[GOT WAY OFF TOPIC] RWR gives no indication of being fired at

[TomCatMucDe]

A BETA is suppose to be feature complete. How come every other "Beta" module in DCS is working so well then?

 

Because they actually released a Beta and not an Alpha product.

 

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy flying the thing. But in it's current state you can't really use it in any serious missions or in PVP (unless it's only M2000 vs m2000).

No other DCS release has been like that.

 

For me the two biggest and most breaking things about this is the missing IFF and the poor performance of the 530D. You can barley take on a Mig-21 in a head on pass. Which should be no problem at all if the 530Ds acted like they should.

 

 

What are you whining for????

 

In the manual and in this forum Zeus Saïd million times what will not be implemented in this beta YET!

Look at what you wrote though!

[syn]

and also the Mig-21 was hardly perfect on beta release...

 

Of course it did have bugs. It was a beta release... I personally remember reporting two big ones in the flight model. That's what beta releases are for.

 

In this game Beta means BETA!!!

 

No dude, in this particular case beta means alpha.

 

And the same ppl that are whining about missing features now would probably have been whining even more if they had delayed release for 3-6 months in order to have every single function "perfect"

 

Those are the kids who need a new toy. However, I don't blame them, as RAZBAM threw a huge marketing campaign during the last few weeks suggesting that their product was almost complete. It is not. You cannot advertise a DCS brand product and deliver a FC3 product... beta or whatever.

 

I just hope that this lesson is learned by ED and all 3rd party developers.

Edited December 26, 2015 by syn

[Toybasher]

and also the Mig-21 was hardly perfect on beta release...

 

as i remember it had plenty of problems... including huge Fps problems.

 

And the RWR for the Mig-21 still has bugs.

 

So for a Beta release i think the mirage-2000 is just fine.

 

Its not fully combat capable yet but overall it looks amazing flies amazing and i suggets taking this time to learn the aircraft etc untill all the "combat" systems are fully modeld and effective.

 

Ppl that whine have just never purchased a DCS beta product before...

 

In this game Beta means BETA!!! its not like AAA titles nowadays that are released as a "beta" week or two before launch to act as a demo/tease...

 

And the same ppl that are whining about missing features now would probably have been whining even more if they had delayed release for 3-6 months in order to have every single function "perfect"

 

 

The MiG-21 even now still has issues from what I've read in 2.0. RWR behavior is not correct, canopy lighting doesn't work, oxygen system is buggy and you get hypoxia at a certain altitude (but not above or below that altitude for some reason), SPS jamming pod doesn't work, engine can only be re-lit once, bugs when ejecting, brake assigned to an axis slowly loses pressure, flares and chaff doesn't release sometimes, etc.

 

When we went from 1.0 to 1.5, the MiG completely crashed DCS when you loaded it up. Hotfix released, and missions didn't work. Also the model was buggy, textures weird, etc. Went from 1.5 to 2.0 and the entire cockpit lost all functionality.

 

So people who say the MiG-21 had a perfect launch and all that are sort of wrong. (And I'm a huge LN and MiG-21 fan!) Mirage isn't having a perfect launch either. Either way the MiG-21 has improved quite a bit since launch (But some bugs are still present!) and I'm assuming the Mirage will too.

[Warmbrak]

I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad you did TomCatMucDe.

[cameleon33]

Yes there are a lot of functions that are not implemented or that needs work.

Razbam is really well aware of it.

 

Just see it like this: As we all have access to the module now, we'll be able to give our feedbacks. It will probably help them improve quickly and deliver the final version a lot sooner that what it would have been otherwise.

 

And from the intervention and communication of the RAZBAM team, I'll say that we can be pretty confident about the future of this module!

[BaconSarnie]

RAZBAM threw a huge marketing campaign during the last few weeks suggesting that their product was almost complete. It is not.

 

I think maybe you've been reading a different forum to the rest of us, every post I've seen lately from both RAZBAM and ED have all stated its no where near finished, that its very much a WIP Beta, many features arent yet implemented etc.

Cant find anything at all from RAZBAM in particular that even vaguely says that its almost complete.

[syn]

Well, to be honest I didn't follow that marketing campaign too closely, so I may have missed all those details. I just assumed that beta meant beta.

 

And in any case, ED opening the door for third party products to be made publicly available with this many unfinished features under the DCS brand name opens a dangerous door... I don't think this is the first case it happens but it is the first time it happens to something I purchased. This kind of policy allows the developers to shift resources to different projects potentially slowing down the delivery of a final full-feature version, while getting money in the pocket out of far-from-finished alpha content. I hope there is some control of this from ED's side and we do get a high quality final product.

