Venezuela bought the SU 30

[TucksonSonny]

LOL, no :D open your eyes :D Horse=F-16, Mule=Su-30.

 

The Su-30 outclasses the F-16 in about everything...

I DO not understand your joke.

It (Su-30) even is more expensive (the only true criterium used by the local F-22 nut-rider of this board).

 

The Su-30 is considered as a Class A fighter while the F-16 (MLA/A/F) is only class B.

This is common NATO source. Wake up man.

 

:music_whistling:

[Shaman]

The Su-30 is considered as a Class A fighter while the F-16 (MLA/A/F) is only class B.

This is common NATO source. Wake up man.

 

:music_whistling:

You most forgive Pilotasso his st*cough*ty *cough* lack of sense here, because he's looking at both planes from gamer's point of view. You won't change his mind. But is it worth it?

[D-Scythe]

I'm pretty sure we can say somebody is wrong without calling them stupid. But that's just me.

 

BTW, what on earth is a Class A/B/X figther? Never heard of NATO using such a system before.

[Shaman]

I'm pretty sure we can say somebody is wrong without calling them stupid. But that's just me.

Not me, though. I was raised in blocks full of hooligans. If you like it more, I'll call it then "lack of sense" ;)

[TucksonSonny]

 

BTW, what on earth is a Class A/B/X figther? Never heard of NATO using such a system before.

 

I am not sure if it is still being used but I can remember that air-superiority fighters were considered as class A fighters (F-15/Mig-31 Fox/Su-27) Maximum range, speed, radar strength and weapon capability were the most important criteria.

It was rather an US-airforce classification. The idea was to avoid contact with class A fighters in battle if possible if you were only Class B.

[Pilotasso]

The Su-30 outclasses the F-16 in about everything...

I DO not understand your joke.

It (Su-30) even is more expensive (the only true criterium used by the local F-22 nut-rider of this board).

 

The Su-30 is considered as a Class A fighter while the F-16 (MLA/A/F) is only class B.

This is common NATO source. Wake up man.

 

:music_whistling:

Not accurate see below

 

You most forgive Pilotasso his st*cough*ty *cough* lack of sense here, because he's looking at both planes from gamer's point of view. You won't change his mind. But is it worth it?

 

LOL dude. Well yeah, the SU-30 is a very good machine however it isnt better in all areas. 6 on 6 AMRAAM capability and the larger RCS of the flanker lets alot of room to play. Im going to be honest with you. I do not know enough of the R-77 perfomance neither the flankers capability to fire multiple targets. The latest word is that the MKI version can engage 4. I cannot draw conclusions in the AA scenario but one thing, Im 90% sure is that the flanker wouldnt be safe against a falcon, not even a decisive edge on the flankers part. It might have better combat persistence but then again it also might not survive long enough or it might equaly wipe the falcon.

Another aspect is that we dont know how good is the flankers base on electronic intelligence aplied to its onboard EW kit. I do know the west has been traditionaly better informed on this front, specialy when the russian export aircraft uses components from the west.

 

In the venezuelan case This is a bit of a moot point since their usage of military aircraft has been to wipe out agressive rebel attacks on towns. I dont see where the SU-30 is going to play a part on that. Must be to provoke the US administration I think.

 

Hence my remark swiching from horse to mule because those pilots will be sitting quiet on their bunks with those guerrilas uncheked from the air, when they were being targeted by the F-16's litening LGB-12 combo before. I just dont picture the flanker firing an AS-12 kedge agaisnt them. :D

[GGTharos]

They have LGBs too you know, and targeting pods.

 

Anyway, in air to air combat, the 16 does /not/ want to be in a BVR situation with F-15/Su-27 ... I have repeatedly read statements from Viper pilots that they'll own a 15 up close, but OMFGOZORZ NO BVR PLZ!!!!

 

The Su-27's radar is the same class effectively, and even a little more powerful. The newer flankers, with updated radars are -not- to be messed with by anything that is a pure product of the Fighter Mafia in BVR ;)

[Cobra360]

Flankers can be fitted with the Litening II pod aswell. The MKI has been seen with them alot lately.

