F-15 or Su-27 for a newbie

[pr1malr8ge]

Ha, well I've been flying the flanker some more and I can tell you that it is one finiky bird. I grasp the basic concept but trying to convert speed and altitude on the fly is proving difficult.

 

The one thing I can say that is awesome and crap at the same time would be the SPO.. I like the fact that it can give me a borderline range of threat mainly impending missile. But the lack of what is illuminating me is a bit screwball.

 

So with that I would say the f15 is the better choice to learn Bcm and ACM then move to the flanker.

[Stuge]

As a new starter i would choose F-15 as well. But i have the same opinion as Stuge that you should try the SU-27 and the other fighters as well. SO you know how to defeat them. And you will learn to defeat other F-15's more easily as well.

And despite everybody say's the SU-27 is better in WVR and close in i think its a little exaggerated. I will merge with a SU-27 any day. Especially when the F-15 is low on fuel and you don't forget to drop your fuel tanks. But merging with another F-15 is a pain in the b** in my personal opinion. But watch out when merging with a SU-27.. those off boresight shots are beautiful and very deadly. But just keep your hands on the flares and hands of the burners at the right time and it should be manageable. Most of the time you get shot down by a SU-27 is because you don't see them. Not because you merged with them. Unless fighting Stuge :p

 

Hehee.. It is true that if you catch a flanker "with its pants down", meaning low, slow (~500km/h), and heavy (say 6-9 tons of fuel), it is actually quite bad at a merge. Flanker pilot must be ready for the merge.. fast enough, and not too heavy, then eagle gets shot down ~99% of the time ;)

[Bandit.]

i use reverse logic here. perhaps its me because im crazy but, i learned the flanker first because it is harder. specially with the pfm (now you have toa ctually know how to fly).

 

if you learn how to handle the flanker and stand your ground a later transition to the f15 is gonna be a lot easier.

[Erdem]

The Eagle is easy mode compared to the Flanker so I guess that makes it a better beginner plane.

[ShuRugal]

lol, no active missiles and no external fuel tanks, the OP knows what it means.

 

no drop tanks is not really a hinderance... Flanker carriers 9.4 metric tons internally, eagle carries 6.1. Eagle drop-tank holds 1.8... The eagle needs 2 bags to match the flanker, and flies substantially worse with them fitted.

[Joni]

no drop tanks is not really a hinderance... Flanker carriers 9.4 metric tons internally, eagle carries 6.1. Eagle drop-tank holds 1.8... The eagle needs 2 bags to match the flanker, and flies substantially worse with them fitted.

 

mmmm dont know about the figures but it is a known disadvantage of the flanker as I heard and read so many times

[ShuRugal]

mmmm dont know about the figures but it is a known disadvantage of the flanker as I heard and read so many times

 

"Some guy said the flanker sucks hard not having drop tanks, so i'll just assume that's correct and not find out for myself or do any research into it, and tell people who have that they are wrong because some other guy said so"

[esb77]

"Some guy said the flanker sucks hard not having drop tanks, so i'll just assume that's correct and not find out for myself or do any research into it, and tell people who have that they are wrong because some other guy said so"

 

The beauty of the drop tanks is that you can lighten the plane by a ton or two in just a few seconds. That's a lot faster than going to AB and using fuel dump, which are the flanker's only options if it gets into a fight overweight on fuel.

 

 

Either system works fine if employed properly, but the Soviet design tends to put a heavier load of planning and error free piloting responsibility on the pilot. If you know how far and how fast you're going to go before you engage, then the inability to dump fuel weight rapidly isn't a problem. You just better not be wrong when you make that estimation and fuel up the plane.

 

With the Eagle your margin of error with that same estimation is close to two tons. You still want to be right on the first guess, but it's a bit more forgiving if you're not.

[Joni]

"Some guy said the flanker sucks hard not having drop tanks, so i'll just assume that's correct and not find out for myself or do any research into it, and tell people who have that they are wrong because some other guy said so"

 

Although your attitude was the one of a 5 years old boy by mocking someone you dont even know, I will respond so you can see the difference.

 

 

The F-15C Eagle has more than one thousand miles range on top of the Flanker's. And of course it is a very poor performer fully fueled and it cannot get rid of the excess fast enough.

 

 

Bye little kid. :joystick:

[NineLine]

Ok guys, if you cant discuss without making it personal you might need to take a break from this thread, lets keep it mature and on topic. Thanks.

[Steel Jaw]

Keep in mind that both jets are mainly BVR jets so dogfighting comparisons are a little pointless. If you are using good tactics, you should be shooting opponents from outside WVR. F15C is a passable dogfighter, though will get spanked by a F16 and may maybe the F18, but the Su27 is no dogfighter IMHO, too heavy with all of that internal fuel.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Mower

[Joni]

until we dont see a full simulation of these two aircrafts we wont know much more about them than we already discussed. The reason is because without a real and clickable cockpit we dont know how the pilot workload is in relation to the other one.