Edited December 26, 2015 by syn

[OnlyforDCS]

Well Razbam have stated that they mean to finish the module within the next 6 months. Considering the speed with which they have delivered the beta (from announcement) I don't think this is far fetched. Most other betas we have had in this game have taken significantly longer.

[BaconSarnie]

Well, to be honest I didn't follow that marketing campaign too closely, so I may have missed all those details. I just assumed that beta meant beta.

 

Hang on, you made claims saying RAZBAM had done a massive marketing campaign stating the Mirage was almost finished and you more or less accused them of lying, now you claim not to have payed much attention to any marketing campaigns.

 

Anyone else confused?

[OxideMako]

Hang on, you made claims saying RAZBAM had done a massive marketing campaign stating the Mirage was almost finished and you more or less accused them of lying, now you claim not to have payed much attention to any marketing campaigns.

 

Anyone else confused?

 

Not only that, they provided a list of stuff that would not work BEFORE it released. They have been perfectly clear and open with us. It is on the customer if they buy something without researching it first. While I do think we should have less "Beta" releases as a whole, this is the first 4th Gen DCS fighter, and even in its current state is more finished than the hawk has ever been. Sure it is no MiG-21 yet, but It has a lot of potential from an experienced Dev.

[Pikey]

Can I vote that Razbam disables the licenses for those that do not want to join the testing program? That way the forum might be full of helpful people contributing to the final version and not whining. Got to love the definitions of alpha beta and so on...any fool can tell these terms are whatever the developer wants them to mean. There nothing written to define these beyond a couple of vague lines in wiki.

[BaconSarnie]

Not only that, they provided a list of stuff that would not work BEFORE it released. They have been perfectly clear and open with us. It is on the customer if they buy something without researching it first. While I do think we should have less "Beta" releases as a whole, this is the first 4th Gen DCS fighter, and even in its current state is more finished than the hawk has ever been.

Amen brother

[JNelson]

You can drop bombs and shoot people down I am happy with it for now.

[mvsgas]

Perfect case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Some people will ask for a wet dream and complain about a wet pants.

 

RWR seems to work for me. I only tested few aircraft, will try more, maybe is a specific aircraft not giving the warning.

[kuri77]

I'm just happy to finally have a 4th gen fighter with ASM.... I really don't even mind that it is buggy, at least i get to practise and become familiar with it until it gets patched.

[syn]

Hang on, you made claims saying RAZBAM had done a massive marketing campaign stating the Mirage was almost finished and you more or less accused them of lying, now you claim not to have payed much attention to any marketing campaigns.

 

Anyone else confused?

 

Yes, exactly. As someone who doesn't follow every single post on social media, I assumed that beta meant the same than it does for the whole rest of the software development industry (that spans further away than "a couple of vague lines in wiki").

 

And don't take me wrong, I don't have any problem with the current state of the plane itself. What I do have a problem with is the fact that this product is publicly released in a far from finished state and now, as end-user, I have no guarantee that this will get finished at a decent standard in the future, other than trusting on the good faith of the developers.

 

I don't think these kind of releases bring any good to the flight sim community, and only time will tell if those products released in incomplete alpha states make it to a quality final release, or we start seeing more and more modules being sold in incomplete states with no truly unfinished work. I do think that ED should have a stricter QA control in place for release of early-access content.

Edited December 26, 2015 by syn

[BaconSarnie]

Im gonna ask again, where is this massive marketing campaign saying the Mirage 2000 was nearly done, no one but you has seen it

[Muppetlord]

What are you whining for????

 

In the manual and in this forum Zeus Saïd million times what will not be implemented in this beta YET!

Look at what you wrote though!

 

And like I've said.

I knew some things were missing. Yes I read what Zeus wrote.

As for what I wrote, I was hyped. Just like everyone else.

 

And like I've also said. I enjoy the thing. I love it even. I'm just a bit disappointed.

 

And it also makes me ****ing sad that the word Beta has lost it's meaning completely.

 

Alpha and beta is the same thing now. It ranges from an unfinished broken mess to an almost complete product with some bugs.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Muppetlord

[syn]

Im gonna ask again, where is this massive marketing campaign saying the Mirage 2000 was nearly done, no one but you has seen it

 

Okay, this is like talking to a wall. Good bye. I'll come back on the final release to congratulate RAZBAM on meeting and/or exceeding my expectations (if it ever happens).

