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IR Missiles Keeps Missing


ekg
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How does one get a good kill ratio with IR missiles? Almost every R-73 that I've shot has been dodged by the AI with flares. It's kind of neat to see the missile being diverted by flares but at the same time it makes a waste of all my shots. I haven't had this issue with the R-77s.

 

Do I have to get behind my opponent to get a better hit rate with them?

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when i get a kill with a R73 its because the enemy doesnt know I'm there... if they are flaring then they are obviously highly aware of your missile. I'm thinking this might be an issue of approach as opposed to launch procedure.

 

How do you approach your enemy? Are you using radar to lock?

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@ekg..

 

wait a second - you're saying heaters eat flares?!?

 

NOOOOOOO, i just simply don't believe it

 

shot after shot?

 

oh wait, even when the bandit is IN AFTERBURNER the flares decoy heaters? geez.. those flares really work!!

 

 

 

SOMEtimes, what we "think" is reality, what our minds tell us "should" be the case...... isn't necessarily the truth

 

everybody has opinions about air combat - often very strong opinions

 

empirical evidence often runs counter to our beliefs

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one question, is the uncage option simulated in the f15? i cant access the manual right now.

 

 

thanks.

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@ekg..

 

wait a second - you're saying heaters eat flares?!?

 

NOOOOOOO, i just simply don't believe it

 

shot after shot?

 

oh wait, even when the bandit is IN AFTERBURNER the flares decoy heaters? geez.. those flares really work!!

 

 

 

SOMEtimes, what we "think" is reality, what our minds tell us "should" be the case...... isn't necessarily the truth

 

everybody has opinions about air combat - often very strong opinions

 

empirical evidence often runs counter to our beliefs

 

yes? when I fire the missile goes to my target. But then he does an evasive manuever with flares and the missile turns the opposite way towards the flares. R73 from a Su27

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yes? when I fire the missile goes to my target. But then he does an evasive manuever with flares and the missile turns the opposite way towards the flares. R73 from a Su27

 

 

IR missiles usually only used when you are on his 6. Even an A10 can out maneuver an IR missile coming from the front or side. Get behind, get close and then you may have a chance with IR.

 

Firing head on is a waste of that missile.

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There's a sweet spot with the Su-27 and R-73 (If your behind the bad guy, assuming your using lead pursuit) when your missile will walk right pass the flares. You just have to have your nose at the right angle in relation to the bandit and be close enough. If you just shoot regardless of his position, you'll miss most of the time because flares are pretty effective in DCS.

 

What I do is plan for a gun kill and if then I get an opportunity or get lazy lol I'll use the heaters. That usually works for me and my R-73s hit a fair amount of times.

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just don't fire your heat seekers as soon as you have a lock, get closer to the target - try to be closer than you ever been - and only then fire the r-73.

Having a heat seeker with a rather long range launch ability doesn't make it very effective at those ranges - a maneuvering target using flares will almost surely avoid it. The reasons are mostly found in missiles kinematics, which are things that many folks, even DCS old timers, never take into consideration.

 

Anyway, just keep in mind that with short range HSM (r-60, r-73 and aim-9 in DCS) the closer you are to the target the better the pK.

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yes? when I fire the missile goes to my target. But then he does an evasive manuever with flares and the missile turns the opposite way towards the flares. R73 from a Su27

 

 

you're not understanding me

 

the. missiles. are. working. realistically.

 

 

 

your "complaint" is without grounds

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If I see an IR launch, I'm not worried about the missile because IR missiles are relatively easy to defeat with some good throttle control (i.e. slam it to idle ^.^) and flares, if you know they're coming. What I'm more worried about, in that situation, is that aircraft getting in a position to gun me.

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you're not understanding me

 

the. missiles. are. working. realistically.

 

 

 

your "complaint" is without grounds

 

So pointing your nose toward the missile and rolling like an idiot while spamming flares or chaff is a realistic maneuver?


Edited by karambiatos
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you're not understanding me

 

the. missiles. are. working. realistically.

 

 

 

your "complaint" is without grounds

 

I think you are not understanding him.