[Pilotasso]

They have LGBs too you know, and targeting pods.

 

Anyway, in air to air combat, the 16 does /not/ want to be in a BVR situation with F-15/Su-27 ... I have repeatedly read statements from Viper pilots that they'll own a 15 up close, but OMFGOZORZ NO BVR PLZ!!!!

 

The Su-27's radar is the same class effectively, and even a little more powerful. The newer flankers, with updated radars are -not- to be messed with by anything that is a pure product of the Fighter Mafia in BVR ;)

 

As I see it, theres no technlogical advantage of the F-15 or the Su-30 that prevents the falcon from detecting them and shooting AMRAAM. Unless Im not aware the F-15 or the Flankers capability to electronicaly prevent the F-16 from locking onto them outside the AMRAAM's range (probably the space the F-16 would need to realisticaly prepare a fight). Neither will the F-15 engage the 16 without giving warning to it. The only fighter that can do this is the F-22.

 

The difference is that the F-15 can go out there sweep for targets with its radar in a large area far from base while the falcon has to be used as a point defense fighter.

However once they meet, both will be aware of the other, and unless and again I ask if the F-15 can deny and render the F-16 radar of litle use (I would like to know if this is possible), the F-15 has no way to fire and be safe from being fired upon itself. The technology is the same, weapons the same, unless the F-16 radar isnt matrixed down to 10 miles I see a window to get the F-15 a good adrenaline rush. ;)

 

If you pick up F-15's engaged with a price equivalent amount of F-16's I would have no trouble to take on the eagles at all. Its possible that with the right skills on both sides that the F-16's would force the eagles to get a dodge to fight another day.

 

The only planes I consider totaly "do not mess with them" are the F-22, Eurofighter and the JSF. I dont believe in BVR flying fortresses and combat has proven this point.

 

Of course who has F-15's usualy has a whole plethora of other infra structures to prevent the eagle from goin to fight on equal terms with a light fighter. The same cant be said with the Su-30 since it can be sold just about to any country with the will to piss off global players but not wealthy (or smart) enough to buy everything else needed to take advantage of the bigger fighter's potential. Otherwise you can send reliable proven multirole fighters and be sure the best pilots will win.

 

Worried about venezuela 30 or 40 Su-30's? Let the country next to it buy 50-60 Block 52's and lets see if the flanker owner will laugh at the falcon fleet. ;)

[GGTharos]

The basics, as I've been led to understand by the pilots themselves:

 

F-15's like to fly high.

Falcons don't.

 

F-15's thus get better BVR Range

Falcons don't.

 

 

F-15's can detect F-16's much earlier than the other way around, and set up their tactics and winning situation.

 

Now sub Su-27 for F-15.

 

That's the reality of BVR combat. You don't to 'see' how it works out. It just does ;)

The F-15 will happily bust up more F-16's than there's F-15's in BVR.

 

Now substitute MiG-21, 29, 23 for F-16.

 

 

Apparently, even the old F-4's radar will out-perform the F-16's radar once locked on a target.

 

Make a light weight fighter for dogfighting, you -end up- with a lightweight fighter for dogfighting.

[D-Scythe]

The difference is that the F-15 can go out there sweep for targets in a large area far from base while the falcon has to be used as a point defense fighter.

However once they meet, both will be aware of the other, and unless and again I ask if the F-15 can deny and render the F-16 radar of litle use (I would like to know if this is possible), the F-15 has no way to fire and be safe from being fired upon itself.

 

If you pick up F-15's engaged with a price equivalent amount of F-16's I would have no trouble to take on the eagles at all. Its possible that with the right skills on both sides that the F-16's would force the eagles to get a dodge to fight another day.

 

The only planes I consider totaly "do not mess with them" are the F-22, Eurofighter and the JSF. I dont believe in BVR flying fortresses and combat has proven this point.

