[REPORTED] Consistency/logic in right/left mouse click in cockpit

[Redglyph]

Hello, I have some trouble understanding the logic behind the right/left mouse click to flip switches up and down.

 

A few examples in the A-10C, DCS 2.0.0.47610.34:

 

1) Temp/press: up=NORM, middle=OFF, down=RAM

2) Position: up=FLASH, middle=OFF, down=STEADY

3) IFCC: up=ON, middle=TEST, down=OFF

4) NMS LTS: up=TOP, middle=ALL, down=OFF

 

For (1) and (4), right click=flip upwards, left click=flip downwards,

for (2) and (3), it's the opposite.

 

It's often a problem, for instance when I need to switch IFCC from test mode to on in the start-up procedure, I'm never quite sure it's a left or a right click. Others might be a problem during the flight.

 

Why not have a consistent logic for those switches? Unless there's a logic I missed?

Could that be changed?

 

I haven't check other aircraft yet regarding this issue. And regarding the knobs, I think it's consistent, right-click for clockwise and left-click for counter-clockwise.

[derelor]

You are perfectly right, Redglyph.

 

If you have the time, please list all cockpit elements that do not follow the attached standard and I will try to have them changed.

 

Thank you for the report.

[Redglyph]

You are perfectly right, Redglyph.

 

If you have the time, please list all cockpit elements that do not follow the attached standard and I will try to have them changed.

 

Thank you for the report.

 

I'll try and find the time to save you the trouble, sure. That's a nice document you have there, can I find it somewhere? That'd be easier :)

[Blackeye]

After a quick check the following 3-way switches seem to be reversed:

 

Transponder/IFF Audio/Light

Autopilot Mode Select

Seat up/down

HUD Video Selector

Landing Lights

Master Arm

Gun Arm

Laser Arm

Altimeter Source

IFFCC ON

Canopy open close

Oxygen Flow

Position Flash

HARS Mag Var

 

The RWR system switches jump to their top position on a single right click - not sure if that is intended. The RWR jettison switch only works on left click.

 

 

Additional question: would it be possible to prevent switches and dials from "rolling over", i.e. if they are already at their top position and you click "up" they would stay there instead of flipping to their downmost position.

The intercom selector and autopilot mode switch do this already - would be nice to have for all switches (3- and 2-way) and dials imho.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Blackeye

[Redglyph]

I'm still busy, but I found more inconsistencies. I'll upload an Excel sheet later, it's probably not worth doing the same job in parallel ;)

 

Same question about the knobs and switches that wrap around, IMHO it's better to avoid this behaviour.

[Blackeye]

As I said just a quick cockpit check because your topic piqued my interest - skipped most dials actually.

That wrap around has bothered me from day one though :joystick:

[Redglyph]

You are perfectly right, Redglyph.

 

If you have the time, please list all cockpit elements that do not follow the attached standard and I will try to have them changed.

 

Thank you for the report.

 

Here's how far I went at the moment, I'll update later but I've had enough for now :D Besides, I'd rather make sure it's going in the right direction (no pun intended).

 

Actions marked in red are not as expected, highlighted ones are the most annoying.

 

In this thread, the common convention was: left mouse = down/anticlockwise, right mouse = up/clockwise, and that's what I took as reference. Now, a great part of the A-10C cockpit seems to act the opposite way regarding up/down so there's a lot of red in my Excel sheet. What should be the reference? Left down and anticlockwise seem (right up and clockwise) quite logical and consistent.

 

Some remarks:

- push/pull knobs would be more logical with left = push (left is down, right is up, push buttons are pushed with left click - why do the reverse?)

- most knob switches are OK, but as Blackeye says, many are wrapping around (1st goes to last and last goes to 1st), this should be prevented

- most switches just toggle, instead of being flipped up or down (same wrapping around problem maybe)

- most "analogue" knobs, turned with the wheel mouse, are fine except TEST and REPLY on the IFF.

 

UPDATE: removed draft, final report in later post.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Redglyph

[derelor]

I haven't check other aircraft yet regarding this issue.

P-51D, UH-1H, F-86F, MiG-15bis, Fw-190D9, Bf-109K4, L-39C should fully conform to the standards I posted above.

[Redglyph]

Ah OK, that was actually from a general spec, not a list of the A-10C controls.

 

Here is the final report, hopefully this will help. I removed all simple switches, since they are meant to toggle with either mouse button, except the push & pull switches in case they have to be more consistent with down and up movements.

 

It has 3 tabs for left, front and right consoles. Left and right consoles are examined from bottom to top, looking first at the whole left column, then the whole right column.

 

I didn't check all the mouse click + mouse up/down for the knobs, most of them seemed OK. At some point, I stopped reporting the push buttons that seem straightforward (not much to say on them).

 

Let me know if something is not clear.

cockpit_sw.zip

[Redglyph]

It seems the L-39 has those 3-way switches working as expected, and they are not wrapping around (when at top, a right-click won't move it to the bottom).

