DCS: F-5E!

[Hummingbird]

All he's basically saying is that the F-5E was better in a guns only close in turn fight, which is no surprise, the F-5E will beat the MiG-21Bis handily there. He isn't saying that it was a better combat aircraft than the MiG.

[mattebubben]

All he's basically saying is that the F-5E was better in a guns only close in turn fight, which is no surprise, the F-5E will beat the MiG-21Bis handily there. He isn't saying that it was a better combat aircraft than the MiG.

 

Hes saying it was better in a manuvering fight.

 

the F-5E and mig-21Bis are both WVR fighters.

 

And the head on abillity of the Mig-21Bis is limited.

 

(alteast against a player that will not just fly into ur missiles like the AI will)

 

and that means it will end up in a manuvering scenario if the Mig-21 does not just do one pass and extend.

 

But that will give the F-5E the chance for snap shots.

 

And in a manuvering scenario the F-5E will have the upper hand.

 

Weapons Wise the mig-21 does not even have a real range advantage.

 

So he cant even fire and disengage before the F-5E can fire back

especially not if the F-5E gets one of the all aspect aim-9P variants.

 

And its no just for a gun fight.

 

Since if the mig-21 cant get behind the F-5E it cant use its IR missiles.

 

It might be different with multiple aircraft but in a 1vs1 the agillty / manuvering advantage of the F-5E will give it the edge.

[Vedexent]

It might be interesting if we could dig up any published combat kill claims (how many claimed F-5 / MiG-21 kills by the other have there been - if any) or real pilot anecdotes.

 

Facts trump speculation - otherwise we're kinda stuck on the "why my Dad is better then your Dad" plane of argument :P

 

Personally, I want to master both of these birds (I love the Soviet era planes for some reason, and Canada built a version of the F-5).

[RoflSeal]

The MiG-21 holds most of the cards against the F-5, whilst the F-5 only really has one clear advantage over the MiG (turn rate/radius). So I would agree with you that in skilled hands the MiG will most likely usually come out on top.

 

And a more usefull RWR, a better gunsight that won't stop working when you pull more then 3G, and much better visibility.

 

EDIT: Just remembered this thread

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144200

 

 

As I got to know the "Foreigner" I grew up in my respect to him both as to the flying machine and as to the fighter jet. Unapt to aggressive maneuvering when in "cruise" configuration (flaps and slats up), he would have changed when the pilot put it into the "maneuvering" configuration (flaps and slats down). Then from a heavy clodhopper he turned into a swallow. Checking out the capabilities of the optical sight, I enjoyed keeping the reticle on the target while attacking with a 6g pull, whereas on MiG-21 it would disappear from the view at 3g.

 

After determining the basic specification we decided to set up for a mock air-to-air combat with MiG-21bis. I would fight on my "native" MiG-21, and Nikolay Stogov - on F-5. The close air combat started head-on in equal positions. Every flight ended with the same result: MiG-21 lost, although he had much higher thrust-to-weight ratio. I laid myself out just to keep the initial position. I took the most out of the aircraft, took all he could give, but the targeting angle grew steadily and in a few minutes the "bandit" was on my tail. Only tactics could save me. What I was stricken by the most is that the result of the mock fights took not only the generals by surprise (one could explain this somehow), but also the military research departments of the Air Force and even the aviation engineers. They would review the data records for thousand times, ask the pilots, especially me. Frankly, I was somewhat confused as well, but when I tried the F-5, I realized that it was not an ordinary one.

 

So, what was happening in flight? At the speeds of 800 km/h (430 kts) and above the fight was on equal terms, nobody had explicit advantages, but the fighting was not literally maneuvering because of the large radii of the maneuvers. We would both stay at the equal maximum allowable g-loads. Whilst at the speeds below 750 km/h (400 kts) one couldn't sustain these g-loads even with the afterburner. And the lower the speed was the faster it decayed, thus lowering the maximum available g-load. It turned out that the aerodynamics was what won the day, not the thrust/weight ratio. But how was I to explain all this to the people above? They wouldn't have patted our backs for this. Then the MiG company representatives suggested:

Edited February 23, 2016 by RoflSeal

[mattebubben]

the F-5E and mig-21s have seen combat in multiple conflicts.

