How do I properly fly the P-51D?

[Legioneod]

I agree with you that the 109 is definitely better down low, another thing that is good about German aircraft is that you don't have to worry about engine management as much, it's a very simple machine to learn.

I also agree that the dmg model needs a lot of work, I'm not sure but I read that coolant, oil and other types of dmg isn't implemented in-game? if thats the case I can understand why the 51s guns are less effective at the moment.

 

Overall I enjoy flying the mustang much more than the German aircraft, the mustang has better handling imo and is an easy ride once you get used to the engine management.

 

One thing I can't stress enough is to use flaps when you turn, when I'm doing a very tight turn I usually go 20% flaps, I can out-turn the Dora and on a few occasions I've turned with the 109 and stuck on his tail. Flaps help alot.

[Coyote Duster]

Thanks fellas, the more the merrier!

[MegOhm_SD]

:doh:

I am sorry for my post about the P51 flight model. I was unaware of the lack of appreciation for satire and a brief criticism used to stimulate some critical thinking. And to avoid a long winded post hashing over details that may have been gone over repeatedly.

 

I was just wanting to know that I was not alone in my opinion as I haven't seen any other comments other than "P51 not cutting it". But I think I understand why, I forget we all from different places and many do not see the benefits of the First Amendment where I live.

 

Any how, yes I have flown a P-51 and have flown for many years. I also have been captain of a few boats. And the handling reminds me of handling a boat more so than a plane. It is slow, it maintains energy like a barge going upstream.

 

It turns like a freight train, no matter what adjustments are used. As long as you're not involved in air combat its great. It feels like you are dog fighting in a B-24, you cant out turn them, you cant dive and run, don't try to climb.

 

So the rules to dog fight are don't turn, extend or climb, as I tried many hours trying those options and all the other ACMs known to man since ww1.

 

Unless someone knows some things I haven't used that work, I would like to know what they are.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read another long posting.

 

Fly:helpsmilie:

 

:doh: Would like to hear more of your flight time in the Mustang...do share your wealth of experience.

We could learn so much from such an experienced 51 pilot.

Edited April 18, 2016 by MegOhm_SD

[BIGNEWY]

First Amendment? read the forum rules would be a better option.

 

 

If you have data on the P-51 that would assist the ED team please provide them.

[KingPoiuy]

How are you able to stay behind a 109? I find it difficult to stay behind a 190 most of the time, especially on multiplayer server.

No matter how hard I turn I can never get behind them and I usually stall even at high speeds.

 

I guess I should record a video or two. I don't have any special tricks, really.

[otto]

First Amendment? read the forum rules would be a better option.

 

 

If you have data on the P-51 that would assist the ED team please provide them.

 

Forum rules matter only if they don't infringe international law.Look at Vernor v. Autodesk, Inc .

[NineLine]

Forum rules matter only if they don't infringe international law.Look at Vernor v. Autodesk, Inc .

 

Forum rules matter in this forum, if you want to part of this community and post in a mature manner and follow our simple rules, you wont have any issue. Forum rules are not up for discussion here though, so please stay on topic.

[NineLine]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111388

 

I am sorry for my post about the P51 flight model. I was unaware of the lack of appreciation for satire and a brief criticism used to stimulate some critical thinking. And to avoid a long winded post hashing over details that may have been gone over repeatedly.

 

I was just wanting to know that I was not alone in my opinion as I haven't seen any other comments other than "P51 not cutting it". But I think I understand why, I forget we all from different places and many do not see the benefits of the First Amendment where I live.

 

Any how, yes I have flown a P-51 and have flown for many years. I also have been captain of a few boats. And the handling reminds me of handling a boat more so than a plane. It is slow, it maintains energy like a barge going upstream.

 

It turns like a freight train, no matter what adjustments are used. As long as you're not involved in air combat its great. It feels like you are dog fighting in a B-24, you cant out turn them, you cant dive and run, don't try to climb.

 

So the rules to dog fight are don't turn, extend or climb, as I tried many hours trying those options and all the other ACMs known to man since ww1.

 

Unless someone knows some things I haven't used that work, I would like to know what they are.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read another long posting.

