ILS Flight Director Influenced by Course Selector

[Joni]

Hi ED! First let me say thanks for such a magnific platform of simulation.

 

I am a naval aviator in my country and I just acquired the A-10C module and it is a near perfect simulation.

 

One of the things I encountered that does not work like in real life is the Flight Director during ILS approaches. In real life flight directors are not influenced by the HSI course selector since an ILS trasnmitter only emits one signal in an unique direction and therefore both the HSI and flight director track that one alone.

 

The HSI works fine, it is not influenced by the course selector, but the Flight Director is and makes landings in IMC very difficult for some airports. It is true that if you select the right course adjusted by magnetic drift it'll provide accurate flight directions but the only documents are for visual approaches and some of them have headings that are adjusted by terrain factors.

 

 

This is just a basic system and it will be great if it could work as in real life.

 

I hope you can fix this in the near future.

 

 

Thanks for the support.

[Rongor]

The A-10C doesn't feature a flight director.

 

You probably refer to the yellow pitch and roll steering bars in the ADI.

Read pages 112 and 113 in the A-10C flight manual to understand what exactly they indicate.

 

Let me add on a side note, that a FD should of course react to a course setting, as it is its job to guide you on that course. But again, this is no FD.

[Joni]

Dude, the guy is talking about the real plane....... you just posted the games manual. Thanks piston, hope this is corrected too

Edited August 11, 2015 by JohnnyQ

[PFunk1606688187]

From the manual.

 

7. Bank Steering Bar. This vertical bar indicates deviation from the desired HSI bearing.

This bar can also be used to determine if the aircraft is flying towards a tracked TISL target

or a selected VHF/FM ADF transmitter. If the bar is centered, you are flying to the desired

destination; if it is off to either side, you will need to bank the aircraft towards the direction

the bar is positioned from center.

 

EDIT. Also, reviewing a different manual I shouldn't have also indicates no mention of whether it is or isn't acting as it should in game. It only instructs to set the HSI to the published localizer course.

Edited August 11, 2015 by P*Funk

[Joni]

Hi guys,

 

Let's focus on the real plane. The manual is just made for a simulation.

 

The "adi" bars is a flight director and should not be influenced by the course selector based on what I explained before. Even if the builders wanted it to they couldnt because it tracks one signal. VORs and TACANs work like you say it works, but not ILS.

 

 

Rongor, please read an IFR tutorial to understand what exactly they indicate. I'll be more than happy to help you go through it if you like me to, just send me a PM.

 

 

Thanks guys.

[DirtyFret]

I am quite confused with this system and the (claimed) lack of realism in its modelling. Mostly because if I remember correctly this simulation was commisioned/used by US air national guard for training. If indeed this is/was the case I personally find it very hard to believe (but not impossible) that this basic system is modelled totally wrong. So unless a real A-10 pilot/engineer/crew chief or someone from ED shares his/hers knoweledge of it being wrong I'll keep believing the modelling is correct. Just my personal non-professional opinion. No-mad pls? :unsure:

 

Regarding the FD or lack thereof ; the (real) A10-A manual mentions of a FDC so it would be logical that the newer C-variant would have one also.

[Joni]

Non taken bro, we are here to chat and be happy.

 

But from a builder perspective it is not possible to be influenced.

 

ED already said that it works correctly, so this would probably never be fixed since ED thinks it is properly modelled.

 

It is possible though that the A-10C has some very old FDC systems installed and needs assistence from the knob. But it is unlikely. Even a 1970 flight director works with the ILS signal (which is just one) and not with the course.

 

 

But I can be wrong, I'm not saying I can't, just a professional insight from my career's experience.

[Flagrum]

No steering bars in ILS mode until in range of the localizer, then displaying steering information to capture the localizer (from T.O. 1A-10C-1).

[Joni]

Hey guys, I was just about to make a document where all the correct magnetic courses are listed for each ILS so we can have accurate FD while it works like it does now. But I then imagined that someone probably already did it. Does someone know one?

[Rongor]

Piston85, you find those courses in your DCS installation. They are published on the approach charts in the DCSWorld\Doc\Charts\DCS_VAD_Charts_A10C.pdf

Hope this helps.

 

I still don't see why you need a FD to do a proper ILS approach, especially since you say you are familiar with IFR.