 

the Iran-Iraq war being the most notable.

 

In that conflict i would assume that the Mig-21 had more kills since the F-5E was used in a large degree as a attack/multirole with the mig-21 in a inteceptor role.

 

And as such the Mig-21s would have had multiple kills against bombladend F-5Es.

(much like what happened to the F-105 in the vietnam war)

 

They also faced eachother in africa in the war between Ethiopia and Somalia for example where the Ethiopian F-5Es came out ahead against Mig-21MFs.

 

But also another thing that has to be mentioned is about the performance.

 

Yes the Mig-21 is faster at mach 2.05

 

but that is clean.

 

a F-5E is slower at 1.6.

 

But where as a if a F-5E carries 2 missiles on its wingstip rails the preformance penelty will be very small (only the added drag of the missiles as the launch rail is permanently build in)

 

Where as for the Mig-21...

 

with 4 missiles/pylons i doubt the mig-21 could get much above mach 1.8

 

And if carrying Twin R-60 rails ro give it the 6 missiles so much talked about...

 

then the Drag would likely hamper it to the point where i doubt it would reach much above 1.6

 

And at that point it does not really have much of a speed advantage.

 

And at low altitude the F5E might even have a speed advantage against a mig-21 with 6 missiles.

 

And again where as the 2 missiles will have very small effect on the maneuvering performance of the F-5E the mig-21 will be more hampered if you are to carry 4-6 missiles.

 

Edit:

 

And a more usefull RWR, a better gunsight that won't stop working when you pull more then 3G, and much better visibility.

 

EDIT: Just remembered this thread

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144200

 

Look 4 posts above yours ^^

Edited February 23, 2016 by mattebubben

[Hummingbird]

All I can say is that with two missiles each the MiG-21 will boast a noticable advantage in speed, acceleration and climb rate, all three things being important in a realistic combat scenario.

 

Specific difference in climb rate:

 

F-5E = 34,400 ft/min

MiG-21Bis = 44,280 ft/min

 

 

Should the fight be reduced to guns only the MiG-21 can pick and choose when & where to fight, climb above the F-5 and make passes at it from a perched position. Classic energy fighting, and also how F-4's tackled the highly nimble MiG-17's in Vietnam.

[mattebubben]

Well when it comes to guns against manuvering targets the mig-21 is not very effective (ingame atleast)

 

The gyro sight is about useless if manuvering so ur down to just using the static sight and accuracy is not the greatest.

 

the F-5E sight is supposed to be much more effective.

 

And also with 2 missiles on the mig-21.

 

what missiles would that be?

 

1 radar and 1 ir? or 2 of one kind.

 

And if you only Fly with two missiles to keep a large performance advantage then you suddenly have no more missiles as the enemy.

 

Im not saying the mig-21 is bad.

 

i have it and i love flying fighting in it.

 

But i dont think it will have the Upper hand against the F-5E

(other then abillity to leave the fight at will and the fact that the F-5E cant outrun you)

 

And while yes the Mig-21 has the speed advantage it also burns speed alot faster when maneuvering.

 

And i have also always said that it depends on the tactics used.

 

If the Mig-21 pilot uses the right tactics and the F-5E pilot is not able to counter them the Mig-21 will likely win and wise versa.

 

But that does not mean the mig-21 is better in general in a combat scenario.

 

And also the entire Climb above and make passes from a perched position.

 

How are you supposed to do that ingame without GCI/AWACS as the Radar on the mig-21 does not see targets below him and the visibility below you is limited.

 

That tactic works great when you know where the enemy is at all time but in DCS especially in MP that is a very unlikely scenario.

 

And the F-5E will have greater situational awareness due to better cockpit visibility aswell as a better search radar and a much more effective RWR.

 

The Mig-21 will have the advantage in some Situations and the F-5E in others.

