How do I land...

[xaoslaad]

I'm not sure if anyone has done anything like this, but hopefully it can help some people if not. I know there are often questions about how do I land X, Y, or Z aircraft.

 

Youtube videos are good and all, but often people want to see where is the throttle set, what are the flaps set too, are the air brakes extended, what did gauge X say, etc. So I've gone and created a short track for each aircraft that demonstrates getting it down on the ground in one piece. I hardly claim that each of these landings is perfect as there are occasional small bounces, lofting down the runway a bit too long after flaring, etc.

 

What is common about them all though is that the aircraft was not damaged while landing, so it should be a decent starting point for people to look around and watch, or even take control and duplicate, and improve upon what is being done to get the thing on the ground.

 

Honestly I mostly just try to watch speed, approach, and the VVI/VSI to set the aircraft down as gentle as possible without forcing it.

 

Controls used were:

Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, TIR 5, Saitek combat pro pedals. I do not have curves set for any aircraft.

 

If any of these look blatantly bad to someone I'm open to constructive criticism on how to improve them. :)

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0vm64JM4bFZVDVEZDRoWmdTVDA/view?usp=sharing

[GGTharos]

My first criticism before I even look at the tracks:

 

You mentioned watching speed, approach (what does that mean?) and VVI/VSI.

 

I see nothing about flying the correct glideslope for the type of approach you want to perform ('standard', 'minimum ground roll') or the AoA you have to fly at (which will take care of the speed, but you should still monitor), or when to start the flare and when to pull power depending on aircraft weight.

[xaoslaad]

Right, ok. I didnt say I was teaching everyone how to land every aircraft in every westher condition with every loadout. Empty aircraft on a simple visual approach.

 

Maybe go read a manual if you want advanced topics. If on the other hand you are having trouble getting a MiG-21 or Fw.109 on the ground maybe take a look at a track for a demonstration.

 

It's already 20+ tracks. Every permutation under the sun would be about 20,000. I love people like you who come at any decent act by anyone in this community with silly comments.

 

Not for you, ok then. Walk away.

[GGTharos]

You don't need every permutation, you just need the correct landing technique for the average case.

[Corbett1403]

I tried to view on my IPAD your tracks with no luck. Could use the App yawc as this gives you the checklist for landing the A10c.

[xaoslaad]

Corbett1403, the tracks are in game trk files. Good idea and suggestion on grabbing a checklist app or something for each aircraft though. That would be a great list if I could find one for each aircraft.

[Wolf Rider]

put the pipper on the patch and adjust throttle to suit, in a nutshell

 

if the pipper is sliding up (towards the far end of the runway), throttle back... if its sliding down (towards the grassy end closest to you), throttle up.

the pipper tells you where your nose is going and then the there is the

 

^

0

v

 

symbol (US planes) if its on the 0, you're doin' fine

 

Landing is inverse to flying - if your flaps are down, throttle controls height (with regard to glide scope) and pitch controls speed ( with regard to landing speed, regarding glide scope)

Edited July 11, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[Holbeach]

My first criticism before I even look at the tracks:

 

You mentioned watching speed, approach (what does that mean?) and VVI/VSI.

 

I see nothing about flying the correct glideslope for the type of approach you want to perform ('standard', 'minimum ground roll') or the AoA you have to fly at (which will take care of the speed, but you should still monitor), or when to start the flare and when to pull power depending on aircraft weight.

 

Why don't you take your head out of your arse and watch at least one of the mans tracks before making inane comments and then you can make an informed comment which might be useful.

 

..

[Wolf Rider]

hey... settle down Holbeach - there's absolutely no need for that kind of response. That's entirely inappropriate

 

 

For the un-initiated, there's a truck load of information supplied in the accompanying Flight Manual, which is well worth the studying - its what (not all) but many (a few) of us have done.. we've studied the manual, we've studied the relevant 'tubes, we've looked also to how the AI go about it.

ya can come high. low or in the middle "on beam", its a balance between throttle/ pitch, vvi , pipper and if available - > Glide Scope indicators

All the information you need, is in the manual, on the 'Tube and AI example

Edited July 11, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[Harpoon]

Watch what you say, people. That goes especially to you, Holbeach. Is there reason for this to become a flamewar in less than 10 posts? :noexpression:

Edited July 11, 2015 by Harpoon

[shagrat]

I'm open to constructive criticism on how to improve them. :)

 

Actually, he explicitly asked for constructive criticism to improve these tracks, right?

So why are people this upset ("...head in the arse") when someone like GGtharos with a lot of experience with DCS trys to improve them?