 

For now, I think the OP got what he was looking for as he stated.

[Stuge]

the Su27 is no dogfighter IMHO, too heavy with all of that internal fuel.

 

You're not serious are you :) it's heavy when fully loaded and fueled but when a bit lighter it certainly spanks any other aircraft that dares dogfight it..

[*Rage*]

but the Su27 is no dogfighter IMHO.

 

Lolwut!?

[blkspade]

until we dont see a full simulation of these two aircrafts we wont know much more about them than we already discussed. The reason is because without a real and clickable cockpit we dont know how the pilot workload is in relation to the other one.

 

For now, I think the OP got what he was looking for as he stated.

 

Actually the info on the HOTAS functionality of the F-15C is pretty easy to get (-1). Literally everything you are likely to need after the gears and flaps are up is on the stick. Save the Master Arm switch. You can get basically 1:1 mapping with a Warthog stick. Similar info is probably available in the real Su27 manual (if you know Russian). Much could be extrapolated from that info.

[Joni]

Actually the info on the HOTAS functionality of the F-15C is pretty easy to get (-1). Literally everything you are likely to need after the gears and flaps are up is on the stick. Save the Master Arm switch. You can get basically 1:1 mapping with a Warthog stick. Similar info is probably available in the real Su27 manual (if you know Russian). Much could be extrapolated from that info.

 

Hotas is to reduce workload not to make it 0 (-1), so I reaffirm my last statement, we need first to get full simulation to compare.

[blkspade]

Keep in mind that both jets are mainly BVR jets so dogfighting comparisons are a little pointless. If you are using good tactics, you should be shooting opponents from outside WVR. F15C is a passable dogfighter, though will get spanked by a F16 and may maybe the F18, but the Su27 is no dogfighter IMHO, too heavy with all of that internal fuel.

 

In sim, the effective weapons ranges result in many engagements devolving into WVR.

[Steel Jaw]

when a bit lighter it certainly spanks any other aircraft that dares dogfight it..

 

LOL, hardly so, sir. A F16 will kill it in a dogfight, all other factors being equal. Mind you, neither one of us being pilots and there aint no modeled F16 in DSCW andso no way to test it.

[Joni]

As a naval pilot, I can second what Mower said. F-15C is great, but not without flaws. There is a reason why the F-16 is much more used these days.

[Frostie]

As a naval pilot, I can second what Mower said. F-15C is great, but not without flaws. There is a reason why the F-16 is much more used these days.

 

Because it's cheaper and more versatile, F-15 is superior in most regimes of A2A, BVR, energy, climbrate, altitude, range, payload, Radar, ECM, ECCM everything except low wvr but not by a large margin.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Frostie

[blkspade]

Hotas is to reduce workload not to make it 0 (-1), so I reaffirm my last statement, we need first to get full simulation to compare.

 

Who said anything about 0 workload. It would have to be AI operated to be anywhere near 0, obviously. Beside asking a SME, the devs are basically still going to consult each planes respective manuals. Same as any of us that have been sim pilots for any decent length of time could to extrapolate differences in workload.

 

Hell the basic differences in the avionics now (which are basically accurate except up to whats missing) already favors the F-15. RWR is placed higher up in the cockpit and displays info in a non-cryptic format. NCTR on the VSD. Time to pitbull and time to intercept counters on the HUD. If the change in the Russian aircraft's AAQ function (pressing the lock button) was changed to match the RL counterpart, then that is yet another thing to slow them down. I think the most complicated thing you might ever have to do in a a split second in a clickable F-15 is jettison tanks. That is assuming people don't keep the jettison function mapped.

[Wizard_03]

LOL, hardly so, sir. A F16 will kill it in a dogfight, all other factors being equal. Mind you, neither one of us being pilots and there aint no modeled F16 in DSCW andso no way to test it.

 

That's apples to oranges, cause the Mig-29 can smoke the F-16 and frequently does. They're both lightweight fighters. The 27 is god in WVR against fighters of equal size and weight. Nothing that big (i.e. F-15) can match the AOA the only way to fight it, is with higher energy moves (yo yos ect), but try and play it's game in the F-15 and you'll die..every time.

 

Against the F-16 in a gun fight you'd have a point but then again Aim-9 is no R-73 but if you talking straight Winchester the mig-21 can almost keep up with the 16 let alone the 29. apples to oranges.

[Joni]

holy long thread batman!

[NineLine]

holy long thread batman!

 

More like holy off topic thread... so topic: F-15 or Su-27 for a newbie?

[Joni]

the OP will get the f15 as stated before, looks like the thread is done