stick right, it works as it should in real life. But when I move the stick left, very often nothing happens at all.

 

sabreailerons.trk

[Ravenus]

This really needs to get fixed. This severely effects one´s ability to pilot the aircraft in a combat environment effectively and i can´t fathom why this hasn´t been a priority on this jet. I have a few guys that have stopped flying the sabre because of it and we want to put in a few MP events with the aircraft of the era.

[==Wiggy==]

I flew the Sabre last night in PvP group session and noted that .94 is where the stiffness starts and .95 they are basically locked up, with potential to move in one direction only as reported by Reflected.  So I guess what I'm saying is, confirmed, it's still a thing.

Edited December 9, 2020 by 000rick000

[Nealius]

I experienced lockup when rolling in one direction, and one direction only. The opposite direction under the exact same conditions is fine. This is a game-breaking bug that needs to be squashed. I have not been able to play the Hunters over the Yalu campaign because of it.

[grant977]

I thought this was correct behavior due to the shockwave effect as you go trans sonic. 

[Reflected]

9 hours ago, grant977 said:

I thought this was correct behavior due to the shockwave effect as you go trans sonic. 

 

Please read my post:

On 11/17/2020 at 2:55 PM, Reflected said:

I've done some more testing and research:

 

Apparently, the Sabre's ailerons got real stiff above .95 Mach - just like in game. So at the extremities of the lateral stick movement a hydraulic booster motor kicked in. It was not smooth at all, and downright dangerous at times, e.g. flying formation at high speed. Kind of like setting a huge dead zone to your roll axis. Just like in game.

 

The problem is, that it works when I move the stick right, but not when I move the stick to the left. This is why ailerons get stuck deflected at times. Check this track. When I move the stick right, it works as it should in real life. But when I move the stick left, very often nothing happens at all.

 

sabreailerons.trk 705.01 kB · 9 downloads

 

[Ravenus]

Hello? ED devs? Acknowledgement that this is a bug and it is going to be fixed?

[Squiffy]

Here's a little "Launch and Leave" comment. The Sabre was nerfed for subconscious reasons. The 10:1 kill ratio was disturbing for some coders and had to be dealt with in any way possible. Haha, just kidding. Happy New Year everybody!

[grant977]

It seems to be fixed now. At least not as egregious.

[tohkai]

I have noticed this problem as well and it honestly makes it impossible to duel MIG15s on the Korea war server I play on. It feels straight up like I have multiple seconds of lag, I completely fail to fall on someone's 6 often, on extremely easy opportunities.

[NorthAmericanAviator]

Hi! I fly the Sabre all the time and it is my most flown bird. We would appreciate if you could start working on a fix as soon as possible. I'm surprised that the more and more i fly the Sabre, the more and more i despise this bug. I am able to handle it, but i worry for new Sabre pilots encountering this issue.

[VF-17-14.FAD_Teddy]

The amount of mountains i have crashed into because of this bug..... It completely erases the dive advantage over the Mig-15

[Ravenus]

On 9/13/2020 at 11:01 PM, BIGNEWY said:

 

This is an old report, I have asked for the team to review

 

thanks

I saw the the thread on the Mig 15 about cockpit shadows. How goes this problem?

[-0303-]

On 11/17/2020 at 2:55 PM, Reflected said:

So at the extremities of the lateral stick movement a hydraulic booster motor kicked in.

This is wrong. Ailerons are always fully hydraulically controlled. Also, because of this, any notion of the stick "getting heavy", to the extent suggested (if suggested) in this thread is completely wrong.

Fact is, as the manual explicitly says (in multiple places), "aerodynamic loads of any kind cannot reach the pilot through the stick". It says further "an artificial-feel system is built into the aileron and horizontal tail control systems to provide normal stick feel".

 Amusingly perhaps, the F-86F stick  functions just like your desktop TM WarThog (if spring center was adjustable as "trim"). The pilot moves the stick and hydraulic sensors out in the wings adjusts ailerons accordingly (detailed pictures of the mechanism are in the maintenance manual). Any and all stick forces are adjusted on the ground.

 

Find all F-86F documents uploaded here by drPhibes.