 

Basically he said: the basics, like approach speed, speed of decent and glideslope angle as base information to even set up a landing approach is missing...

 

I support the intention of a collection of tracks for landings, yet a major factor to mention is the reliability of tracks in DCS. Any update/change to a flight model of the products currently in Beta, as well as dynamic weather, or changes to the Sim environment can mess up a track.

 

A compilation of the basic approach figures, from the manuals to accompany this, with some intro on how to setup an approach would tremendously improve this.

[average_pilot]

What I've found after all these years is that all you need is the correct AoA and a reference to follow a 3 degrees glidepath. With those two things you can safely land any plane in any configuration. It should be taught that way.

[Buzzles]

You want to know the easiest way to land any airplane in DCS?

 

Use a low altitude break approach, as demonstrated here by Sceptre:

 

9JfEvfyvd6U

[Wolf8312]

I am a noob to flight sims or at least this is the first time in my life I have ever gotten into them properly with the warthog and track IR etc so I am certainly no expert. (I actually only like combat flight sims)

 

I spent weeks trying to land a plane on Battle of stalingrad until eventually I realized that the most important thing of all is to get the speed right, for each specific aircraft.

 

I have now succesfully landed many planes on DCS to but I have got to say these big modern military aircrafts are alot easier to land than the planes in BOS. I would imagine this would be true to real life and that modern aircrafts are actually much easier to (is this correct?) land (airbrakes, chutes etc) than the older models but I guess as they are way more complex I was expecting it to be way more difficult to land them. Also of course the same methods and principals I learned in BOS also applied to DCS and practice landing older planes did in fact make me a better so called pilot.

 

With many planes I idle the engine (not with the mig 21!) and bring it down to about 2000 feet (lower with BOS planes), then reduce speed by circling around the airport a bit, deploy flaps and landing gear and then bring the old bird home. This generally works out fine for me. The key thing is getting the correct speed but I also found that its best not to touch down with the throttle engaged and best to float down at the very last second.

 

To be honest I was actually rather dissapointed with how easy it was to land the mig 21 in DCS I guess this is the price we pay for getting the hang of something!

 

It requires a much diffrent higher speed approach than an A10C or one of the BOS planes but with experience of landing the other planes it felt somehow intuitive and I realized that I had to go as slowly as I possibly could while keeping speed up enough to not bellyflop.

 

I am way over selling myself here as I am after all still a very bad pilot who will in the weeks to come mangle many a plane! But what I am getting at is I suppopse the old adage practice makes perfect. You will get a feel for it over time. Of course it really depends what you are flying too.

[Pikey]

Speed is not the accurate answer, as per the first reply, its AOA. There's no guessing or intuition required with an AOA indexer right in your line of sight. There's not many sims that model this in a way that you can most definitely feel the differences between a fully fueled and armed aircraft and an unburdened one but this one does. I don't think it's pointless to point this out - and those that think this is nitpicking have no platform on which to substantiate any argument of fact.

[tacky_taco]

I'm not sure if anyone has done anything like this, but hopefully it can help some people if not. I know there are often questions about how do I land X, Y, or Z aircraft.

 

Youtube videos are good and all, but often people want to see where is the throttle set, what are the flaps set too, are the air brakes extended, what did gauge X say, etc. So I've gone and created a short track for each aircraft that demonstrates getting it down on the ground in one piece. I hardly claim that each of these landings is perfect as there are occasional small bounces, lofting down the runway a bit too long after flaring, etc.

 

What is common about them all though is that the aircraft was not damaged while landing, so it should be a decent starting point for people to look around and watch, or even take control and duplicate, and improve upon what is being done to get the thing on the ground.

 

Honestly I mostly just try to watch speed, approach, and the VVI/VSI to set the aircraft down as gentle as possible without forcing it.

 

Controls used were:

Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, TIR 5, Saitek combat pro pedals. I do not have curves set for any aircraft.

 

If any of these look blatantly bad to someone I'm open to constructive criticism on how to improve them. :)

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0vm64JM4bFZVDVEZDRoWmdTVDA/view?usp=sharing

 

Thanks, good job! I'll save these for when I'm going to learn a new plane

[Holbeach]

Thanks, good job! I'll save these for when I'm going to learn a new plane

 

At last.

 

A man who has actually read the OP post and digested it.

 

Watched his tracks.

 

Gave an informed opinion on that information.

 

Gave thanks for his work.

 

So easy.

 

 

..