 

But when it comes to 1vs1 combat starting with a head on where both can see where the other is i think the F-5E will have the advantage.

[Schmidtfire]

Not to rain on your parade but there are differences between real life and DCS :joystick:

Hummingbird, I would say that SA is way, way more important. First look, first kill.

Besides, F-4 Phantoms didn't perform well against the MiGs in Vietnam, so that is not a very good example of successful energy fighting... sometimes it worked great, sometimes not as much. F-5E is a fast plane. Closer to the MiG-21, than F-4 Phantom compared to the MiG-17. If the MiG-21 pilot goes vertical, chances are good that the F-5E will be able to follow and get a missile shot in the vertical before stalling out.

[Hummingbird]

Not to rain on your parade but there are differences between real life and DCS :joystick:

Hummingbird, I would say that SA is way, way more important. First look, first kill.

 

Well view from the MiG cockpit isn't really that bad IMO, so I don't think the advantage will be that telling WVR.

 

Besides, F-4 Phantoms didn't perform well against the MiGs in Vietnam, so that is not a very good example of successful energy fighting... sometimes it worked great, sometimes not as much.

 

Initially. Once US pilots started undergoing DACT things changed dramatically, the number of aerial kills within Phantom units skyrocketed whilst own losses to enemy aircraft plummited. So the example very much holds, esp. as it was during DACT that Phantom pilots learned about and trained these energy tactics.

 

F-5E is a fast plane. Closer to the MiG-21, than F-4 Phantom compared to the MiG-17. If the MiG-21 pilot goes vertical, chances are good that the F-5E will be able to follow and get a missile shot in the vertical before stalling out.

 

It all depends on the relative speed of the aircraft as well as when & how the MiG pilot decides to initiate his climb. Regardless a general advantage of 10,000 ft/min is no small deal.

[mattebubben]

Well view from the MiG cockpit isn't really that bad IMO, so I don't think the advantage will be that telling WVR.

 

 

 

Initially. Once US pilots started undergoing DACT things changed dramatically, the number of aerial kills within Phantom units skyrocketed whilst own losses to enemy aircraft plummited. So the example very much holds, esp. as it was during DACT that Phantom pilots learned about and trained these energy tactics.

 

 

 

It all depends on the relative speed of the aircraft as well as when & how the MiG pilot decides to initiate his climb. Regardless a general advantage of 10,000 ft/min is no small deal.

 

But again we are talking mostly about how it will work ingame and not real life.

 

Real Life the Mig-21 would have more advantages then it will have ingame just due to the way the game engine works when it comes to visibility and GCI etc.

 

And also the fact that the majority of ppl that will fly the Mig-21 and F-5E against eachother will be amateurs and not professional combat pilots.

 

And as such tactics / strategies used will mostly not be the same as those that would have been used in a real life scenario by combat pilots.

 

And this is a simulator/game so things will work differently from how they might in real life.

[Schmidtfire]

MiG-21 were built to intercept and take down B-52 bombers. F-5 was designed as a light fighter to counter other fighters. Go figure out what plane has the advantage in a close in, 1 vs 1 scenario :doh:

 

This discussion is quite pointless. Once the F-5 is out, you will realize that they succeed att different tasks. If you want to shoot down enemy bombers and drop a few nukes, the MiG-21 will do just fine :thumbup:

[Hook47]

But again we are talking mostly about how it will work ingame and not real life.

 

Real Life the Mig-21 would have more advantages then it will have ingame just due to the way the game engine works when it comes to visibility and GCI etc.

 

And also the fact that the majority of ppl that will fly the Mig-21 and F-5E against eachother will be amateurs and not professional combat pilots.

 

And as such tactics / strategies used will mostly not be the same as those that would have been used in a real life scenario by combat pilots.

 

And this is a simulator/game so things will work differently from how they might in real life.

 

It seems semantical to bring up the real life versus DCS side of the argument, sense the whole point of DCS is to give us the most realistic simulation of these aircraft available, I am only concerned about how the DCS aircraft will fair against eachother, using what we know about the RL birds to get an idea of how it will/should be.