 

Fly:helpsmilie:

[Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson]

You've flown a Mustang ? So, what are you waiting for ? Help ED to enhance the P-51 again and make it better. Seriously. An experienced pilot is great for our community.

[PondLife]

I wouldn't take it too personally flygav......although a lot of people on these forums seem to. And yes you are correct in saying satire doesn't go down very well, I'll leave the reason for that for individuals to work out. Your original post didn't seem too outrageous to me, It's your opinion and you're definitely entitled to make it, especially if it's backed up by real world experience, in fact I would say anyone with any real world flying experience would be entitled to make comments on flight models.

[NineLine]

I wouldn't take it too personally flygav......although a lot of people on these forums seem to. And yes you are correct in saying satire doesn't go down very well, I'll leave the reason for that for individuals to work out. Your original post didn't seem too outrageous to me, It's your opinion and you're definitely entitled to make it, especially if it's backed up by real world experience, in fact I would say anyone with any real world flying experience would be entitled to make comments on flight models.

 

 

Show me anything in either of those posts that is helpful or constructive that the developers could use to make any sort of change to the P-51 FM. TFC has their own P-51, and P-51 pilots on staff. I think that is pretty covered already.

[otto]

Forum rules matter in this forum, if you want to part of this community and post in a mature manner and follow our simple rules, you wont have any issue. Forum rules are not up for discussion here though, so please stay on topic.

 

Invoking forum rules are above the first amendment in the US constitution for a US citizen is really mature ;).

Means more to me to tell the truth than be "mature" .

[NineLine]

Invoking forum rules are above the first amendment in the US constitution for a US citizen is really mature ;).

Means more to me to tell the truth than be "mature" .

 

If you dont like how the rules are enforced here, you are more than welcome to not post here, but I will ask you one more time, this is not on topic. Read the rules, this is the last warning.

[Schmidtfire]

I think you're looking at the wrong things here... The FM, fuel type or MP pressure is not the big issue fighting against BF109 or FW190. Great visibility from cockpit is one of the strongpoints of the Mustang. As a high-altitude fighter, being able to BnZ unsuspecting fighters way below, is crucial. The ability to go smokin' fast and still have a lot of control over the P-51D. But the current visibility issues within DCS negate this advantage. What's the point of going fast if you can't see your enemy properly? You take away that ability and we're always stuck with turning fights down low, and that is not a good spot for the P-51.

[otto]

I think you're looking at the wrong things here... The FM, fuel type or MP pressure is not the big issue fighting against BF109 or FW190. Great visibility from cockpit is one of the strongpoints of the Mustang. As a high-altitude fighter, being able to BnZ unsuspecting fighters way below, is crucial. The ability to go smokin' fast and still have a lot of control over the P-51D. But the current visibility issues within DCS negate this advantage. What's the point of going fast if you can't see your enemy properly? You take away that ability and we're always stuck with turning fights down low, and that is not a good spot for the P-51.

 

 

The p51 needs most patience to bee good with.

There are a lot of p51's that fly at just a few hundred feet of altitude.How can you spot a plane below you if you fly like that ?

Or even worse in formations so close that 99% of their attention is directed towards keeping that formation so i end up shooting both down(There's the aerobatic server for that).Or even worse than that some fly one in front of the other.

Lately the whole fun part for me was to educate my patience and trying to spot targets as far as i can .

People fly at higher altitude for 10-15 minutes and than go low just because they are bored and in a desperate need of some action when they should keep their altitude advantage at all cost. For some getting kills is the only motivation.

My motivation is to fly with professionalism because that is a reword in itself.

Edited April 18, 2016 by otto

[Xxx]

I am not sure what to tell you on all this, ED did exhaustive research, had actual pilots test it out and retest it, and verified by other pilots... so I am supposed to go to them, and report that some guy on the forums knowns a guy that knows a guy and says the P-51 is wrong... I'm sorry. Where is your data, where are your tests...

 

A good pilot (real or sim flier) cant just jump into DCS, never flown DCS before, not familiar with your controls (or whomevers controls) and get the same experience the same things they do in the real thing, you are sitting in a chair from staples, with plastic controllers with no sense of motion... so not knowing the time spent in DCS by these other pilots, I find it hard to take anything from your post other than the AI still need some love when it comes to WWII combat.