 

That's where you're wrong. Firstly, I'm pretty sure if the F-15Cs were still being produced, they'd be cheaper than the latest F-16C Block 50/60s. Secondly, the F-15C's more powerful radar (and higher speed) allows it to pick up the F-16 first, which gives it a distinct advantage in combat involving multiple friendlies/enemies. They'd have more time to: ID their targets, sort through their targets, build a picture of the engagement, set up their attack, ensure mutual support, execute more complicated tactics, etc.

 

Usually, IMO, the victor of a BVR engagement is usually decided before even the first missile is fired.

 

Anyway, in air to air combat, the 16 does /not/ want to be in a BVR situation with F-15/Su-27 ... I have repeatedly read statements from Viper pilots that they'll own a 15 up close, but OMFGOZORZ NO BVR PLZ!!!!

 

And I've heard equally convincing statements from F-15 pilots that the Eagle can hold its own :thumbup: They might not cut turns as well, but so long as the Eagle pilots are max performing their jets, the performance difference is not significant enough to give an inferior pilot in a Viper a victory over an Eagle.

 

In any case, with AIM-9X, Python 5, R-73, etc. everyone should be dying rather quickly nowadays, so dogfighting is to be avoided even if it's still practiced.

[Pilotasso]

Actualy to use those IR thrust vectoring missiles you need to to have failed to engage in BVR and have gotten into real trouble. Thrust vectoring supermanueverability only works at extremely short ranges, while the mottor is still burning, like 4-5 seconds?

Then translate that into traveling distance under heavy drag conditions. usualy 2-3 miles.

 

That's where you're wrong. Firstly, I'm pretty sure if the F-15Cs were still being produced, they'd be cheaper than the latest F-16C Block 50/60s.

 

hmm hmm, I think in order to make your point you have abused it a litle bit. Because the block 60 is radicaly different from block 50 along with its price, secondly because the F-16 has never nor will cost as much as an f-15C. For the simple reason the F-15 is a twin engined heavy fighter, nor would it be produced in higher numbers than the falcon to lower its price as down as that.

The japanese screwed it up with the F-2 falcon variant on steroids, and blew the cost per unit 4 times the cost of an F-16 and its still doesnt exceeded the eagle.

 

I would like to know where you got the info to say what you said with such conviction.

[GGTharos]

On the point of TV missiles ... the TV is there only for the initial turn to target. After that, TV is not really necessary. And yes, you do lose much range on high OBA launches.

[D-Scythe]

Actualy to use those IR thrust vectoring missiles you need to to have failed to engage in BVR and have gotten into real trouble. Thrust vectoring supermanueverability only works at extremely short ranges, while the mottor is still burning, like 4-5 seconds?

Then translate that into traveling distance under heavy drag conditions. usualy 2-3 miles.

 

Okay? So how does that stop them from killing things while in a dogfight? Dogfights happen at close ranges last time I checked.

 

hmm hmm, I think in order to make your point you have abused it a litle bit. Because the block 60 is radicaly different from block 50 along with its price, secondly because the F-16 has never nor will cost as much as an f-15C. For the simple reason the F-15 is a twin engined heavy fighter, nor would it be produced in higher numbers than the falcon to lower its price as down as that.

The japanese screwed it up with the F-2 falcon variant on steroids, and blew the cost per unit 4 times the cost of an F-16 and its still doesnt exceeded the eagle.

 

I would like to know where you got the info to say what you said with such conviction.

 

Um, last time I checked, the F-15C was a $30 million dollar fighter in the late 1980s. The F-15E was about $50 million. Now the F-15C isn't being produced anymore, but a new F-15Es cost around $70-80 million a copy I think? Anyway, I don't see how an F-15C produced now would cost more than $50-60 million, which puts it below the price range of the latest F-16s.

[RedBear]

.........and what is this guy (chavez) Going to do with the flankers , invade Colombia? to create his vision of La Gran Republica Bolivariana ?

:noexpression:

 

 

 

hey man you know!!!! thats right that is a question i am doing myself

 

He belive is the reecarnation of Simon Bolivar. jeje saludo bolivariano

[Ardillita]

. Neither will the F-15 engage the 16 without giving warning to it. The only fighter that can do this is the F-22.

