DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[mattebubben]

When you read about the complexities of an aircraft like the Viggen and what its own onboard computing facilities could do, you really have to take a step back and just soak in the sort of technological progress that we've seen since the Viggen was brand new. Now, you're sitting at a computer that not only calculates all of the data for the Viggen's avionics, but it's also calculating the flight dynamics on top of that for both aircraft and munitions. And that's just for a single player-flown aircraft in the sim. Then you have the computations for, literally, everything else.

 

It also serves to underline how much complexity goes into these modules.

 

yea its amazing to imagine that ur avg smartphone today is most probably more powerfull then the "computer" in something like a viggen.

 

And it had a Computer that was state of the art of the day.

 

and the Computer on the viggen is not really a computer as we know it and worked in a far different way (as far as i understand atleast).

 

But yea the progress of tech is amazing and pretty mind boggling.

 

Sadly we are wrecking our planet at almost as fast a pace as we are inventing new tech ^^ but hey what can you do xD

[BlackLion213]

When you read about the complexities of an aircraft like the Viggen and what its own onboard computing facilities could do, you really have to take a step back and just soak in the sort of technological progress that we've seen since the Viggen was brand new. Now, you're sitting at a computer that not only calculates all of the data for the Viggen's avionics, but it's also calculating the flight dynamics on top of that for both aircraft and munitions. And that's just for a single player-flown aircraft in the sim. Then you have the computations for, literally, everything else.

 

It also serves to underline how much complexity goes into these modules.

 

That's a really great point and yes, it's rather remarkable. On both the computer's processing ability and the complexity of these programs.

 

When I was in High School, one of my math teachers was a retired USAF Colonel (started as a pilot in the B-36) who was a mission commander for some of the early Apollo missions. He liked to remind us that the massive computer that occupied most of the Apollo command module had less than half the computational capability of our Ti-82 calculators. And now look at how much processing power is built into our phones, let alone the kind of computer needed to run DCS well.

 

Pretty staggering! Plus, isn't the physics modeling and avionics modeling the smaller task for the computer compared to the graphics/visuals? Progress indeed.

 

-Nick

[schroedi]

So, the A/A modes are compareable with the the A/A radar from the MiG-21bis or the F-5E-3?

What chances in A/A would the upcomming Viggen has against the MiG-21 and the F-5E?

Does it have all aspect Sidewinders?

(Yes, i know it's a fighter bomber not a fighter or interceptor)

 

.

Edited February 18, 2016 by schroedi

[mattebubben]

So, the A/A modes are compareable with the the A/A radar from the MiG-21bis or the F-5E-3?

What chances in A/A would the upcomming Viggen has against the MiG-21 and the F-5E?

Does it have all aspect Sidewinders?

(Yes, i know it's a fighter bomber not a fighter or interceptor)

 

.

 

The Radar is capable of scanning for targets but it cant iff (as its just scanning for returns but pointed at the sky instead of at the ground)

 

And it cant lock up targets either as we know it.

 

It has 6 pylons that are able to carry Aim-9s.

 

It can carry all aspect RB 74 (swedish Designation of Aim-9L)

on atleast 4 of those 6 pylons and the rear aspect only RB 24J

(Aim-9P3 or Aim-9J sources differ) can be carried on all pylons

 

So with an air-air loadout with 4 Aim-9L and 2 Aim-9P

 

it should be very capable in a wvr fight against something like a Mig-21Bis or F-5E.

 

The radar is well able to range for targets either by using the "scan" mode and using the range markers or by using a ranging mode where the radar scans a tigher area directly infront of you (boresight)

 

And the range will be calculated to give you cues on the HUD for optimal fireing range.

 

You are also able to Uncage the seekerhead after the seeker has locked onto a target wich allows you to maneuver (up to 40°) while still letting the seeker to look at the target.

 

So against a Mig-21Bis or F-5E the AJS 37 should be pretty competitive (even though in reality it would never go hunting for enmy fighters)

 

the AJ 37 (and the later AJS variant)

 

was intended to be able to do simpler interception missions (against Strike aircraft, bombers or transports etc) letting the Swedish fighters (like the JA-37 and J-35) focus on the enemy fighters.

 

But against something like a Mig-21 or F-5 it should handle itself well.

[amb]

The Radar is capable of scanning for targets but it cant iff (as its just scanning for returns but pointed at the sky instead of at the ground)

 

And it cant lock up targets either as we know it.

 

It has 6 pylons that are able to carry Aim-9s.