 

EDIT: as a last ditch. I reiterate my request to ED to strengthen the QA requirements for early-access releases to make sure modules meet especially similar feature completion levels as past early access releases. This is in order to protect the investment of their customers an ensure DCS quality final release content.

Edited December 26, 2015 by syn

[Fri13]

A BETA is suppose to be feature complete. How come every other "Beta" module in DCS is working so well then?

 

Beta doesn't mean software is feature complete. It means it is still missing features but main features are there. Alpha is like software barely works, it runs but crash a lot and there is lots of core features missing.

 

After beta there comes the RC aka release candidate that is feature complete and is waiting a polishing.

 

The RC is the thing that should be called in most other modules like Mi-8MTv2 that was ready to be released but was requiring polishing.

[Fri13]

There nothing written to define these beyond a couple of vague lines in wiki.

 

They are fairly well accepted words among engineers, inventors etc. But the global end users doesn't really know what they mean. But yet in the end the words are as good as "It isn't finished", "it comes when it is ready" and "it is perfect!".

 

It is eventually the other person that is drawing the line what is accepted level for release.

And that's why software business is so flawed and bogus because there ain't such standards and safety checks as most other products for consumers are. The best thing that is there for software are the common consumer laws protecting consumers rights to return product etc, and even that is lacking severely.

 

Software development is easy and fast, you just need bunch of people and computers, feed them and they will make a "product". But the product is by quality anything between Van Gogh and 5 year old kinder garden kid water color painting. Difference is just that every parent will think (or at least say) that they love their kids works. But many parent will say they would't like Van Gogh painting on their living room. So does it make kids better artists?

 

It is vague, but in well accepted perimeters.

[fjacobsen]

Beta doesn't mean software is feature complete. It means it is still missing features but main features are there. Alpha is like software barely works, it runs but crash a lot and there is lots of core features missing.

 

After beta there comes the RC aka release candidate that is feature complete and is waiting a polishing.

 

The RC is the thing that should be called in most other modules like Mi-8MTv2 that was ready to be released but was requiring polishing.

 

Small adjustment to that statement....

 

Alpha: Unfinished and under developement - only rough modelling and rough coding. Features will be added as the alpha stage progresses. Testing in mostly done by the developersthemselves, maybe supplementet by some feedback from a few seasoned betatesters.

 

Beta: Almost finished - Modelling more or less finished apart from some texture refinements and modelling details. Coding also more or less finished, only missing minor systems will be added as well as bugfixing/tweaking of existing code according to Beta tester feedback.

 

Release Candidate: Considered finished - most testing is to assure proper file versions and correct function of the installer. Very minor bugfixes and freezing of further feature additions.

 

 

Personally I would call the M2000C early beta since it still misses some major systems like the INS and additions to the weapons, radar and many sub systems.

 

I will keep from saying whether its too early for release or not, cause it really depends on how fast further developement occurs.

 

The Belsim Mi-8 was late beta when it was released, but still missed alot of features, but most important the development progress after beta release simply was too long (IMHO).

 

 

As posted elsewhere - This is really not meant as a complaint about the M2000C. I knew it would be Beta when I bought it, and has tried this excersise with both ED, Belsimtek and Leatherneck and I´m confident that Razbam also will catch the finishline, they are not newcommers to this genre.

 

FinnJ

Edited December 26, 2015 by fjacobsen

[baltic_dragon]

Come on guys, if they just named this release "alpha" then nobody would complain about unfinished features, but we would hear voices that they are behind schedule or something. People always will find reasons to complain.

 

The purpose of beta is to identify and catch bugs which would be more difficult to find in internal testing and anyone signing up for it should know that the product won't be finished. I am sure the guys at RAZBAM will do their best to implement missing features and polish existing ones and let's focus on helping them with that instead of complaining. If someone wants to have a fully functional plane - wait for final release. And enjoy flying!

[Capn kamikaze]

Beta or not...This is barley acceptable. :(

 

Beta?

 

I'd say it would struggle to be considered an Alpha.

 

Sorry to say it but it looks like RAZBAM let their desire for a Christmas release take priority over delivering something in a state to be released.

[Capn kamikaze]

I can't believe what I am reading...

You guys were acting like children to get your xmas toy ASAP, promising that you wouldn't whining if it were buggy and now it is out and playable, you are using big words for complaining that it is not a beta.

 

Not all of us, not by a long shot.

 

I'd rather wait until June for it if it meant it was usable, in its current state it just isn't.