DCS: Me 262 Discussion (Development on hold currently)

[iFoxRomeo]

To quote xvii-Dietrich

On 3/31/2021 at 10:41 AM, xvii-Dietrich said:

But I do not not want to let the 262 be dismissed without adding at least one voice, no matter how small, for its inclusion in DCS World.

Yeah, I voiced my concerns a few times already. This shall be the last time on the causa Schwalbe/Sturmvogel. I hope I can withstand the tempation, when someone posts something I consider as nonsense.

 

This an IMHO with many "I"s, to whom it may concern:

 

I supported ED for many years now. I enjoyed the modules. But not without some anger from time to time. (In 2015 I had a server running, but stopped it after a year, as there were quirks and problems I didn't want to deal with anymore)
It's not a complete list but some examples:

Be it that modules are close to being abandonned (in my subjective perception: F-86, more on that is "planned" from my side for it's subsection).

Modules not completed for a long long time (Yak-52).

Stuff promised for many years but not delivered (guess what module I'm looking at now).

Long long lasting bugs...

 

DCS improved considerably during that time and it would be dishonest to not mention this. Looking at 1.5(and earlier) and forward to 2.7, sh**, that's a huge difference. (And as DCS improved I want to try again hosting a server, there are not enough servers yet)

 

I supported ED because I like the Sandbox idea, the thorough simulation of aircraft and I thought it was a good move from ED to take over the Kickstarter campaign from Luthier. I think we would have only the P-51 and Fw190-D9 today if Luthier hadn't kickstarted the WWII endeavour in DCS.

 

It's many many small bits and pieces that make me not want to buy modules anymore. (Well, a bit too late for me to skip the Hind presale, ED caught me in a moment of weakness)

It severely depends on what is announced after the Mossie.
Of course that won't hurt ED, if I don't buy modules. But for me personally, I have to draw a line somewhere. And perhaps there are others who think similarily about this.

 

I don't "buy" the won't sell well argument regarding the 262.

In 2014 the 262 was deemed profitable when the takeover happened. Now in 2021 with a significantly increased DCS playerbase it is not considered profitable anymore? Really? Come on!

Nick did make it clear what he likes, and what is not so interesting for him.
"...and then we had to go on to a bit of German stuff and whatnot" were his words in the Grimreapers interview @15:10

Better listen from 14:20 - 16:35 to hear his admiration and you will understand my objection.

 

Nineline has to do his job as Community-Manager and I wouldn't want to change places with him.
He has to bring the community and ED/Nick together. No easy job.

 

November 2015:

On 11/23/2015 at 4:25 PM, NineLine said:

Just realized we didnt have a discussion thread for this bird, who is looking forward to a ED PFM experience with this one... I know I am.

Now in 2021 he has to somehow sell his bosses opinion.

I'm not angry with him.

 

With the pace that ED puts out WWII warbirds, it will take ages till we get a decent set of aircraft, playable and AI, ships and ground assets for the PTO. The Western Europe 1944-1945 scenery showed that. Now we do have 3rd parties supporting that, but it doesn't seem to really accelerate it.
I'm glad M3 brings the Corsair, but its announcement was 5 years ago, and we still don't have it available. The P-38? Veeeery far away

 

I'm afraid the ETO will suffer significantly from this decision. It is still not finished. E.g. Where's the Fw-190F-8? Ju88 as a torpedo-only bomber??? C-47? Paratroopers? V1?

And it offers room for additional aircraft like the Tempest Mk.V or (god forbid this heresy, lol) a Gloster Meteor(F.3 please).

I don't want DCS to become a Duxford Collection Simulator. I enjoyed Duxford when I visited the airshow, but that's not what I want to "play" on PC.

 

I won't buy any ED-made modules for the PTO before the Me262 is released. I don't support Nick's decision on this case.

Yes...ED is now shaking in fear...muahaha

 

Fox

 

p.s.

@HiromachiSure, I like sarcasm.

[Rosebud47]

I would like to see the Me262 playing the same role within DCS as in the historical context of Wold War 2: None!

[MrExplosion]

11 minutes ago, - Voight - said:

I would like to see the Me262 playing the same role within DCS as in the historical context of Wold War 2: None!

 

What an uneducated and uncalled for comment.

[Mogster]

1 hour ago, - Voight - said:

I would like to see the Me262 playing the same role within DCS as in the historical context of Wold War 2: None!