 

It can carry all aspect RB 74 (swedish Designation of Aim-9L)

on atleast 4 of those 6 pylons and the rear aspect only RB 24J

(Aim-9P3 or Aim-9J sources differ) can be carried on all pylons

 

So with an air-air loadout with 4 Aim-9L and 2 Aim-9P

 

it should be very capable in a wvr fight against something like a Mig-21Bis or F-5E.

 

The radar is well able to range for targets either by using the "scan" mode and using the range markers or by using a ranging mode where the radar scans a tigher area directly infront of you (boresight)

 

And the range will be calculated to give you cues on the HUD for optimal fireing range.

 

You are also able to Uncage the seekerhead after the seeker has locked onto a target wich allows you to maneuver (up to 40°) while still letting the seeker to look at the target.

 

So against a Mig-21Bis or F-5E the AJS 37 should be pretty competitive (even though in reality it would never go hunting for enmy fighters)

 

the AJ 37 (and the later AJS variant)

 

was intended to be able to do simpler interception missions (against Strike aircraft, bombers or transports etc) letting the Swedish fighters (like the JA-37 and J-35) focus on the enemy fighters.

 

But against something like a Mig-21 or F-5 it should handle itself well.

 

This is assuming you don't want any counter-measures though, if you do, it would be 2 Aim-9L and 2 Aim-9P. The fact that you have to sacrifice 2 of your most precious pylons just to get counter-measures is one of my biggest gripes with the Viggen :(

[mattebubben]

This is assuming you don't want any counter-measures though, if you do, it would be 2 Aim-9L and 2 Aim-9P. The fact that you have to sacrifice 2 of your most precious pylons just to get counter-measures is one of my biggest gripes with the Viggen :(

 

Well you dont need to carry 2 pods for the Counter measures.

 

You have 1 pod for jammer and one pod for Chaff/flare.

 

Or you can go with 2 Chaff / flare pods.

 

But if you only want Chaff/flares you only need 1 pod instead off two.

 

And also plenty of attack aircraft also used dedicated countermeassure pods (The Tornado for example used a pod based off the viggen pod)

 

you if you only fly with a single Chaff/flare pod you can still carry 3 Aim-9L and 2 Aim-9P.

 

But again Its not a fighter.

 

Its an attack aircraft with a secondary air-air abillity.

 

And also 4 missiles + 2 countermeassure pods is still twice as many missiles as the F-5E and as many as the standard missile loadout of the Mig-21.

 

And the AJS-37 was very unlikley to fly with 4 or 6 IR missiles as it was primarily air-ground and you usually dont need 4+ Ir missiles to intercept a bomber / transport aircraft.

 

And you have to remember that the Viggen is a 70s aircraft.

 

Most airplanes back then had either no coutermeassures or had dedicated countermeasure pods and the Viggen had the countermeasure pod from day one.

 

And its only with the AJS 37 upgrade that it could carry 6 Aim-9s.

 

Before that it was 2 (some sources state 4) and then the two outboard pylons where only able to carry the RB-28 (Upgraded Aim-4 Falcon)

 

So you should just be glad you can carry 4 + 2x countermeassure or 6 without countermeasures.

 

And also for combat missions the AJ 37 would operate in fours wich would multiply ur weaponsload.

 

And if you Compare the AJS 37 with comparable aircraft like the Su 17/22, Mig-27, Sepecat jaguar or A7 Corsair etc then payloads are comparable.

Edited February 18, 2016 by mattebubben

[amb]

Well you dont need to carry 2 pods for the Counter measures.

 

You have 1 pod for jammer and one pod for Chaff/flare.

 

Or you can go with 2 Chaff / flare pods.

 

But if you only want Chaff/flares you only need 1 pod instead off two.

 

And also plenty of attack aircraft also used dedicated countermeassure pods (The Tornado for example used a pod based off the viggen pod)

 

you if you only fly with a single Chaff/flare pod you can still carry 3 Aim-9L and 2 Aim-9P.

 

But again Its not a fighter.

 

Its an attack aircraft with a secondary air-air abillity.

 

And also 4 missiles + 2 countermeassure pods is still twice as many missiles as the F-5E and as many as the standard missile loadout of the Mig-21.

 

I thought you had to have them in pairs because that's the only way I've seen them in various loadout-charts. If one is enough then I guess that helps a bit.