 

Having read this thread, as always, it demonstrates that we are all passionate about our DCS sims.:)

 

I quote the above as I am in agreement about the fact we all sit in a chair and look at a screen with plastic (or metal) joystick controls. Some are lucky enough to have sim pits, but the result is the same. We have only a small fraction of the true visibility and absolutely no physical feel, peripheral vision or ability to feel we are actually flying.

 

So, whilst its important to have simulations that fly to the correct numbers, its also important to cater for the simmer, as described above. We (I) require enhancements that can overcome the minimalized flight environment in which we (I) fly.

 

I have just returned to DCS after a period away. My original favourites are as good/better than before (A10C and Ka50):). Hours of fun ahead, campaigns, missions, self created missions, lovely!

 

I just took my P51 up for a test flight/fight from Nellis. My thoughts are that the following is missing from my experience.

 

1. The flight model of the P51 may have been adjudged "accurate" from a real P51 pilots point of view, looking at a small screen and flying with a couple of plastic joysticks. Also I am sure ED looked very seriously at the numbers. But for me (Mr Average Flight Simmer) the P51 is not pleasurable to fly and fight in. I don't get the same experience in the A10C or the Black Shark. Challenging as those aircraft are, I go back to them each time with relish ;) Obviously each to his own. But I am looking forward to future releases from ED with a Europe WW2 map and the promise of dog fights over the Channel? (anyone remember Combat Pilot, or Microprose?)

 

2. The Mustangs adversary (Me109K and Dora) in the AI model are impossible for me to fight! So as has been discussed, an AI model that doesn't possess super human skills is required.

 

3. The enemy aircraft model needs to have limitations. i.e., bits fall off and radiators leak when hit by a fifty cal round. (Never managed that yet!) As has been said, AI that are subject to our (simulated) aircrafts physical limitations, not to mention the simulated G lock.

 

4. We can never have the peripheral vision the real guys had, (even with the O.R.) but we do have an excellent padlock view. Even if, in my case, its always pointing astern!:cry:

 

I am not saying that the WW2 simulated aircraft should be dumbed down, far from it, but just moderated to fit a guy sat in a chair from Staples with a couple of plastic joy sticks and sat in front of a little screen.:joystick: Without Radar, Lasers, and modern combat optics, an approach is needed that provides a satisfying experience. I don't fancy going back in to the Mustang, save for a pleasure flight around The Strip. But we can do that in FSX!:music_whistling:

 

Anyway just my two penneth.

 

Best Regards

 

David.

 

Oh BTW I managed a climb to 28500' over Nellis, before I stalled and spun out!:doh:

Edited April 19, 2016 by Accipiter
typo

[msalama]

but just moderated to fit a guy sat in a chair

 

No, just... NO.

 

There have been enough combat, ahem, "sims" already where everything was "moderated" so as to prevent folks from throwing their toys out of the pram. Not that it prevented them from _doing_ so though, because according to them the enemy planes, Blue and Red both, were _still_ overmodelled regardless of the amount of "moderation" applied... :doh:

 

No more of that, please. Enough of that garbage out there already.

[HiJack]

No, just... NO.

 

There have been enough combat, ahem, "sims" already where everything was "moderated" so as to prevent folks from throwing their toys out of the pram. Not that it prevented them from _doing_ so though, because according to them the enemy planes, Blue and Red both, were _still_ overmodelled regardless of the amount of "moderation" applied... :doh:

 

No more of that, please. Enough of that garbage out there already.

+1 Agree! Keep all aircraft's true to the model they suppose to simulate! And I believe that is ED's goal also :thumbup:

[otto]

Having read this thread, as always, it demonstrates that we are all passionate about our DCS sims.:)

 

 

2. The Mustangs adversary (Me109K and Dora) in the AI model are impossible for me to fight! So as has been discussed, an AI model that doesn't possess super human skills is required.