 

He simply asks why his IR missiles keep missing. He never talks about the missiles behaving unrealistic. Maybe if you explain him why, he gets a better understanding about when and how to fire them instead of being so harsh to him.

 

To come back to your question i have to say i don't know. If i fly the SU-27 it's against human players. If i lock them up on close range they start to flare pre-emptive so i just wait a little. Or when head on i just shoot the missile knowing it will probably miss. But it might set me up for a good position because he still has to react defensively. But yes you might want to shoot the missile from the AI his rear aspect when super close. Not at the missiles max range.

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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So as far as IR missile usage goes would the following be the only scenarios:

 

1. Sneak up behind enemy and when within range (closer is better) fire

2. Use during dogfight behind enemy

3. Use just prior to dogfight to get advantage (enemy has to evade)

 

Any others?

 

Radar guided missiles seem to perform better in terms of getting the target. Would there be any guidelines for using those? I know in the training there are two ranges, 1 is max and the other is where missile will be able to reach the target (not necessarily hit it though) 100%. So I would guess to get within the safe range to fire. Since it's passive how does one keep locked without getting shot down? It's much harder to evade enemy fire and stay locked on.

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I am far from an expert on the subject; however, my understanding is that quite a few things can influence whether an IR missile gets a kill or not.

 

The missile is not that agile, especially after the fuel is burned off and it is losing energy. Therefore the aspect ratio of the target can matter quite a lot, as can the maneuvering of the enemy. Where they are in relation to you, which direction they are travelling, distance, etc all matter greatly.

 

Next, the heater signature has to be adequate and I would assume needs to remain adequate through the missiles flight. Ground clutter, the sun, flares, etc can all have a negative influence on the missiles ability to track.

 

Then there are problems with maneuvering at the moment of weapon release. This is tied to the first point. If you are in a high G turn when you release the weapon it just may not be able to track just like if you have a target crossing in front of you it may not be able to track either.

 

These are certainly not all of the important factors, but your chances of getting a kill go up when you can get in good position to the enemy, behind the enemy, within range (the closer you are the more energy the missile has when it gets close), with out confusing heat signatures when possible, and not in a really high G maneuver. I've had quite a few missiles completely miss a target when I'm not patient, don't wait for good tone, fire too far away with good tone, don't do my job of maneuvering to good position before the shot, etc.

 

I hope this helps!

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Radar guided missiles seem to perform better in terms of getting the target. Would there be any guidelines for using those? I know in the training there are two ranges, 1 is max and the other is where missile will be able to reach the target (not necessarily hit it though) 100%. So I would guess to get within the safe range to fire. Since it's passive how does one keep locked without getting shot down? It's much harder to evade enemy fire and stay locked on.

 

The first range is max range and is technically the maximum kill range on a compliant target, or a target that does not attempt to evade the missile. At that range, all the target has to do to evade is wait for it to get somewhat close and out of energy and make some minor maneuvers.

 

The second range (sometimes there are more range indications but the one you'd like to get within) is the "Turn and Run" range. In theory, you can fire at this range and they can turn around and push full throttle and they can't outrun your missile. They can evade it; however. Within that range is your highest probability of kill with radar missiles.

 

You are correct, it is difficult to maneuver and stay locked on because you have to have your radar hitting the target with radiation AND getting that signal back to your receiver to track the target. When you point your plane in such a way that the radar cone doesn't hit the target you can't track them. The trick, I think, is to maintain the best situational awareness that you can and learn to use the radar system well.

 

I've seen some videos that show good ways of maintaining and aggressive nature, keeping targets on your radar as much as possible, and not getting shot. It still takes a lot of practice; however (practice that I don't have). In most cases it seems that if you understand the limitations of your system and the limitations of the enemy system, know where the enemy (or enemies) is (are), and stay patient and stick to your plan, then you can find more success. You can wait for their initial launch, let the missile come on while maneuvering enough to make it miss, possibly fire a missile at the enemy to make them attempt to evade, and try to get closer to get a higher PK shot. This is tough for me because my tendency is to fire too early or wait too long to evade.

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