 

I'm somewhat concered in general about the limited loadout of the Viggen though - I mean, I hate to be mr. negative here and rain on everyones parade, but it seems to me that the payload will be very limited if you want some basic counter-measures as well as some basic anti-air capability. Because then you're basically left with a total air to ground payload of 2 or 3 mavericks (or whatever you choose), which is hardly very impressive for an aircraft that is supposed to be a ground pounder. It's also made even worse by the fact that it doesn't have any cannon either.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I'm still SUPER EXCITED about this module and I will buy it as soon as I have a chance. I just wish that the swedish airforce back in the 60's would have decided to give the Viggen the capability to carry a larger payload - I mean it seems like weight is not the problem since it can carry 3 anti-ship missiles, so all they would have needed to do was to buy some of those bi-couplers for mavericks so you can carry 2 per pylon, and get some bigger bombs etc. but no... stupid 60's aircraft designers - didn't they think about gaming in 2016 at all? :)

[amb]

Thinking more about it though - this is not an A-10, it's not for lingering around, it's more of a "one pass - haul ass" kind of aircraft, so I think I can live with the limited loadout :)

[mattebubben]

I thought you had to have them in pairs because that's the only way I've seen them in various loadout-charts. If one is enough then I guess that helps a bit.

 

I'm somewhat concered in general about the limited loadout of the Viggen though - I mean, I hate to be mr. negative here and rain on everyones parade, but it seems to me that the payload will be very limited if you want some basic counter-measures as well as some basic anti-air capability. Because then you're basically left with a total air to ground payload of 2 or 3 mavericks (or whatever you choose), which is hardly very impressive for an aircraft that is supposed to be a ground pounder. It's also made even worse by the fact that it doesn't have any cannon either.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I'm still SUPER EXCITED about this module and I will buy it as soon as I have a chance. I just wish that the swedish airforce back in the 60's would have decided to give the Viggen the capability to carry a larger payload - I mean it seems like weight is not the problem since it can carry 3 anti-ship missiles, so all they would have needed to do was to buy some of those bi-couplers for mavericks so you can carry 2 per pylon, and get some bigger bombs etc. but no... stupid 60's aircraft designers - didn't they think about gaming in 2016 at all? :)

 

Well first.

 

The Viggen is not a CAS aircraft its a strike aircraft.

 

And the entire idea behind its use was get drop your payload against the targets and then get out.

 

And the Payload is very comparable most other aircraft of similar role and timeframe (Su-17/22, Mig-27 And Sepecat jaguar etc)

 

I dont know if it was ever considered to acquire the American launchrail that allowed for multiple Mavericks but it would have required a new pylon/hardpoint and its possible that the size/drag would have been a problem and not the weight.

 

Personally my standard Anti Tank loadout will probably be 3x Agm-65 (RB 75) 1x Chaff/flare pod (unless i know there is no airdefence) and 2 Aim-9P for self defence.

 

And for the duties the Viggen was designed to do the armament was deemed enough (especially if they attacked in groups)

 

And again getting in and out quickly was the entire idea behind AJ 37 attack missions.

 

So circeling around the target area looking for targets for all of your missiles was not something it was ever intended to do.

 

It was pop in fire of ur 2-4 missiles (or drop ur bombs rockets or whatever you where carrying) and then get out.

 

But i agree that they could have optimised the armament options (like making the changes done in the AJS upgrade that allowed Aim-9s on all pylons allowed Mvericks on 4 instead of 2 pylons etc from day one instead of near the end of its service )

 

But it comes down to what the swedish airforce felt it needed.

 

Any possible export customers would have likley been able to tailor the loadout options to whatever they wanted / needed but as it was never exported the AJ 37 is tailored completely after the swedish airforces needs.

 

And also the Countermeasure pods where mostly carred by the recce airplanes.

 

Since the primary defence for the AJ 37 was low flying and tactics (and getting in and out before the enemy knew what had happened)

 

And Tactics / manuvering is always more effective then Chaff/flare.

 

And the Tactics for the Attack viggen was for a very low altitude approach (20-50m) before a pop up and attack and then down to the deck again.

 

And Chaff/flare dispensers was not as common in the 70s-80s.

 

And when it comes to limited loadouts this was and aircraft with very short turnround time.

 

the avg turnaround time for Weapons / fuel was 8-10 minutes and then you could go again.

 

And in a defensive situation it would be very possible to do multiple sorties quickly.

 

Basicly you could take off fly to the target at high speed (that would be at most a few hundred KM away)

 

you do ur attack run and get back to base

 

you land re arm and refuel in 10 minutes and you can be back up for another strike in a very short amount of time.