 

F-86F Flt Manual + perf data page 1-31 (pdf 41)

 

 

Maintenance procedure to adjust stick movements to within tolerances, make sure left and right are symmetrical. Point 18 suggests 30 pound  at "center of the stick grip". These pics illustrates how the mechanics works.

 

Maintenance page 76 Figure 2-16 Adjusting Aileron Control System and Aileron Feel and Trim System (Sheet 1 of 2) page 76 (pdf 82)

Maintenance page 77 Figure 2-16 Adjusting Aileron Control System and Aileron Feel and Trim System (Sheet 2 of 2) page 76 (pdf 83)

 

Yes, I do find F-86F behavior "weird" above 0.93, without having tried to analyze it. If historical sources says controllable above Mach 1, I'm all for that. But take note of how the stick functions.

Edited February 3, 2021 by -0303-

[Ravenus]

24 minutes ago, -0303- said:

This is wrong. Ailerons are always fully hydraulically controlled. Also, because of this, any notion of the stick "getting heavy", to the extent suggested (if suggested) in this thread is completely wrong.

Fact is, as the manual explicitly says (in multiple places), "aerodynamic loads of any kind cannot reach the pilot through the stick". It says further "an artificial-feel system is built into the aileron and horizontal tail control systems to provide normal stick feel".

 Amusingly perhaps, the F-86F stick  functions just like your desktop TM WarThog (if spring center was adjustable as "trim"). The pilot moves the stick and hydraulic sensors out in the wings adjusts ailerons accordingly (detailed pictures of the mechanism are in the maintenance manual). Any and all stick forces are adjusted on the ground.

 

Find all F-86F documents uploaded here by drPhibes.

 

F-86F Flt Manual + perf data page 1-31 (pdf 41)

 

 

Maintenance procedure to adjust stick movements to within tolerances, make sure left and right are symmetrical. Point 18 suggests 30 pound  at "center of the stick grip". These pics illustrates how the mechanics works.

 

Maintenance page 76 Figure 2-16 Adjusting Aileron Control System and Aileron Feel and Trim System (Sheet 1 of 2) page 76 (pdf 82)

Maintenance page 77 Figure 2-16 Adjusting Aileron Control System and Aileron Feel and Trim System (Sheet 2 of 2) page 76 (pdf 83)

 

Yes, I do find F-86F behavior "weird" above 0.93, without having tried to analyze it. If historical sources says controllable above Mach 1, I'm all for that. But take note of how the stick functions.

 

The main topic in this thread is the aileron lock up post 0.9-0.95 mach. I invite you to perform the test that reflected has kindly created and posted in his track file. Once you perform the test, tell us that it is modeled correctly.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Ravenus

[grant977]

It’s honestly not that big of an issue provided you stay below .87 to.85 Mach you can still turn inside the F16.... it’s fun to hear your buddies moan when those 50s hit.

[GumidekCZ]

Still a BUG now after latest patch. Aileron when deflected fully to right is responding a little or not at all with sharp glitchy behaviour.

It happens at speed 0.8 Mach and higher .... AND especialy when you pull stick only just a little - leads to aileron Locked.

Hopefully will be fixed soon.

Edited February 5, 2021 by GumidekCZ

[Ravenus]

1 hour ago, grant977 said:

It’s honestly not that big of an issue provided you stay below .87 to.85 Mach you can still turn inside the F16.... it’s fun to hear your buddies moan when those 50s hit.

whaa, F16? Lets talk about fighting the contemporary Mig 15. If the mig 15 can out roll you at mach .88, then something is wrong, don´t you think? It is a big deal

[Nealius]

On 2/5/2021 at 11:05 PM, grant977 said:

It’s honestly not that big of an issue provided you stay below .87 to.85 Mach you can still turn inside the F16.... it’s fun to hear your buddies moan when those 50s hit.

 

It's a huge issue at altitude in the merge when you need all the smash you can get.

[Squiffy]

Yes, while great info, the business about feel and hydraulics is irrelevant. The problem is in the departure from history in the known, superior roll rate and high speed performance of the Sabre v, MiG. It's not an earth shattering problem. It's off by enough that many users have noticed it. If a few more MiG's get splashed as a result of a fix, too bad.