The 262 was operational in spring 1944, just over a 1000 were built with 200 being available at any one time.
 

Those numbers are quite similar to the numbers of available Spit XIV and Tempest V, neither of which were available at a squadron level in large numbers either. The Tempest V and Spit XIV also became operational in early 1944, similarly to the 262. If the 262 didn’t have a great impact on the war due to its limited availability then surely we should rule out the Tempest and Spit XIV for similar reasons?

 

I have some sympathy for ED, I suspect the 262 would be difficult to model accurately for several reasons. It wasn’t some never operational prototype though, it was as available as the RAF types I mentioned.

[NineLine]

4 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

Now in 2021 he has to somehow sell his bosses opinion.

Well to be fair to me, I still want the 262 done in full DCS glory. That has not changed, and back then, I never thought about WWII Pacific Carrier Ops as being anything close to real, not back in 2015, so I am torn now, the 262 is all her glory, with all her pluses and minuses, or WWII Pacific Carrier Ops, both sound like a lot of destroyed virtual aircraft. 

[rkk01]

2 hours ago, - Voight - said:

I would like to see the Me262 playing the same role within DCS as in the historical context of Wold War 2: None!

Oh dear... I’m sure we’re all aviation enthusiasts here, so that post is very, very odd

 

If the 262 had never even fired in anger, it still has to be seen as the catalyst that changed aviation and rendered every Mustang, Spitfire, Hellcat and Corsair obsolete

Add in the 500+ kills and the concern amongst Allied Command, then yes very relevant.  It may not have changed the outcome of that war, but it changed all the subsequent ones

 

[Rosebud47]

@Mogster any other kind of rarely used aircraft like a Spit MK XIV or Tempest V wasn´t into discussion.

 

Also I guess, most readers would have got my point, that there wasn´t a significant presence of the ME262 in WW2. There are theories around, that Hitler might have won the war, if he didn´t decided to financially support Dönitz and the submarine warfare instead of Göring´s Luftwaffe, which developed much faster improvements on their warmachine to succeed over the enemy. Anyways, wrong decision by luck for us.

Also, I don´t feel the need to glorify technical improvements out of the historical perspective, but fully understand using the fascination, which comes with such technical outstanding achievements to be transported into flight simulations.

This fascination for an aircraft like the ME262 surely brings value to Videogames like WarThunder or Battlefield or IL2 ( sorry, I don´t know more ... ), but DCS brings a fascination to me, which is of a kind, all the other Games/Flight Sims could not have provided to me so far.

To me it is far more interesting and fascinating to see and experience how accurate simulated warbirds of each party, independendly from each other developed, could have compete with each other in real life. So far none of any flightsim beside DCS did made this experience believable to me - in other it always felt balanced to entertain in multiplayer. I guess the difference makes a very deep research in every aspect of a single aircraft and on top a person who could prove the flight characteristics and every detail in the simulation to be true or at least acceptable in terms of accuracy. 

Now I think, it is hard to collect enough data of the ME262 or probably impossible ( with regard to find a living person, who has actually flown a ME262 ) to reach the accuracy like we got with the present models in DCS. Or let´s put it the other way: why should we prefer a module, which needs to be ´balanced´by the lack of real knowledge, when we could have a module, the CEO of ED has flown by his own hands. Really, I guess, when ED is going to make the Hellcat, it will be for sure one of the most accurate one in the hangar. And that accuracy provides the real fun, at least to me, by fighting in the simulation against a different technical approach from a different part of the world with different characteristics in which one could believe to reflect the real fights in world war 2.  

I don´t know, if ED could provide this accuracy for a ME262, but I know they do it for other aircrafts in the sim and am sure they could do it much faster ( counting in years ) for any other aircraft than an aircraft of which only around 1000 existed 77 years ago and of which most, if not all, were destroyed during the war.

Don´t want to diminishing someone to be a fan of this aircraft, surely would be nice to have a ME262 in the hangar, just saying, spending time in the development into a more valuable model of a WW2 aircraft with regard to its accurate simulation, might be more rewarding and more fun in the end, than some balanced stuff.   

Edited April 6, 2021 by - Voight -

[rkk01]

I’d actually expect the opposite, although how much documentation has survived will always be an issue...