 

The large weapons load is more important when we are talking about long missions with hours of flight time to the target instead of quick strikes where you can be at the target and back again in less then 30 minutes.

Edited February 18, 2016 by mattebubben

[amb]

Well first.

 

The Viggen is not a CAS aircraft its a strike aircraft.

 

And the entire idea behind its use was get drop your payload against the targets and then get out.

 

And the Payload is very comparable most other aircraft of similar role and timeframe (Su-17/22, Mig-27 And Sepecat jaguar etc)

 

I dont know if it was ever considered to acquire the American launchrail that allowed for multiple Mavericks but it would have required a new pylon/hardpoint and its possible that the size/drag would have been a problem and not the weight.

 

Personally my standard Anti Tank loadout will probably be 3x Agm-65 (RB 75) 1x Chaff/flare pod (unless i know there is no airdefence) and 2 Aim-9P for self defence.

 

And for the duties the Viggen was designed to do the armament was deemed enough (especially if they attacked in groups)

 

And again getting in and out quickly was the entire idea behind AJ 37 attack missions.

 

So circeling around the target area looking for targets for all of your missiles was not something it was ever intended to do.

 

It was pop in fire of ur 2-4 missiles (or drop ur bombs rockets or whatever you where carrying) and then get out.

 

But i agree that they could have optimised the armament options (like making the changes done in the AJS upgrade that allowed Aim-9s on all pylons allowed Mvericks on 4 instead of 2 pylons etc from day one instead of near the end of its service )

 

But it comes down to what the swedish airforce felt it needed.

 

Any possible export customers would have likley been able to tailor the loadout options to whatever they wanted / needed but as it was never exported the AJ 37 is tailored completely after the swedish airforces needs.

 

And also the Countermeasure pods where mostly carred by the recce airplanes.

 

Since the primary defence for the AJ 37 was low flying and tactics (and getting in and out before the enemy knew what had happened)

 

And Tactics / manuvering is always more effective then Chaff/flare.

 

And the Tactics for the Attack viggen was for a very low altitude approach (20-50m) before a pop up and attack and then down to the deck again.

 

And Chaff/flare dispensers was not as common in the 70s-80s.

 

And when it comes to limited loadouts this was and aircraft with very short turnround time.

 

the avg turnaround time for Weapons / fuel was 8-10 minutes and then you could go again.

 

And in a defensive situation it would be very possible to do multiple sorties quickly.

 

Basicly you could take off fly to the target at high speed (that would be at most a few hundred KM away)

 

you do ur attack run and get back to base

 

you land re arm and refuel in 10 minutes and you can be back up for another strike in a very short amount of time.

 

The large weapons load is more important when we are talking about long missions with hours of flight time to the target instead of quick strikes where you can be at the target and back again in less then 30 minutes.

 

All good points - I agree. And perhaps it's not too far off to say that it's actually mainly an anti-ship plane, and I suspect it will do quite well in that role.

[mattebubben]

yea anti ship was one of the most important roles if the enemy decided to come over sea.

 

 

Since the best way to defend sweden was to prevent them from landing in force.

 

And it was alot easier and effective to sink / destroy the enemy equipment in the Transport ships / landing craft then it would have been once they landed and could disperse.

 

There was 2 main plans of defense (possible invasions paths by the soviets)

 

One was a focused invasion by sea and air into eastern / southern sweden / gotland.

 

In that Scenario the anti ship role would have been the most important (atleast early on)

 

And the other Scenario was a two pronged attack with the main force cutting through finland and invading sweden from the north with a secondary attack over the ocean.

 

In that case the viggen would have seen more air-ground duties against an invading land army.

[RaXha]

Because then you're basically left with a total air to ground payload of 2 or 3 mavericks (or whatever you choose)

 

Well, as others have mentioned the entire design of the Viggen centered around a doctrine that pretty much allowed no loitering over the target area at all. :-) It was always designed for "quick get in and dump all you have on the target area and get out asap" type missions. :P

[mattebubben]

Well, as others have mentioned the entire design of the Viggen centered around a doctrine that pretty much allowed no loitering over the target area at all. :-) It was always designed for "quick get in and dump all you have on the target area and get out asap" type missions. :P

 

One example of that would be the fact that the rocket pods are a all or nothing affair .

 

You cant just launch one or 2 rockets (per pod)

 

When you launch they all launch.

 

 

one of the Few videos of a Viggen doing a rocket attack

(a very nice viggen vido overall its of SF (AJSF) 37 and SH (AJSH) 37 recce viggens but the rockets worked in the same way in all variants)

Edited February 18, 2016 by mattebubben

[RaXha]

One example of that would be the fact that the rocket pods are a all or nothing affair .

