Talisman_VR Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 By having geared synchronization with the propeller and firing mechanism, I presume that this limited the rate of fire to the propeller RPM. If the rate of fire is reduced as the propeller turns more slowly, is this something that is modelled for the Bf 109 and the FW in DCS? Or does the slowing down of prop speed not effect the rate of fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaOneSix Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 My understanding is that it doesn't really affect the rate of fire. That is, the "synchronized" guns are really just fire in a sort of "semi-automatic" mode. That is, the pilot's trigger activates a clutch that allows the gun to be fired, while a gear attached to the engine camshaft is technically "pulling the trigger". In effect, the prop is telling the gun to fire one bullet at a time, but it does so far faster than the gun is capable of firing... The synchronization system might try to fire the gun 12 or so times between the time the gun fires one round, and is capable of firing the next round. Keep in mind that the gun is not capable of firing multiple rounds between each blade as it passes, the opposite is true. I don't know exact numbers, but my quick crazy guess for a 109 is that a propeller blade would pass in front of the barrel 9 times every time the gun could conceivably fire (assuming 2700 prop rpm and 900 rpm rate of fire for the MG131). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necroscope Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 This was discussed a lot in ROF forum and finally implemented there. Take a look at this: Всех убью, один останусь! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Hrothgar Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I think the question was is this modeled in DCS or not. At full RPM, it shouldn't be an issue as you said. But with the engine idling or running at reduced RPM, it should be fairly noticeable. I don't have either the Fw-190 or Bf-109 modules here, so I'm also curious as to if the changes in RoF are modeled or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Dragon Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Fw-190 and Bf-109 has integrate on your .luas the "sincronizer", but not sure if some hard code are under the modules. Bf-109 LUA Guns = { -- LH MG 131 MG_131({ muzzle_pos_connector = "Gun_point_1", effect_arg_number = 433, mixes = {{3, 1, 3, 2}}, count = 300, azimuth_initial = -0.034, elevation_initial = -0.298, supply_position = {0.284, 0.0, 0.0}, drop_cartridge = 204, ejector_pos_connector = "eject 2", ejector_dir = {0,5,0}, effects = { {name = "GunSynchronizer", sectors = 3, reduction_gear = 1.685, engine_rpm_nominal = 1800, dead_angle_degrees = 50}, {name = "FireEffect", arg = 433}, {name = "SmokeEffect"} } }), -- RH MG 131 MG_131({ muzzle_pos_connector = "Gun_point_2", effect_arg_number = 432, mixes = {{1, 3, 2, 3}}, count = 300, azimuth_initial = 0.034, elevation_initial = -0.298, supply_position = {0.284, 0.0, 0.0}, drop_cartridge = 204, ejector_pos_connector = "eject 3", ejector_dir = {0,5,0}, effects = { {name = "GunSynchronizer", sectors = 3, reduction_gear = 1.685, engine_rpm_nominal = 1800, dead_angle_degrees = 50}, {name = "FireEffect", arg = 432}, {name = "SmokeEffect"} } }), -- Nose MK 108 MK_108({ muzzle_pos_connector = "Gun_point_0", effect_arg_number = 350, mixes = {{1, 3}}, azimuth_initial = 0, elevation_initial = -0.069, supply_position = {0.024, 0.0, 0.0}, drop_cartridge = 0, ejector_pos_connector = "eject 1", ejector_dir = {0,5,0}, }), }, Fw-190 Guns = { -- LH MG 151/20 MG_151_20({ muzzle_pos_connector = "Gun_point_04", rates = {688}, effect_arg_number = 436, mixes = {{1, 2, 2, 3, 3}}, azimuth_initial = -0.092, elevation_initial = 0.533, supply_position = {0.23, -0.34, -0.44}, ejector_pos = {-1.2, -0.1, 0.0}, drop_cartridge = 204, effects = { {name = "GunSynchronizer", sectors = 3, reduction_gear = 2.4, engine_rpm_nominal = 3250, dead_angle_degrees = 50}, {name = "FireEffect", arg = 436}, {name = "HeatEffectExt", shot_heat = 20.9, barrel_k = 0.462 * 16.6, body_k = 0.462 * 35.4}, {name = "SmokeEffect"} } }), -- LH MG 131 MG_131({ muzzle_pos_connector = "Gun_point_03", rates = {875}, effect_arg_number = 435, mixes = {{1, 2, 3, 2}}, azimuth_initial = 0, elevation_initial = 0.349, supply_position = {0.38, 0.05, -0.31}, ejector_pos = {-0.7, -1.2, 0.18}, drop_cartridge = 204, effects = { {name = "GunSynchronizer", sectors = 3, reduction_gear = 2.4, engine_rpm_nominal = 3250, dead_angle_degrees = 50}, {name = "FireEffect", arg = 435}, {name = "HeatEffectExt", shot_heat = 4.103, barrel_k = 0.462 * 3.7, body_k = 0.462 * 14.3}, {name = "SmokeEffect"} } }), -- RH MG 131 MG_131({ muzzle_pos_connector = "Gun_point_02", rates = {883}, effect_arg_number = 432, mixes = {{3, 2, 1, 2}}, azimuth_initial = 0, elevation_initial = 0.349, supply_position = {0.38, 0.05, 0.31}, ejector_pos = {-0.7, -1.2, -0.18}, drop_cartridge = 204, effects = { {name = "GunSynchronizer", sectors = 3, reduction_gear = 2.4, engine_rpm_nominal = 3250, dead_angle_degrees = 50}, {name = "FireEffect", arg = 432}, {name = "HeatEffectExt", shot_heat = 4.103, barrel_k = 0.462 * 3.7, body_k = 0.462 * 14.3}, {name = "SmokeEffect"} } }), -- RH MG 151/20 MG_151_20({ muzzle_pos_connector = "Gun_point_01", rates = {679}, effect_arg_number = 350, mixes = {{3, 3, 1, 2, 2}}, azimuth_initial = 