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Cruising is painful..


WildBillKelsoe
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There are no secret updates, but not everything makes it on a changelog.

 

Yes, but I meant, while flying the very same version...

 

I have the latest release 1.2.16, and the last time I had it installed I did break a couple of wings in the heat of the dogfight. Now the only way is really forcing it, because otherwise my control inputs are adapted to the sensitivity of the model, and work without any fear of breaking a wing, something I used to find a real PITA...

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I cruise at 0,9 up to 1,0 ATA. At such settings I am even forced to input nose up trim.

 

The aircraft is a charm to fly at such cruise power settings, and keeps a good speed, at all altitudes up to around 6,000 feet.

 

I have ( again ) been using it online on several sessions and I am yet to experience what was so common before, even flying the same version - a wing breaking. What changed ? Simply skill... That's how I have to interpret it, because I do not believe secret updates are fed into the releases, and when they are they're announced, like with the upcoming v1.5

 

So, let's simply wait for the upcoming ( major ) update and re-evaluate the quality of this already very plausible simulation of what I believe must be a 109...

The only thing I must ask every time I read "... this is ok like it is...!"!

Is there any logical reason why a engineer should not allow the Pilot to trim the plane at a speed higher 390 kph?

Not one person ever could give me a logical explanation for this.

I don't get it that this behavior we have right now is based on a test from Russians, which for sure knew as much from this plane as the first Russian rocket engineers from the German rockets.

One of the "best" WWII fighter planes ever, is at the same time the only WWII plane which can't be trimmed out for level flight at "normal" speeds. 500 kph with the wind in the back is nothing for a WWII Bird at cruise speed but a K-4 can only cruise at 390 kph… Oo

By all "gods of logic"... why the hell should the Germans should do this?

Why did they make this bird a pain in the arse for a high speed dive?

No dives on bombers or fighters with high speed?

You can NOT aim well at high speeds with a not well trimmed plane. The German "Handbook for fighter pilots" explains this very well.

All BF109 before the K version were very well designed and ALL could be trimmed to hell to level flight at nearly each speed.

So if all logic “say” and all BF109 before "say" you can and must trim your plane at each speed well to aim well, then a single Russian document "tell" us that the Germans engineers suddenly become dumb?

Really?

I can’t believe this and I would really like to hear the logical explanation for the actually behavior of the K-4!

:huh:


Edited by Nedum

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Is there any logical reason why a engineer should not allow the Pilot to trim the plane at a speed higher 390 kph?
There are and we discussed it before (but the I want it I want it I want it guys just don't want to listen it, and you know WHO I'm talking about :) ). The aircraft is quite dangerous trimmed to very high speed, it would be possible to trim it beyond recovery in a high speed dive, not just because the trim but because the compressibility creating a crossed controls effect where the nose tends to go down at very high speeds, at those speeds also stick forces are so high any pilot would be able to recovery the plane and airframe collapse chances are very high. That's clearly stated in some German papers, a dive recovery and behaviour paper, some stick forces in flight graphs, etc. The Russian blamed paper is just the only we have with clear trim-speed-CoG information, no German paper treating the subject in any late 109 variant is known to the day.

 

About the question Yo-yo in person asked last Duxford the EADS pilot Klaus Plasa just to clarify the point after wild discussions around here, and he stated the Bf109 (and he flies a couple of versions, G4, G6 and G10) can't be trimmed beyond 450Km/H. So look!! That's what we already have in the module (and I personally can trim at almost 500Km/H IAS) without asking the EADS pilots :smilewink:. Just the conspiranoic guys "don't want to believe".

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Nedum,

 

I'm just at a very early stage of my learning process about ww2 aircraft. I'm interested in learning about their flight characteristics because that is fundamental to feed my other - and main - interest - flight dynamics modeling.

 

I haven't read much, and Googling for any info is always dangerous because one really has to filter the sources, and there is so much text available that it becomes difficult sometimes, but then I try to use plain good sense, and my experience from RL flying...