 

This is certainly an interesting debate, and I think these aircraft will be exceptionally good matches for eachother, so I am very excited. Having a large amount of hours in the MiG 21, particularly in PVP situations, I have to say there is truth to some of the disadvantages of the MiG, although they are a bit overstated in some cases.

 

The MiGs visibility is not all that bad actually. I have rarely lost sight of an enemy aircraft in a dog fight due to visibility issues. The only nasty bit is rearward visibility and performing S Turns and 6 checks regularly to keep someone from jumping you.

 

As with the Sabre and MiG 15, the climbing performance and speed advantage of the MiG will make things tricky for a Tiger pilot. This will give the MiG the option to totally avoid a turning fight, where the F-5 would have an advantage, particularly in guns only due to a better sight. As a MiG pilot, I will use my speed and EAB climbing ability to disengage or zoom and boom, as a Tiger pilot I will do everything I can to draw a mig into a low energy turn fight

 

Some talk has been made about the MiG being as slow as the F-5 with 6 missiles on the wings. I do not think this is accurate, and will test today.

 

Also the MiG will almost surely out accelerate the F-5 in every scenario.

 

The advisory radar/SA advantage certainly goes to the F-5, but make no mistake- the MiG is not useless as locating targets without a GCI. I use the RP-22 radar regularly in single player and multiplayer to locate targets that I didn't see visually. Like most things on the MiG, it takes work to master. The time restraint is a draw back, but after 20-30 minutes of CAP I'm not far from heading back anyway in most cases, and the Radar is turned on and off to take peaks. The F-5 will enjoy a radar advantage, but has no missiles that use it if I understand correctly.

 

All and all both excellent aircraft, very well matched. In skilled hands I still submit that the MiG will be at an advantage, but this is in no way stating victory is assured. I defeat 4th gen aircraft with the 21, when on paper I should loose every fight. The most important part of an aircraft is the pilot holding the stick

[streakeagle]

As far as F-4's vs MiGs: the overall kill ratio in Vietnam was better than 2:1. The Navy by itself did much better than that. The final, revised Korean War ratio isn't 10:1, but more like 2:1, and closer to 1:1 against Soviet pilots. Which renders the idea that the US completely dropped the ball on air superiority in Vietnam a complete myth. Mistakes were made, especially by the USAF who refused to learn any lessons until after the war. But overall, the F-4 was just as if not more successful in dominating MiGs than the F-86. In both cases, the aircraft were very close in capability. A combination of political constraints and pilot skill determined the outcomes.

[pepin1234]

But again we are talking mostly about how it will work ingame and not real life.

 

Real Life the Mig-21 would have more advantages then it will have ingame just due to the way the game engine works when it comes to visibility and GCI etc.

 

And also the fact that the majority of ppl that will fly the Mig-21 and F-5E against eachother will be amateurs and not professional combat pilots.

 

And as such tactics / strategies used will mostly not be the same as those that would have been used in a real life scenario by combat pilots.

 

And this is a simulator/game so things will work differently from how they might in real life.

 

To be honest. Could be much easier for the Mig-21... When the reality come to the game in the same era.

 

We have not yet a properly GCI, close to the real life.

 

As you just said, everybody in MP go on his way, all the team in offensive. When IRL the Mig-21 is a defensive tactical figther.

 

The F-5 should come first to get in combat, never the contrary.

 

For example, If you now play in MP you will see some server without AWACS, just wait till the F-18 and you will see this server with AWACS. Is not a matter of who really have the advantage but what is seeking the server Admin. Probably with the F-5 gonna happen the same, seeking a face to face figth without GCI is not a good simulation. Was not like that IRL

Edited February 24, 2016 by pepin1234

[Hummingbird]

Another thing that needs to be considered is that MiG drivers in most cases probably will be going faster at the point of visual contact, giving them a good head start energy wise. Question then is wether or not the MiG's advantage in speed, acceleration & climb rate can make up for the F-5E's superior turn performance, but there are ways to achieve this. In addition to this the MiG-21 is capable of a high initial pitch rate which will be a good asset for taking high AoA snapshots at the tighter turning F-5.

