Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?

[mr_mojo97]

Well Hegykc is doing just that -at some point soon we hope

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Also keep in mind, FFB steering wheels are somewhat easier to design due to simply being rotary motion. Control loading in two axes is more complex and expensive. The demand just doesn't exist. Microsoft has a history of making unprofitable products.

 

Yep.

 

Compared to sim racing, flight sims are also pretty niche. Military flight sims are a niche within a niche.

 

Unfortunately there are other reasons why FFB is harder for flight sims compared to racing sims:

 

FFB is pretty much essential for sim racing (nothing but the cheapest wheel comes without it). FFB is not essential for flight simming.

 

FFB is also only as good as the sim behind it. While DCS may be good at this (I'm sure it is, I've just not tried it), some sims are not (FSX).

 

Add in the extra expense, it really doesn't make it easy for a manufacturer to produce a FFB stick at a competitive price.

 

That said, DCS just keeps getting better so who knows, maybe it'll happen at some point.

[mooimacow]

I called Bugeye and he said the regular Desktop F-18E was around $10,000. They are exploring getting in to the consumer market, but the entry price for the low cost lines still will be several times the cost of a warthog.

 

I emailed Bugeye about the F16 "budget" controls but they never replied to me. I'd pay several times the cost of a warthog for a universal hotas solution. I wish they would make a consumer version of the F35.

[SinusoidDelta]

I got a response a few months back about the Bugeye desktop F16 stick: $3000

 

I wouldn't hold your breath on a budget model coming out.

 

I'd love to fabricate a sidestick based of this design....it's genius:

 

[PoleCat]

I got a response a few months back about the Bugeye desktop F16 stick: $3000

 

I wouldn't hold your breath on a budget model coming out.

 

I'd love to fabricate a sidestick based of this design....it's genius:

 

 

Well when the price of your chosen HOTAS far exceeds the price of the top of the line gaming rig you will be using to fly DCS and unless you are super rich (which of course would be great) you have to ask yourself if you can really still call this a "hobby".

 

Yep.

 

Compared to sim racing, flight sims are also pretty niche. Military flight sims are a niche within a niche.

 

Unfortunately there are other reasons why FFB is harder for flight sims compared to racing sims:

 

FFB is pretty much essential for sim racing (nothing but the cheapest wheel comes without it). FFB is not essential for flight simming.

 

FFB is also only as good as the sim behind it. While DCS may be good at this (I'm sure it is, I've just not tried it), some sims are not (FSX).

 

Add in the extra expense, it really doesn't make it easy for a manufacturer to produce a FFB stick at a competitive price.

 

That said, DCS just keeps getting better so who knows, maybe it'll happen at some point.

 

With devices like the Gametrix Jetseat out there a FF joystick is a far less attractive option then it once was. The seat does a much better job of it in many ways. Although the combination of a FF seat and a good FF driving wheel can be quite amazing as well.

 

Just my opinions of course,

 

Out

Edited February 21, 2016 by PoleCat

[SinusoidDelta]

Well when the price of your chosen HOTAS far exceeds the price of the top of the line gaming rig you will be using to fly DCS and unless you are super rich (which of course would be great) you have to ask yourself if you can really still call this a "hobby".

 

Not really sure what you're getting at. It's evident in the price the bugeye stick is a commercial piece of hardware. It's not my desired HOTAS. Some users inquired about pricing without response, now they know it's not a reasonable option for us.

 

And the side stick images are a NASA developed controller. A unique design I thought I'd share.

[Martini]

Not really sure what you're getting at. It's evident in the price the bugeye stick is a commercial piece of hardware. It's not my desired HOTAS. Some users inquired about pricing without response, now they know it's not a reasonable option for us.

 

And the side stick images are a NASA developed controller. A unique design I thought I'd share.

 

I called and they gave me prices on a few items I was interested in. The stick/throttle combos I asked about were between 3,000 and 10,000 USD. They said that depending on their gov't sales and consumer demand, they would be able to produce in quantities that would put the price range somewhat lower than it currently is. There are definitely people out there that would pay 2-3x the Warthog price for something that's significantly better, but I agree 10,000 USD is probably not reasonable for a standard stick/throttle.

[Sokol1_br]

... that would pay 2-3x the Warthog price for something that's significantly better,...

 

Just curious, how many "significantly better" this Budgeye product is than Warthog for domestic flight sim?

 

A button rated to 1.000.000 cycles will work in the same way for the game than a 0,09$ Chinese version (at least until this last :) ).

[TheSlickOne]

I like the Thrustmaster HOTAS set but the feel is so totally different from the real thing. I have to "man-handle" that thing to maneuver the aircraft. For doing precision work like ILS approaches in wind/turbulence or aerial refueling it's very hard for me (a 3000+ hour pilot of gliders, mostly powered fixed wing, lots of IFR, and some rotary) to make fine-touch or pressure-type control inputs. I suppose I will get used to it, but I worry that I will be ruining my real world flying.