 

One aspect that made me believe there was something not quite right with pitch in the K4, and with the way the stabilator produces it's effects when trimmed, is that I can find a good deal of positive travel settings in the trim wheel that I never use. The settings range from -2 to +6 ( if my memory isn't playing it's tricks... ), and I seldom can set the trim wheel at more than 0,5, maybe 1,0, while most of the time I have to set it at 0.0 ( neutral ), -1,0 or even -2,0

( note: I don't know if my sign convention is correct, but the idea is giving "-" to indicate nose heavy... )

 

So, I am one of those who believe that there shouldn't be such a huge "tail-heavy" feel on this aircraft, but!, I learn from reading that it results from an evolution of the previous models, in many aspects, including the adjustment of the control surfaces and trim mechanisms, longer tail and higher vertical fin and rudder, etc..., together with a powerful engine, specially when used with the MW-50, as well as like stated by Ala13 in the previous post, to avoid some unwanted effects at higher speeds when diving, So.... I admit that while the K4 had it's stabilator mounted using the same mechanisms used on previous models production lines, it wasn't necessarily meant to be used in the same way ( ? ).

 

The forces were light in pitch across a considerable range, so, given pilot's still had to step considerably on the left rudder at cruise speeds in order to fly coordinated, the lightness of the control stick at such speeds wasn't a factor, and it could easily be held a little fwd without representing any sort of effort to the pilot.

 

Yo-Yo has posted some graphics where this pitch down was actually required.

 

And now that I know the K4 got some FDM fine tuning for 1.5, I'd rather wait and try it when the upgrade becomes available, and then post my thoughts again.

 

Above all, and I include myself in the group, we persistently forget the whole idea behind the release of this modules in beta stage - they're exactly that - BETA! We keep complaining and referring to their supposed limitations and bugs as if we were dealing with the final release. As far as I recall the P51d got a long way before it reached wht it is today, and across that process most of the quirks got ironed out. The Fw190 is already a great module too, so... why can't we wait until we try the K4 in 1.5 ?


Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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One aspect that made me believe there was something not quite right with pitch in the K4, and with the way the stabilator produces it's effects when trimmed, is that I can find a good deal of positive travel settings in the trim wheel that I never use. The settings range from -2 to +6 ( if my memory isn't playing it's tricks... ), and I seldom can set the trim wheel at more than 0,5, maybe 1,0, while most of the time I have to set it at 0.0 ( neutral ), -1,0 or even -2,0

( note: I don't know if my sign convention is correct, but the idea is giving "-" to indicate nose heavy... )

You're right mate. I myself thought first time I flew her there was something wrong (very early Beta). Positive trim is used only in landing configuration, if you use full flaps you need quite a lot positive trim.

 

Anyway, I still wonder why that awkward trim setting, -2 +6, may be some engineering reason, and I wonder because a modern Airbus using the same system also have -2 +6 setting... :shocking: So there have to be some design reason behind. Any Airbus engineer around here? :lol:

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Sometimes we over think stuff... the Bf 109K-4 is a weapon not a passenger plane, its built to fight not take joy rides, the fact its tuned to do so makes sense, throwing her a high speed dive and notice how much you appreciate the nose up attitude, I love this plane, and I am a Spitfire man, I am not sure how I am going to switch when the Spit comes out :)

 

There are and we discussed it before (but the I want it I want it I want it guys just don't want to listen it, and you know WHO I'm talking about :) ). The aircraft is quite dangerous trimmed to very high speed, it would be possible to trim it beyond recovery in a high speed dive, not just because the trim but because the compressibility creating a crossed controls effect where the nose tends to go down at very high speeds, at those speeds also stick forces are so high any pilot would be able to recovery the plane and airframe collapse chances very high. That's clearly stated in some German papers, a dive recovery and behaviour paper, some stick forces in flight graphs, etc. The Russian blamed paper is just the only we have with clear trim-speed-CoG information, no German paper treating the subject in any late 109 variant is known to the day.

 

About the question Yo-yo in person asked last Duxford the EADS pilot Klaus Plasa just to clarify the point after wild discussions around here, and he stated the Bf109 (and he flies a couple of versions, G4, G6 and G10) can't be trimmed beyond 450Km/H. So look!! That's what we already have in the module (and I personally can trim at almost 500Km/H IAS) without asking the EADS pilots :smilewink:. Just the conspiranoic guys "don't want to believe".