 

The level of interest shown in the 262 must make it one of the most tested and evaluated aircraft of its era. The active duty Luftwaffe pilots and subsequent Allied test pilots may not still be around for first hand accounts, but there would surely have been a lot of evaluation data and reports

[Mogster]

There are several flying replicas with modern engines. You’d think they’d give some window on the flight character of the originals.

[iFoxRomeo]

1 hour ago, - Voight - said:

Now I think, it is hard to collect enough data of the ME262 or probably impossible ( with regard to find a living person, who has actually flown a ME262 ) to reach the accuracy like we got with the present models in DCS.

As Mogster said, there are a few replicas, rebuilt by original plans. And there is one project with original Jumos, but I think it didn't fly yet. Engine test-runs were made.

 

The Messerschmitt-Museum in Germany in Manching operates 109s and a 262 Replika. So your point is not really valid. Other than that, there is no K4 or D9 in flying condition, yet ED managed to create both. ED doesn't necessarily need a flying example. They need data as much as possible. 

 

1 hour ago, - Voight - said:

To me it is far more interesting and fascinating to see and experience how accurate simulated warbirds of each party, independendly from each other developed, could have compete with each other in real life

That cries for Me262 vs. Meteor...

 

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

Well to be fair to me, I still want the 262 done in full DCS glory. That has not changed, and back then, I never thought about WWII Pacific Carrier Ops as being anything close to real, not back in 2015, so I am torn now, the 262 is all her glory, with all her pluses and minuses, or WWII Pacific Carrier Ops, both sound like a lot of destroyed virtual aircraft. 

Well I think we both agree here that we want both, the 262 and Pacific. I just like to have the sequence of incarnation in DCS, we thought it would have until just recently...

 

Are you in contact with the Messerschmitt-Museum in Manching?

 

 

So much to my intention to remain silent here...

 

Fox

[Mogster]

Yes the Meteor would be good also. 

[iFoxRomeo]

On 4/6/2021 at 11:28 PM, - Voight - said:

Now I think, it is hard to collect enough data of the ME262 or probably impossible ( with regard to find a living person, who has actually flown a ME262 ) to reach the accuracy like we got with the present models in DCS

 

 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/flyingheritage/videos/672188696929984/

After opening this link, immediately klick on the video, then you don't need to log into facebook

 

@NineLine I think the Warbird Community is well connected, so Nick probably knows the guys behind this project and Steve Hinton. Just in case ED picks up the 262 one day again. They certainly can give feedback to Jumo behaviour, Flight manuals etc.

And it should by a nice trip for you to this museum over a weekend, some day in the future.

 

Fox

Edited April 8, 2021 by iFoxRomeo
wrong Hinton

[Rosebud47]

@iFoxRomeo very nice videos of this bird. While the Me262 is definitely an icon in the flight sim world, I would personally still prefer a prop driven warbird to be produced next after the Mossie. In anyway I trust in ED to start a new project for an interesting warbird, which fits well into the simulation. The Mossie for sure will be an instant buy for me, as I would expect it to provide a different experience in BFM and combat, while still being competitive against the BF109 and the FW-190. Surely not as same competitive like the Mustang, but different in its own ways. Maybe some day, we´ll see the ME262 in DCS, but the WW2 scenarios are very much in the beginning and decisions, which modules to add at this very early stage, need to be found carefully, to keep it interesting and enjoyable for everybody and everybodies preferences, like study sim or multiplayer. 

It can´t be appreciated enough, that ED and Nineline is as well interested in the opinions of the user base to find their next project. Well, in case of the ME262 the interest in the user base opinion comes out of the circumstances of the kickstarter promotion, but they do care, what should not be treated as natural in the decision finding process.
My personal favourites for next warbird would be the P-38 or the JU-88. The JU-88 or maybe a Heinkel or a multirole and multiseated Messerschmidt Fighter/Bomber would be very interesting as a counterpart of the Axis for the Mossie, which fits that role for the Allies.

Still think, the Hellcat will be an excellent module, because of the knowledge ED already owns, but the biggest concern is, that a Pacific Scenarion won´t come to live on the servers, as long as there is no full fidelity Japanese Fighter to compete with. Magnitude surely would need another 5 years to give birth to a A6M Zero, as they plan to develop the crusader after the corsair, as far as I know. Developing the Hellcat without a Japanese counterpart in parallel might result in oblivion for the idea of a pacific WW2 scenario and a WW2 variation of the upcoming Marianas map.
Hope they find a the right decision for their next project and am happily looking forward for the Mossie now.      