 

However, the 4-way switches, or more correctly the switches with 3 positions in a circle are going clockwise with left clicks and counter-clockwise with right clicks. So for example cabin heating and rockets firing mode are working in the wrong direction. But it remains consistent in the same aircraft, so it's not really annoying.

[some1]

P-51D, UH-1H, F-86F, MiG-15bis, Fw-190D9, Bf-109K4, L-39C should fully conform to the standards I posted above.

 

What about those knobs that are not fully analog but can be rotated, like all frequency knobs and similar? The easiest way to control them is with mouse wheel, but many times in DCS only left/right click is available. For example:

 

A-10:

Frequency knobs on the right panel (TACAN, ILS) can be rotated with mouse wheel. Frequency knobs on the left panel (COMM, UHF, COMM2) can not.

 

UH-1:

You can use mouse wheel to tune all radios - except COMM FM radio for no apparent reason.

 

Mi-8:

Can't use mouse wheel to tune radios or rotate selectors.

 

Ka-50:

Can't use mouse wheel to tune radios, but can use mouse wheel to rotate ABRIS knobs (which technically work the same way).

 

L-39:

Can't use mouse wheel to tune radios even though it would be very convenient to do for RSBN channels selector.

[Redglyph]

You are perfectly right, Redglyph.

 

If you have the time, please list all cockpit elements that do not follow the attached standard and I will try to have them changed.

 

Thank you for the report.

 

Hello, did you get the file?

[derelor]

Hello, did you get the file?

Yes, thank you! I will report it to the devs.

[Redglyph]

Yes, thank you! I will report it to the devs.

 

Great, thanks!

[cichlidfan]

This is an area that really should be set as a standard for all parties and partners to agree to and abide by.

[derelor]

Reported as ticket #33037.

 

This is an area that really should be set as a standard for all parties and partners to agree to and abide by.

Agreed.

[derelor]

It seems the L-39 has those 3-way switches working as expected, and they are not wrapping around (when at top, a right-click won't move it to the bottom).

 

However, the 4-way switches, or more correctly the switches with 3 positions in a circle are going clockwise with left clicks and counter-clockwise with right clicks. So for example cabin heating and rockets firing mode are working in the wrong direction. But it remains consistent in the same aircraft, so it's not really annoying.

In my version, only the Rockets Firing Mode Selector Switch has inverted switch logic. Reported (ticket #31766).

EDIT: Fixed internally.

Edited December 19, 2015 by derelor

[Pikey]

Some great work in this thread guys, keep it up!

[Redglyph]

In my version, only the Rockets Firing Mode Selector Switch has inverted switch logic. Reported (ticket #31766).

 

I checked again and you're right, my mistake.

 

The protective caps are not all consistent either, though it's really not that bif of a problem.

• the "LIVE" cap (front console, bottom), when closed when the switch is in UP position, keeps the switch in up position, which looks bad (see L39_cap1.jpg);
  
• the EMERG. JETTIS., when closed, puts the switch DOWN (which feels correct), so does OFF JPT REG. on the left console;
  
• the other protective caps cannot be closed when their switch is UP.
  

 

If I compare to other aircraft:

 

In the KA-50, it's possible to close the protective caps on some of the switches, and the cap remains a little higher in that case (nice!) ;) The others have a hole to leaves the switch alone. All seems coherent.

 

In the A-10C, the one protective cap behaves as in the KA-50, it closes without moving the switch but remains a little higher.

 

In the Huey, the protective caps change the switches when closed (like the main generator, for instance), except maybe the JETTISON at the bottom of the central console, which behaves a little strangely, and so does its switch: I had to click two times on the cap to open it, and the switch seems to respond to left clicks only.

 

In the P-51, I finally found out that I had to click on the labels to make a switch move when it had a protective cap, and not try to click the switch itself! Very difficult to reach in the case of the supercharger, and a bit different in behaviour than the other modules. When closed, some of the protective caps move the switch, others don't but they have enough room and it seems on purpose.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Redglyph

[Redglyph]

And now I promise I'll stop bugging you about all that ;)

[Redglyph]

Yes, thank you! I will report it to the devs.

 

Hello!

 

Did they accept to fix those buttons and knobs? I'm not counting anymore the number of times I flipped a switch the wrong way because of this flawed logic :/

[derelor]

Hello!

 

Did they accept to fix those buttons and knobs? I'm not counting anymore the number of times I flipped a switch the wrong way because of this flawed logic :/

The ticket is assigned to the relevant developer and waiting to be fixed.

[gospadin]

Thank you guys for standardizing, really appreciate it. Reduces a lot of the frustration with multiple modules.

 

Hopefully they can get to it soon (go go 2.5 merge!)

[Redglyph]

I'm sorry to come back on this yet again, but is there an estimation of when it will be addressed? It's been duly reported 7 months ago, and seems to have been forgotten since then...

[Redglyph]

This has been one year, is there any estimation when it will be fixed?

 

Actually, I see how to do it, I'll post the fixed file later :)

Edited December 11, 2016 by Redglyph