 

Will be an interesting fight for sure providing the MiG pilot decides to stay around for one, but otherwise these two aircraft really don't match each other very well, one simply features too great a performance advantage in most situations making it very hard to head off for an F-5 in any realistic scenario. But then again we're also looking at two aircraft designed for two different purposes.

[Jumbik]

The winner of the theme music was choosen yesterday... one has to wonder are we close to the release? :)

[RoflSeal]

Another thing that needs to be considered is that MiG drivers in most cases probably will be going faster at the point of visual contact, giving them a good head start energy wise. Question then is wether or not the MiG's advantage in speed, acceleration & climb rate can make up for the F-5E's superior turn performance, but there are ways to achieve this. In addition to this the MiG-21 is capable of a high initial pitch rate which will be a good asset for taking high AoA snapshots at the tighter turning F-5.

 

Will be an interesting fight for sure providing the MiG pilot decides to stay around for one, but otherwise these two aircraft really don't match each other very well, one simply features too great a performance advantage in most situations making it very hard to head off for an F-5 in any realistic scenario. But then again we're also looking at two aircraft designed for two different purposes.

 

I doubt there will be much difference if both aircraft are cruising at military power at low altitude. And MiG speed limit is 1300 km/h IAS, F-5E limit is 750 KIAS which is 1390kmh.

 

Will be difficult to pull snap shot with shitty ASP gunsight, it's pretty much luck shot, say unlike in F-86 Sabre which has a very good A-A gunsight (and I assume F-5E will behave similar).

 

Honestly, best way to fight the MiG will be to engage emergency afterburner and just pull loops, the F-5 will probably stall, afterall with Emergency AFB, MiG-21 gets a T/W ratio greater then 1.

Edited February 25, 2016 by RoflSeal

[Kev2go]

MiG-21 were built to intercept and take down B-52 bombers. F-5 was designed as a light fighter to counter other fighters. Go figure out what plane has the advantage in a close in, 1 vs 1 scenario :doh:

 

This discussion is quite pointless. Once the F-5 is out, you will realize that they succeed att different tasks. If you want to shoot down enemy bombers and drop a few nukes, the MiG-21 will do just fine :thumbup:

 

 

that doesnt tell the full story sure at initial design phase thats true that it was meant as a bomber inteceptor but the mig21 evolved much more over its later versions, and to say that it would exclusively shooting down bombers no, it was used for air to air engagements as as well as some strike in its service history.

 

in vietnam the mig21's were employed fairly well. despite being against the odds.

 

it was pretty much the top soviet & warsaw pact air force fighter until mig23 and mig25. so its unfair generalizing that mig21 is only capable of taking out bombers and not good at anything else.

 

in event of a confrontation soviets know thier mig21 would have to conduct air vs air engagements vs nato fighters .

 

 

just because a plane was designed to do a certain tasks initiall design phase doesn't mean it can't be used in other ways or wont evolve in follow up variants to coduct additional roles or even end up being good at them.

 

what was pointed out that vs the F5.... mig21 will still boast climb and acceleration. So it will be Energy Fighting tactics vs turn n burn dog fighting.

 

 

also its the pilot, his skill and tactics that ultimately matter more than the machine.

 

 

 

i can see f5 is more appealing to more casual player since dog fighting is easier and requires less discipline than pure energy fighting.

 

as well techies who would enjoy more fancier avionics, or those who want a more capable aircraft in the fighter/bomber role.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Kev2go

[mkellytx]

As far as F-4's vs MiGs: the overall kill ratio in Vietnam was better than 2:1. The Navy by itself did much better than that. The final, revised Korean War ratio isn't 10:1, but more like 2:1, and closer to 1:1 against Soviet pilots. Which renders the idea that the US completely dropped the ball on air superiority in Vietnam a complete myth. Mistakes were made, especially by the USAF who refused to learn any lessons until after the war. But overall, the F-4 was just as if not more successful in dominating MiGs than the F-86. In both cases, the aircraft were very close in capability. A combination of political constraints and pilot skill determined the outcomes.