[Etirion]

I just hope the FHM is going to be able to continue on the 262 with the Jumo 004s, they've had to close because of covid and there have been no updates since. A terrible place for a museum to be in.

If it matters I'd also like to add my voice to the "yes, i'd gladly take a 262 over a Hellcat".

Edited April 8, 2021 by Etirion

[Mogster]

11 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

 

 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/flyingheritage/videos/672188696929984/

After opening this link, immediately klick on the video, then you don't need to log into facebook

 

@NineLine I think the Warbird Community is well connected, so Nick probably knows the guys behind this project and Steve Hinton. Just in case ED picks up the 262 one day again. They certainly can give feedback to Jumo behaviour, Flight manuals etc.

And it should by a nice trip for you to this museum over a weekend, some day in the future.

 

Fox

 

Incredible that’s the real sound of Jumo 004s again. Hopefully we’ll hear a Napier Sabre again sometime.

[rkk01]

Videos above make you realise that the Hellcat is just another 2-a-penny R-2800 mass production fighter... 

[rkk01]

1 hour ago, Mogster said:

Incredible that’s the real sound of Jumo 004s again. Hopefully we’ll hear a Napier Sabre again sometime.

 

Even finding video with audio seems tricky...

 

and if the Sabre works out, raise the stakes for a Peregrine...!

[Mogster]

12 hours ago, rkk01 said:

Videos above make you realise that the Hellcat is just another 2-a-penny R-2800 mass production fighter... 

 

The F6F may not be exotic but it has excellent historic references in English. Even better there are loads of flyable and static examples that are very original. I can see that makes it attractive to ED as a DCS aircraft.

[rkk01]

20 minutes ago, Mogster said:

 

The F6F may not be exotic but it has excellent historic references in English. Even better there are loads of flyable and static examples that are very original. I can see that makes it attractive to ED as a DCS aircraft.

Agreed, and quite divisive to pitch the F6F and 262 against each other...

 

in an ideal world ED would do both - Hellcat on a timescale to fit WW2 Marianas and 262 on a slower burn with R&D in the background.

 

I’d happily buy both, and an F4F / Martlet

[cmeliak]

Gents,

 

I would like to share this photo album with you. 

It was wonderful experience to see this bird flying. Engines was replaced so no original sound, but  ...

 

PHOTOS

 

 

[MrExplosion]

18 April 1941 -- first flight of Me-262

 

Happy belated 80th bday  

[Zius]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:13 PM, NineLine said:

Well to be fair to me, I still want the 262 done in full DCS glory. That has not changed, and back then, I never thought about WWII Pacific Carrier Ops as being anything close to real, not back in 2015, so I am torn now, the 262 is all her glory, with all her pluses and minuses, or WWII Pacific Carrier Ops, both sound like a lot of destroyed virtual aircraft. 

 

Sorry, but that's hardly a fair comparison.

 

The Me262 is just one module, and, given that nearly all the technology is already available in DCS (jet engine, aluminium structure, hydraulic system, electrical system, etc.), it seems not even a very complicated module.

 

WW2 Carrier Ops on the other hand, needs at least one module, a new map, a new working carrier, completely new asset pack including aircraft, naval vessels, hopefully also commercial and traditional vessels, ground units etc. etc. All in all, it's a huge amount of work.

 

Of all modules that seem to be in the pipeline, the Me262 is the one which interests me the most.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Zius

[Snapage]

I don't know what to think. I want the pacific, WW2 carrier battles in DCS would be amaizing. At the same time we have a late war European theatre that is not far from what could be considered completion. With the Mosquito coming I think the germans need some sort of decent ground attack aircraft to add a little variety. The 262 is not particularly ground attack but it is iconic, popular and would add some much needd variety to the German European theatre.

 

At the rate the European theatre has been developed I am a little concerned when I hear that ED wants to do Pacific AND the BOB? I have to wonder how that will be achieved and how long that will take?

[Cunctator]

+1

 

Fw190 F8 and G8 variants would be the low hanging fruits to give the German side a decent ground attack capability.  The Fw190G series would be especially fitting for the maps we have. 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

7 hours ago, Cunctator said:

+1

 

Fw190 F8 and G8 variants would be the low hanging fruits to give the German side a decent ground attack capability.  The Fw190G series would be especially fitting for the maps we have. 

And that's why both of them are coming together with A8, as ED already said.

 

S!