 

Oh BTW I managed a climb to 28500' over Nellis, before I stalled and spun out!:doh:

 

The d9 i can shoot down with ease. But you're right about the Ai 109k4.It is very difficult to shoot down in a head to head equal energy fight. I can do it but the way the Ai 109 keeps climbing in low energy situations is superhuman IMHO .Ai improvements are being made as far as i know.So might be fun in the future.

[MegOhm_SD]

I guess I an anomaly. I find the P51 a joy to fly and have success dogfighting 109s and 190s.

All the while maintaining control and using the aircraft with smooth well though out moves. You can't hamfist the P51 and expect it will not depart.

 

I find recent dogfights to be the most immersive and most epic of any sim out there.

 

It seems to me the AI behavior has been improved somewhat from what it was.

 

So in my mind it's the pilot that probably needs tweaking, not the FM.

 

For the record, my chair didn't come from Staples and my HOTAS is not plastic.

 

IMHO this thread has probably run its course, I get tired of seeing the misleading title on the main page, because it just isn't true.

 

<S>

Edited April 19, 2016 by MegOhm_SD

[otto]

I guess I an anomaly. I find the P51 a joy to fly and have success dogfighting 109s and 190s.

All the while maintaining control and using the aircraft with smooth well though out moves.

You can't hamfist the P51 and expect it will not depart.

 

So in my mind it's the pilot that probably needs tweaking, not the FM.

 

For the record, my chair didn't come from Staples and my HOTAS is not plastic.

 

<S>

 

You might be more experienced than me in the p51. So it's possible that you're right .

But there is one other thing that is " wrong" with the Ai is that i's impossible for me to get shot down by 109 or d9. Very easy to defeat in scissors but then the 109 climbs too well with low energy.Just IMHO of course.

Edited April 19, 2016 by otto

[Merlin-27]

I guess I an anomaly. I find the P51 a joy to fly and have success dogfighting 109s and 190s.

All the while maintaining control and using the aircraft with smooth well though out moves. You can't hamfist the P51 and expect it will not depart.

 

I find recent dogfights to be the most immersive and most epic of any sim out there.

 

It seems to me the AI behavior has been improved somewhat from what it was.

 

So in my mind it's the pilot that probably needs tweaking, not the FM.

 

For the record, my chair didn't come from Staples and my HOTAS is not plastic.

 

IMHO this thread has probably run its course, I get tired of seeing the misleading title on the main page, because it just isn't true.

 

<S>

 

In total agreement and stick time is crucial.

 

OP, spend a few more hours in the DCS Stang and you will appreciate her a lot more. AI is still very predictable and is really only a danger if you don't see them coming. Training & experience really show in DCS and that's a good thing.

[scotchegg]

If I can add to this as a relative noob not only to the P51 but to combat sims in general; I've found myself able to survive for longer and occasionally defeat the bnz tactics of the AI 190 now (haven't tried the 109 yet, that's the next step) purely thanks to reading and watching tips from more experienced pilots and simply getting plenty of stick time.

[Coyote Duster]

:ranting:Back from the front, all my hope went down the drain again...a buddy of mine and I got manhandled by one k4, just climbs with no regards for energy, it reminds me of two f4f wildcats trying to take on a zero, that's how helpless we felt.

[I.ZG15_FALKE]

... it´s not only you.

Use tacview to review what happend is my tip to improve your results.

Just a quote from Johan Kylander on the topic:

 

"The learning experience is greatly hastened by taking due note of every sortie and

every death in particular. Writing after-action reports, playing the engagement over and over

again in your mind’s eye in search of the critical error, is a great way to improve. While the

terminal error is usually easy to see – overstaying one’s welcome, atrocious gunnery, target

fixation, hesitation, blackout, collisions etc – the critical error generally precedes the terminal

one, sometimes by several minutes, and is usually an error of judgement: you engaged where

you should have disengaged, you thought he had less energy than he actually had, you

overrated your proficiency or had too little respect for the enemy, and so on. Next time you

won’t make that mistake again. Next time you’ll fly faster, higher, closer, aim better, pull less

gravity loads, break off in time, bring friends to a duel.

Fear death, and you will be fearsome.

Sometimes it takes a long time to learn, and some lessons are never learnt."