 

 

 

Sorry, do you mean a f22 can engage without warning from BVR ???? Is this posible? I don´t think so, I have ever heard nor found informatio about any new kind of magic radar that can do this. As I read in other posts, the f22 anged many F15s, but they had a warning, they didn´t see the f22, but they had a warning , am I wrong?

[GGTharos]

Yes, you're wrong. The F22 features an LPI radar which may not trigger an RWR (although the RWR could be reprogrammed to deal with it eventually)

 

In some cases the F22 may not need to turn its radar on at all (but the same goes for F-15 and F-16)

[Pilotasso]

Okay? So how does that stop them from killing things while in a dogfight? Dogfights happen at close ranges last time I checked.

 

Didnt say it would stop getting kills in dogfight. I merely said that it wont be the death ray as it is often portrayed. I Ommited another fact. That 4rth gen aircraft have tremendous kinetic capability with engines that provide twice the thrust of current similar sized engines. This means that those missiles are still dodgeable by out running them. More or less the same way AIM-9's fall short of its target in this game even if the seeker does its job flawessly. ;) You realy have to get into close, I mean CLOSE!

 

Um, last time I checked, the F-15C was a $30 million dollar fighter in the late 1980s. The F-15E was about $50 million. Now the F-15C isn't being produced anymore, but a new F-15Es cost around $70-80 million a copy I think? Anyway, I don't see how an F-15C produced now would cost more than $50-60 million, which puts it below the price range of the latest F-16s.

 

50 million for an F-16? wich one? the block 60? because the F-16 we are having with the MLU bringing them to block 50 standard had cost us 6 million per airframe plus 8 for the kit. Thats 14 million apiece. And man, you dont want to compare the two types in maintenance costs... :) Otherwise everybody would have the Eagle.

[GGTharos]

No, I'm pretty sure you're not going to be outrunning the 9X from 1nm distance ...

[Pilotasso]

BTW D-Scythe, the F-15K sold to south Korea costs 90 million each.

[D-Scythe]

BTW D-Scythe, the F-15K sold to south Korea costs 90 million each.

 

So? The F-15K is more expensive than the F-15E, which is already almost 70% more expensive than the F-15C. Don't know what you're trying to get at here.

 

And I think UAE's and Israeli F-16C Block 60s and F-16I's sold for around $80 million each. We are comparing to the current F-15C to the current F-16C now, are we not (flyway price of course, maintenance excluded)? An F-15C may have some fancy air-to-air stuff, but the fact is that F-16Cs have grown to the point that people are packing so many things into it that it's price has skyrocketed in the past decade.

 

Even if the basic Block 40/50 series F-16C is cheaper than the F-15C, it wouldn't be by much. There is no way anyone can get 3 F-16Cs for the price of one Eagle anymore.

[Weta43]

Ardillita : "but they had a warning , am I wrong?"

 

GG "Yes, you're wrong. The F22 features an LPI radar which may not trigger an RWR (although the RWR could be reprogrammed to deal with it eventually)"

 

So "may not" doesn't make him wrong, only possibly wrong. Especially as if it is possible, these were the planes most likely to have had that re-programming done.

 

Is there more to the story, or were you (not referring specifically to these excercises &) being more general & saying that F-22 may not always give a RWR warning, depending on how the device is configured ?

[Force_Feedback]

50 million for an F-16? wich one? the block 60? because the F-16 we are having with the MLU bringing them to block 50 standard had cost us 6 million per airframe plus 8 for the kit. Thats 14 million apiece. And man, you dont want to compare the two types in maintenance costs... :) Otherwise everybody would have the Eagle.

 

Your country was in some military aid programm in the nineties, and you could buy planes from the US for very low prices, now the cold war is over (stop thinking Russia would do something in the near 50 years, they just can't, even in Putin wanted to conquer the world), and there is no way LM is going to sell weapons at a discount price to foreign countries anymore.

 

Also, the prices may have been changed due to inflation and higher hourly costs for assembly.

[nscode]

You can get a used MiG-29M for neet 10 M$ on the Web :D

 

But sorry, no weapons included :(

[Dmut]

enough, discussion went hot and pointless.

closed.