 

Also I still don't see why we should assume the A-10 bears a Flight Director, at least not one we would expect to behave like FD in civilian aircraft.

 

Regardless if there is a FD or not in the real A-10C, there certainly is none in DCS A-10C.

[Joni]

Those charts are for VFR and the headings do not represent those for ILS approaches... some of them matches but some others dont.

[Rongor]

Great. So it is a start. Good luck!

[PFunk1606688187]

Hey guys, I was just about to make a document where all the correct magnetic courses are listed for each ILS so we can have accurate FD while it works like it does now. But I then imagined that someone probably already did it. Does someone know one?

 

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=218

 

Feel free to negative rep me for not linking this fast enough. :music_whistling:

[Joni]

Those charts are not useful, I was talking about something that's taken from the sim. Thanks for the intention.

[PFunk1606688187]

Those are calibrated for the sim with the A-10C. They're used to make ILS approaches using the ILS charts. I dunno what you expect from raw data because those use the correct raw data to generate them. Every field has the correct runway heading that aligns with the localiser.

 

Isn't that what you wanted? They get used weekly for ILS approaches with no issues in the 476th.

Edited August 12, 2015 by P*Funk

[Joni]

Nope, like I said there are some that dont work. Take Vaziani for example...

[PFunk1606688187]

Interesting, since Vaziani is the one that we use most regularly.

[Joni]

Interesting, since Vaziani is the one that we use most regularly.

 

Piston is correct. Besides if you are not going to help then please stop being ironic. Your attitude is very poor P*Funk

[PFunk1606688187]

I'm not being ironic. If the command steering bars don't work then it beats me.

 

So much hostility here.

[DUSTY]

Nope, like I said there are some that dont work. Take Vaziani for example...

 

Qualify your statement - why doesn't it work? I'm an IFR rated pilot and these procedures have worked for me in the sim.

 

I'm not being ironic. If the command steering bars don't work then it beats me.

 

So much hostility here.

 

Agreed! Some of the negative and patronizing rhetoric used by multiple members in the Bugs forum is extremely disappointing. :doh:

[boomerang10]

The 476 has done an outstanding job of doing unofficial plates that aren't available for most users otherwise.

 

I will say that there appears to be something broken with the approaches at Vaziani.

 

Image below shows general NAV tuning and course selection:

 

Specifically, for the TACAN 32, TCN appears accurate for azimuth and DME.

 

However, the ILS appears to be off. Not sure if this is an ED issue or with the plates.

Edited August 12, 2015 by boomerang10

[DUSTY]

Thanks for the comprehensive post with screens Boomerang. I'm going to have a look at this when I get some time because I remember shooting the ILS/DME into Vaz many times in the past.

[DirtyFret]

Good post boomerang, there is nothing quite like empirical evidence/research when it comes to problem solving.:thumbup:

 

 

My questions and thoughts:

 

Did you happen to try the same for RWY 13 which oddly has the same ILS freq?

 

Why is Vaziani plate showing the same ILS freq for both RWY13 AND 31?

- the other two airfields that have dual runway ILS (Mineralnye-Vody and Tbilisi-Lochini) have different freq's for each side.

 

I would postulate that if indeed the ILS aprroach for rwy 13 works at that freq perhaps there is a typo on the Vaziani plate duplicating the ILS freq of rwy 13 to 31 where in reality (simulationality?:D) there is no ILS for rwy 31. This would explain why some ppl remember that it works fine and some that it doesn't.

 

Confirmed? Plausible? Myth?

[Tucano_uy]

How the flight director worked with the ILS changed in the past.

I didn't read the whole thread, but this http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=70045 may offer some background.

[Joni]

I didnt say that the Vaziani ILS was not working and I apologize if my way wasn't nice to you, but there are some people who just want to irritate rather than help. I said that the frequency in the VAD chart for rwy 31 is not correct (due the final course of Tibilisi VFR flights are directed to the right). What you need to do is look at the course that the ME has in the ILS arrow and check the course, then you need to substract 6 degrees to account for the magnetic drift that DCS models. The result is different (I dont remember the exact figure right now... sorry) from the VAD chart of course, and this not only happens with Vaziani. That is why I said the the VAD charts are for... well... Visual...

 

 

As far as I know, all ILS in DCS works perfect but contrary to the real system you need to select the correct course in the HSI.