 

Streakeagle,

 

Ratios alone don't tell the whole story. They were quite good early in Rolling Thunder when the pilots were still fighter pilots and the NVNAF was terribly inexperience. After a couple of years the opposition got better, as did their GCI network and the no involuntary second tour policy resulted in plenty of pilots who flew fighters. Ratios became quite bad late in Rolling Thunder, USAF leadership refused to be honest with themselves and admit poor policy and still enforced rigid tactics (fluid four anyone?). Linebacker started bad and never really got better for USAF.

 

The Navy to their credit (pains this former blue suiter to say) looked at the half time score and realized the part of their team that scored well was the old second string Crusaders. Out of that bit of humble pie came Top Gun and the return to the true and righteous path of ACM. After the initial clashes with the Navy during Linebacker (24-4) the NVNAF left the Navy alone and targeted USAF packages.

 

Moral of the story, a better airplane operated by pilots who have no business in fighter cockpits using bad tactics will have bad results.

 

Addendum, the fighter with more carefree handling characteristics will have a larger number of its pilot population more capable of exploiting its strengths then one with superior performance, but that has nasty handling qualities in that superior area will have fewer pilots able to do so (unless well trained). Many F-4 pilots were scared of pushing the edge because of the nasty departure behavior at high AOA, some even departed the airplanes in dogfights.

 

In light of that and back on topic, a pair of well flown F-5's should be difficult to defeat and a talented Mig driver should be able to exploit its advantages one V one.

[IvanK]

Mirage IIIO V F5E :)

 

 

The F5E was a very competent little fighter

[SandMartin]

As far as F-4's vs MiGs: the overall kill ratio in Vietnam was better than 2:1. The Navy by itself did much better than that. The final, revised Korean War ratio isn't 10:1, but more like 2:1, and closer to 1:1 against Soviet pilots. Which renders the idea that the US completely dropped the ball on air superiority in Vietnam a complete myth. Mistakes were made, especially by the USAF who refused to learn any lessons until after the war. But overall, the F-4 was just as if not more successful in dominating MiGs than the F-86. In both cases, the aircraft were very close in capability. A combination of political constraints and pilot skill determined the outcomes.

 

From russian resources, its ratio 2.3:1. 480 dogfights, 350 us planes was shot down, 131 loses in red side (Mig-17, Mig-21 and Mig-19)

 

 

"За восемь лет войны северо-вьетнамские истребители, летавшие на МиГ-17, МиГ-21, а также эпизодически на МиГ-19 китайского производства, провели в общей сложности 480 воздушных боев, сбив 350 самолетов противника и потеряв 131 своих. Соотношение как 2,3:1."

http://www.airforce.ru/history/localwars/lokalwar3.htm

[pepin1234]

This is the ratio of all three Migs together. The ratio with only Mig-21 is superior. Of course using only the Soviet tactics.

[Basher54321]

From russian resources, its ratio 2.3:1. 480 dogfights, 350 us planes was shot down, 131 loses in red side (Mig-17, Mig-21 and Mig-19)

 

 

 

From the VPAF war records

 

 

Claims by MiG-17/19 pilots = 73

Match US loss records = 22

 

Claims by MiG-21 pilots = 119

Match US loss records = 47

Edited February 28, 2016 by Basher54321

[ThorBrasil]

news?

[King_Hrothgar]

It's worth mentioning the US likes to claim losses to fighters as losses to ground fire and SAMs when there is any ambiguity. I don't doubt the VPAF numbers are inflated, but official US numbers are also deflated. A better figure to go on is how many aircraft were lost in total. On an unrelated note, what do fights between F-4's and assorted MiGs have to do with the F-5E?

 

As for news, I expect the next news item to be a release estimate + pre-order page or a Q&A video by Wags. We may get those today, we might get them in 6 months. There is no way to know.