 

S!

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About the question Yo-yo in person asked last Duxford the EADS pilot Klaus Plasa just to clarify the point after wild discussions around here, and he stated the Bf109 (and he flies a couple of versions, G4, G6 and G10) can't be trimmed beyond 450Km/H. So look!! That's what we already have in the module (and I personally can trim at almost 500Km/H IAS) without asking the EADS pilots :smilewink:. Just the conspiranoic guys "don't want to believe".

 

S!

 

That is false.. and you know it, .

.. due to three main reason.

1/- 450km/h IAS, is 600km/h TAS at 6.000 m, and 743Km/h TAS at 10.000 m. in standart atmosphere. Is not a valid data.

..or in that case, the Bf-109K4 was capable to trim at 740Km/h TAS at 10.000m

 

2/- The Real life Bf-109 pilots take as reference for cruising the manifold pressure indicatión ATA, and engine RPM, ..not the airspeed.

 

3/- If that interview is true, Where was published that interview??. ..


Edited by III/JG52_Otto_+
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That is false.. and you know it, .

.. due to three main reason.

1/- 450km/h IAS, is 600km/h TAS at 6.000 m, and 743Km/h TAS at 10.000 m. in standart atmosphere. Is not a valid data.

..or in that case, the Bf-109K4 was capable to trim at 740Km/h TAS at 10.000m

 

2/- The Real life Bf-109 pilots take as reference for cruising the manifold pressure indicatión ATA, and engine RPM, ..not the airspeed.

 

3/- If that interview is true, Where was published that interview??. ..

 

I Agree

 

Regards

 

Supongo

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12043136_10204097380748435_9170393842010693693_n.jpg?oh=c7b2b00ac8d92f01fa3008bc04cd1f4a&oe=56A4BF2D
Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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12043136_10204097380748435_9170393842010693693_n.jpg?oh=c7b2b00ac8d92f01fa3008bc04cd1f4a&oe=56A4BF2D
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Superb modelling.

 

 

Спасибо за смеется :smilewink:.

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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i agree, excellent explanatión!!

Yo-Yo is this your knowledge in aerodynamics? :music_whistling:

Nope, is yours :megalol:. He got it superbly.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Yo-Yo is this your knowledge in aerodynamics?

 

Never mind his knowledge, because _your_ knowledge of manners is zero. If I was a mod here, you'd have been banned permanently ages ago already.

 

Just goes to show how patient our mods are really...

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Never mind his knowledge, because _your_ knowledge of manners is zero. If I was a mod here, you'd have been banned permanently ages ago already.

 

Just goes to show how patient our mods are really...

 

+1

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Never mind his knowledge, because _your_ knowledge of manners is zero. If I was a mod here, you'd have been banned permanently ages ago already.

 

Just goes to show how patient our mods are really...

True :(.

 

 

Back on topic, anybody noticed now cruising isn't any more painful? I can hands off quite easily now.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Another example of you not quite understanding what Yo-Yo has posted ;)
:lol::lol::lol: I can certify he can't read Cyrillic.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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12043136_10204097380748435_9170393842010693693_n.jpg?oh=c7b2b00ac8d92f01fa3008bc04cd1f4a&oe=56A4BF2D

 

Another example of you not quite understanding what Yo-Yo has posted ;)

 

The Defense rests.

 

Sorry.. I can not read russian, martian, greek, and some other rare lenguajes.

 

You can also publish the video with the interview to Klaus Plasa, or Erich Brunotte, saying the Bf-109 have NOT ZERO trim in any flight condition, and I will become to silent as the grave.:music_whistling:

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Sorry.. I can not read russian, martian, greek, and some other rare lenguajes.

 

You can also publish the video with the interview to Klaus Plasa, or Erich Brunotte, saying the Bf-109 have NOT ZERO trim in any flight condition, and I will become to silent as the grave.:music_whistling:

 

It's already been answered, please look over the forum rules, there is a bit about bring up issues that have already been addressed...

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