[Ironhand]

I'm not sure if anyone has done anything like this, but hopefully it can help some people if not. I know there are often questions about how do I land X, Y, or Z aircraft.

 

Youtube videos are good and all, but often people want to see where is the throttle set, what are the flaps set too, are the air brakes extended, what did gauge X say, etc. So I've gone and created a short track for each aircraft that demonstrates getting it down on the ground in one piece. I hardly claim that each of these landings is perfect as there are occasional small bounces, lofting down the runway a bit too long after flaring, etc.

 

What is common about them all though is that the aircraft was not damaged while landing, so it should be a decent starting point for people to look around and watch, or even take control and duplicate, and improve upon what is being done to get the thing on the ground.

 

Honestly I mostly just try to watch speed, approach, and the VVI/VSI to set the aircraft down as gentle as possible without forcing it.

 

Controls used were:

Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, TIR 5, Saitek combat pro pedals. I do not have curves set for any aircraft.

 

If any of these look blatantly bad to someone I'm open to constructive criticism on how to improve them. :)

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0vm64JM4bFZVDVEZDRoWmdTVDA/view?usp=sharing

First of all, thank you for undertaking this. This should prove helpful for a number of people.

 

Second, please, please, please do not rely on track files to convey the information. While the great benefit of a track file is that it allows you to change views to get different perspectives on the task, it's Achilles heel is that it has no longevity. It will be broken sooner rather than later. A small change in an update can ruin any number of tracks, if it's the right small change. I know this from personal experience. If you want these to be useful well into the future, please convert them to video. You lose the ability to alter your viewpoint but, if you take the time to construct the video well, that is not a great loss.

 

The following only applies to fixed wing aircraft (and, even then, perhaps not all as I have not been in every cockpit). The rotary wing aircraft are, well, just different.

 

There are several good suggestions on what to pay attention to already mentioned in this thread but I'm going to toss in some of my own. A number of the suggestions made assume that you are flying one of the western aircraft with a working HUD and a velocity vector to sit on the runway threshold. What no one has mentioned is where do I start?

 

The trick is to arrive at the Initial Approach Point (the "Return" waypoint) at the right height and speed. The right height doesn't vary (unless the ground is in the way). The right speed depends on the aircraft you're in depending its stall speed. You want to be far enough above that airspeed that banking greater than 45 degrees and/or a momentary distraction, doesn't cause you to fall out of the sky. (If you're in the Su-27, for instance, you hit that point at around 350 km/hr. Like I said, it depends on the aircraft and its stall speed.)

 

So what's the right height to be at when you hit the IAP? About 900-1000 meters (3000-3300 feet) above the runway's threshold. How do you calculate that? Easy because there's no calculation necessary. When you call "Inbound", you are given that bases's current QFE. Dial that into your barometric altimeter. Now any time you check that instrument, you have your height above the runway threshold whether you have a working HUD or not. And that height when you hit the IAP should read between the numbers noted at the top of this paragraph. It's also a good idea to arrive at that point with your gear and landing flaps already extended.

 

From that point, as already noted by others you are paying attention to your decent rate and angle of attack. Unless you have a very good reason for altering it, your decent rate should fall between 3 and 5m/sec (roughly590 and 985 ft/min) as you start down the slope from the IAP to the runway. As you slowly throttle back to slow, you want to cross the outer marker at around 200 meters (660 feet). You should be crossing the inner marker at around 60 meters (200 ft) with your decent rate at the low end of the range mentioned above. If you're not close to those altitudes, call a missed approach and go around. If you're on the numbers, you're almost home free and the O club awaits.

 

The only caveat is that, of course, the QFE is giving you your height above the threshold you're landing on, not the ground beneath you. So the terrain you're over matters. For most bases in the sim, this isn't much of an issue. It can be for some. Landing on RWY 24 at Sochi could be problematic as can the approach I love the best--down the river valley to Sochi's RWY 20.

 

Anyway, Xaoslaad, good effort and perhaps you might find some of this helpful to incorporate as well.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Ironhand

[Yurgon]

That's a very cool idea, xaoslaad. :thumbup:

 

As was mentioned before, tracks are rather unreliable even under good circumstances, so you should be prepared to perform the whole thing again when a new version changes the flight model or other characteristics for any or even all of the aircraft.

 

I've peeked at several of the tracks. One thing I think might see a bit of improvement are the helicopter approaches. With Ka-50 especially, I think it would go a lot smoother if you trimmed more often. As it is, the helicopter is fighting your inputs within its authority, that's why it kind of bounces all over the place when you do trim.