 

Bob, if the Warthog was ever good it's not so any more(of recent units). Not consistently anyways. Mine stuck so bad brand new in the forward position that it would almost stay there by itself. Their T16000m has a wonderful feel by comparison. What a shame. I'm awaiting the new VKB stick with their latest metal gimbal mechanism for that very reason. The kind of FEEL of the stick you've described is the MOST important thing to me. I want to enjoy flying, not button pushing. So the only thing I'll be using from the Warthog is the grip (and even that will be lightened with holes). The rest is garbage (unless you got lucky with a good one). Thrustmasters is riding their earlier quality reputation but the recent quality control is utter crap.

[PoleCat]

Bob, if the Warthog was ever good it's not so any more(of recent units). Not consistently anyways. Mine stuck so bad brand new in the forward position that it would almost stay there by itself. Their T16000m has a wonderful feel by comparison. What a shame. I'm awaiting the new VKB stick with their latest metal gimbal mechanism for that very reason. The kind of FEEL of the stick you've described is the MOST important thing to me. I want to enjoy flying, not button pushing. So the only thing I'll be using from the Warthog is the grip (and even that will be lightened with holes). The rest is garbage (unless you got lucky with a good one). Thrustmasters is riding their earlier quality reputation but the recent quality control is utter crap.

 

Could not disagree with you more.

 

"Mine stuck so bad brand new in the forward position that it would almost stay there by itself."

 

I and many people I know use the Warthog and I have not heard of this from any of them. Two people I know just purchased their Warthogs a couple of weeks ago and they both love them!

 

"if the Warthog was ever good it's not so any more(of recent units)."

 

How many "recent units" have you checked out?

 

As I wrote in an earlier post I am still using my decade + old stock Cougars. These are working fine. In fact I am just now this many years later considering hall sensor kits for my stock Cougars as an upgrade. (even though the pots are working fine). I also own a Warthog which I purchased upon release. I absolutely love it and I expect it will last every bit as long as my Cougar's have.

 

Comparing the feel of the Warthog Stick with the T16000m is like comparing a Ferrari to a Volkswagen. These are just not in the same league......:joystick:

 

It sounds to me like you had a very bad experience but I can say with confidence that while I do know many Warthog owners thankfully I don't know of any that feel as you do about theirs.

 

Out

Edited February 25, 2016 by PoleCat

[Sporg]

Could not disagree with you more.

 

"Mine stuck so bad brand new in the forward position that it would almost stay there by itself."

 

I and many people I know use the Warthog and I have not heard of this from any of them. Two people I know just purchased their Warthogs a couple of weeks ago and they both love them!

 

"if the Warthog was ever good it's not so any more(of recent units)."

 

How many "recent units" have you checked out?

 

As I wrote in an earlier post I am still using my decade + old stock Cougars. These are working fine. In fact I am just now this many years later considering hall sensor kits for my stock Cougars as an upgrade. (even though the pots are working fine). I also own a Warthog which I purchased upon release. I absolutely love it and I expect it will last every bit as long as my Cougar's have.

 

Comparing the feel of the Warthog Stick with the T16000m is like comparing a Ferrari to a Volkswagen. These are just not in the same league......:joystick:

 

It sounds to me like you had a very bad experience but I can say with confidence that while I do know many Warthog owners thankfully I don't know of any that feel as you do about theirs.

Out

Polecat, I must say, I was not so lucky with my recent ones as well.

 

The first one I bought could not extend fully in all corners, so I delivered it back.

The one I bought after that could not extend fully at first either, but after it sort of "clicked" inside in one of my attempts it could now extend fully.

 

Sadly this new sample had sticktion right from the beginning.

It would give a little sound as if two parts were rubbing against each other when I used it.

And I could never be fully precise, because the stick stuck and moved in little jumps.

An extension "fixed" most of it, but really good it only became after I took it apart, sanded the parts that had too tight a fit, and put new grease.

 

So I believe that TM after-treatment and quality control is not as good as it might have been earlier.

[SinusoidDelta]

From a QA standpoint, the probability of a customer receiving two units with defects indicates poor process/quality control. Interesting that I see the TM Warthog on sale fairly often now too. It kind of seems like value engineering to me but that's pure speculation.

 

I loved my warthog at first, aside from the cheap feel of the switches. But after about 1,000 hours of use, the 'stiction' problem emerged and progressed to the point of being unacceptable. I had the same issue, precise stick input was impossible. It was impossible to pull the stick back without inducing considerable amount of Y displacement. The stick would hang up slightly off center position, never in the same spot when hands off. When I disassembled it, the reasons were obvious. This problem isn't limited to the posts in this thread, a Google search shows it's a common problem in addition to all the switch/button failures. It also can't be compared from a reliability standpoint to the TM Cougar, the mechanisms are entirely different.

[some1]

I think you haven't used a cougar, have you?