 

You cant just launch one or 2 rockets (per pod)

 

When you launch they all launch.

 

 

one of the Few videos of a Viggen doing a rocket attack

(a very nice viggen vido overall its of SF (AJSF) 37 and SH (AJSH) 37 recce viggens but the rockets worked in the same way in all variants)

 

Dat black smoke though! :joystick:

[mattebubben]

Dat black smoke though! :joystick:

 

Yea they look pretty amazing when they launch xD

 

And one of those rocket barrages aught to be pretty devestating.

 

A maximum of 4 rocket pods each of whom holding 6 135mm rockets.

 

Thats 24 135mm rockets.

 

And all of them being delivered in one short volley.

Edited February 18, 2016 by mattebubben

[Grundar]

Well, as others have mentioned the entire design of the Viggen centered around a doctrine that pretty much allowed no loitering over the target area at all. :-) It was always designed for "quick get in and dump all you have on the target area and get out asap" type missions. :P

 

Very much seemed to have been deliberately designed as strike aircraft - in and out, rearm and back into the conflict. As the Cold War going hot was envisioned to be masses of Soviet armour and weaponry flooding across Europe.

 

Getting them on a boat is much easier than letting them land and establish a foothold - Can get men off sinking boats easy enough (well of the options it's "easiest") but not a tank or aircraft (or other equipment).

[WinterH]

Well, if we do get BK-90 Mjölner (which I really hope a lot), against many target types, kill per sortie expectation can go up pretty decently.

 

I imagine it could do some damage against parked aircraft, convoys / columns, artillery positions, and perhaps even fixed air defense positions that aren't too heavy.

 

72 light or 24 heavy bomblets per weapon, and if I am to thrust google translation of Swedish wikipedia, it seems some bomblets were also able to seek and attack armor like CBU-105 bomblets do. Number of submunitions may not exactly be very impressive but, long distance gliding and INS coordinate targeting abilities of BK-90 would make it a very interesting piece to utilize in sim. In fact, while it may not be a SEAD aircraft for not having dedicated SEAD pods or anti radiation missiles, with 4 Mjölnirs, it may well be a pretty decent DEAD aircraft if it knows where the air defense site is :).

[Cobra847]

Yes on BK-90.

Yes on zoomed AGM-65's

[CoBlue]

How was Viggen guided to a road-strip in bad visibility?

I don't see any ADF(NDB) in the cockpit. I suppose some navaid was used at road-strips, but then they had to be portable or?

I remember reading about a Viggen road-strip landing in very bad visibility.

[Skjold]

Yes on BK-90.

Yes on zoomed AGM-65's

 

Thanks alot for clarifying Cobra! :thumbup:

[Dahlbeck]

It is possible that they were "talked down" by a radar operator (using a specifically designed mobile radar unit, not normal ATC), much like the "ball" on an aircraft carrier.

[renhanxue]

How was Viggen guided to a road-strip in bad visibility?

I don't see any ADF(NDB) in the cockpit. I suppose some navaid was used at road-strips, but then they had to be portable or?

I remember reading about a Viggen road-strip landing in very bad visibility.

There's a system called TILS (Taktiskt InstrumentLandningsSystem) which presents directions (both turn and glideslope) on the HUD. See SFI part 2 chapter 1, page 154 and on. The manual mentions that if the desired landing strip isn't preprogrammed in the computer, you have to enter the runway heading into the computer yourself, which hints that the TILS beacons were portable.

Edited February 19, 2016 by renhanxue

[BravoYankee4]

It isn't really fair to compare the Viggen and A-10 doctrines. The first one was built to counterattack a full Soviet invasion. An invasion probably supported by fighters and very capable A-A units. So yes, go in low, hit hard, haul ass and get back home to reload and do it again, at another location from another direction.

 

Flying an A-10 over the desert fighting a low tech army with AK-47's and some manpads is another story. Then you can linger in the area waiting for the next stupid to pop up and meet the 72 virgins as an instant result... :music_whistling:

[renhanxue]

Also, the AJ 37 wasn't designed to operate alone at all. The usual tactical unit was four aircraft, so you'd usually split the payloads up and not all aircraft carried countermeasures.

Edited February 19, 2016 by renhanxue

[Dozer_4]

On the cockpit shots a few pages back I don´t see anything that looks like a RWR.

Wasn´t there any?

 

And another question - did they have some sort of NVG´s?