 

Generally speaking, all choppers profit from trimming very often.

 

Personally, with the Ka-50 I prefer the "Western" style of push, maneuver, release trimming (whereas the "Eastern" or "Russian" style would be to perform minute adjustments and then trim and repeat over and over again, even during a maneuver).

 

I took the liberty to record my own Ka-50 track over yours. I'm not happy with the final 5 meters, but until then the approach is okay IMO (though I'm also very much open to suggestions and constructive criticism :thumbup:).

 

Track recorded in DCS World 1.2.16.

Ka-50 Landing Yurgon 02.trk

[shagrat]

At last.

 

A man who has actually read the OP post and digested it.

 

Watched his tracks.

 

Gave an informed opinion on that information.

 

Gave thanks for his work.

 

So easy.

 

 

..

:doh: What exactly was the "informed" part?

 

I may sound rude, but you are aware GGTharos is one of the more "experienced" guys, when it comes to DCS? Ever had a look at the A-10C Manual under Tester Staff?

 

As well xaoslaad isn't the first, nor the last who will try to use track files for training lessons, only to find out that any change to a module, the core system environment, or some dynamic calculated events in the weather system etc. usually mess up tracks when played back later.

Tracks record every single tiny input from your controls, not the actual movement of the aircraft. So if during playback any calculated parameter, like wind direction, airpressure, or a peak in your engine system is calculated differently, your input isn't adjusted to that change.

 

Try to set a mission with dynamic weather on, record a track and play it back a couple of times... this also happens after modules are tweaked, updated etc. Dynamic weather is just the easiest way to notice what happens.

Especially long tracks are unreliable, even with simple weather conditions and not much going on.

 

People actually try to help here...

 

I like his idea, value the effort, and thank him for his hard work, yet it is an utterly bad idea, to use track files and eventually he will end up doing these again, every few updates.

 

As for GGTharos constructive criticism, let's say he has a point...:smartass:

Edited July 12, 2015 by shagrat

[xaoslaad]

That's a very cool idea, xaoslaad. :thumbup:

 

As was mentioned before, tracks are rather unreliable even under good circumstances, so you should be prepared to perform the whole thing again when a new version changes the flight model or other characteristics for any or even all of the aircraft.

 

I've peeked at several of the tracks. One thing I think might see a bit of improvement are the helicopter approaches. With Ka-50 especially, I think it would go a lot smoother if you trimmed more often. As it is, the helicopter is fighting your inputs within its authority, that's why it kind of bounces all over the place when you do trim.

 

Generally speaking, all choppers profit from trimming very often.

 

Personally, with the Ka-50 I prefer the "Western" style of push, maneuver, release trimming (whereas the "Eastern" or "Russian" style would be to perform minute adjustments and then trim and repeat over and over again, even during a maneuver).

 

I took the liberty to record my own Ka-50 track over yours. I'm not happy with the final 5 meters, but until then the approach is okay IMO (though I'm also very much open to suggestions and constructive criticism :thumbup:).

 

Track recorded in DCS World 1.2.16.

 

I agree. I'll probably update some of the Russian aircraft , particularly the MiG-29's and Su-27, and definitely the choppers.

 

I don't know why, but when setting up the mission the choppers were racing, and I was just too darn close to slow them down in a smooth manner. I also don't trim much, a fault in my flying style (used to be not at all for entire missions if you can believe it), but I am learning to do this more often.

 

I get what people are saying about tracks going bad after updates, but I practice landings with various aircraft a lot. I think landing is a tough thing for a lot of people to do, whether with, one, some, or all aircraft, and I like to be able to get aircraft down on the ground, so redoing them isn't a total nightmare for me or anything.

 

I'll consider doing them as videos instead though.

[ekg]

So I read the manual for Su 27. I didn't find any mention for which AoA to use when landing. Is there a chart?

 

Also as far as glide slope goes is it mostly accurate to say that if the ils indicator is centered then I'm on the glide slope? Would like to be able to learn to land (and navigate) properly.

[GGTharos]

Regarding the ILS being centered, yes, but ILS is only used when you cannot perform the approach visually; visual approach tends to be superior, and gives you more flexibility (more types of landing approaches).

 

Regarding the AoA for the flanker, I don't know - but it has got to be written down somewhere.

[Wizard_03]

Its 8 units, per the training missions for Su-27 for touch down that is.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Wizard_03

[Destroyer37]

This should help, its very generic and is not aircraft specific. Enjoy.

 

Chapters 7-9 hold the answers that you seek.

 

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-4of7.pdf