0.092, elevation_initial = 0.533, supply_position = {0.23, -0.34, 0.44}, ejector_pos = {-1.2, -0.1, 0.0}, drop_cartridge = 204, effects = { {name = "GunSynchronizer", sectors = 3, reduction_gear = 2.4, engine_rpm_nominal = 3250, dead_angle_degrees = 50}, {name = "FireEffect", arg = 436}, {name = "HeatEffectExt", shot_heat = 20.9, barrel_k = 0.462 * 16.6, body_k = 0.462 * 35.4}, {name = "SmokeEffect"} } }), }, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaOneSix Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Well I'm certainly open to being proven wrong, but if the system tries to fire the gun (called an "impulse") just once every time a "safe zone" passes in front of the gun, that's still trying to fire each gun on a Bf109 about 2700 times per minute (assuming 900 rpm at idle, or some other really low rpm setting), which is still 3 times faster than an MG131 can fire. So I don't see how the rate of fire for the guns is appreciably slowed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Hrothgar Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 It doesn't necessarily fire at every propeller opening. That would depend on how the gear is setup. Even if it were, that still doesn't mean the weapon fires at max RoF. If the weapon misses the firing chance on a blade pass by even a tiny fraction of a second, it must wait for the next one. In any case, this couldn't be simpler to test in game for anyone who has the module. Simply switch the engine off after running it and as the prop winds down, fire the synchronized guns. It will either fire at the full rate of fire, or it will be visibly synchronized with the propeller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eros Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 You can't do that since with engine off you cannot fire the guns. The FW190 at least needs a bit of throttle to fire..at idle it does not 335th_GREros [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted April 28, 2015 ED Team Share Posted April 28, 2015 It doesn't necessarily fire at every propeller opening. That would depend on how the gear is setup. Even if it were, that still doesn't mean the weapon fires at max RoF. If the weapon misses the firing chance on a blade pass by even a tiny fraction of a second, it must wait for the next one. In any case, this couldn't be simpler to test in game for anyone who has the module. Simply switch the engine off after running it and as the prop winds down, fire the synchronized guns. It will either fire at the full rate of fire, or it will be visibly synchronized with the propeller. You misunderstand the logic of electrically triggered weapon in Dora, for example. Weapon firing circuit is simply blocked in three sectors, so the firing rate depends on rpm in more complicated way having not so regular sawtooth shape as you can see for ROF planes. In Dora it will fire at low rpm but will not fire as the engine stopped, because high voltage inductor is not commutated (like an ignition coil in automotive engine). Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Hrothgar Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I assumed the system was mostly mechanical thus not requiring anything but battery power. The test itself isn't actually relevant, the OP and I are only trying to find out if the synchronizer's effect on weapon rate of fire is modeled or not. The lua code suggests it is but doesn't confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJockel Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I assumed the system was mostly mechanical thus not requiring anything but battery power. The test itself isn't actually relevant, the OP and I are only trying to find out if the synchronizer's effect on weapon rate of fire is modeled or not. The lua code suggests it is but doesn't confirm. If your engine is off or your RPM is to low (standing IDEL on the ground) you can't fire the doras guns. Same goes for the Mg's on the 109. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page.Down Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 (edited) By having geared synchronization with the propeller and firing mechanism, I presume that this limited the rate of fire to the propeller RPM. If the rate of fire is reduced as the propeller turns more slowly, is this something that is modelled for the Bf 109 and the FW in DCS? Or does the slowing down of prop speed not effect the rate of fire? It's ratio'd via the gear synchronization. Meaning it's speed of the prop dependent. Edit: Let me simplify the example Let's say your maximum prop speed is 3000rpm Let's say your MG is 1000 rounds per minute At 3000rpm prop speed the gun fires 1 round every 3 full turns of the prop. At 1000rpm prop speed the gun fires 1 round every 1 full turn of the prop. If your engine is off or your RPM is to low (standing IDEL on the ground) you can't fire the doras guns. Same goes for the Mg's on the 109. So it's reasonable to assume like this person said that below 1000rpm or a certain given RPM you cannot fire your weapons. Edited April 28, 2015 by Page.Down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 WW1 scouts linked the gun rate of fire to the engine rpm. WW2 fighters like the 109 had true interrupters: the rate of fire was not periodic with engine rpm. P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted April 29, 2015 ED Team Share Posted April 29, 2015 WW1 scouts linked the gun rate of fire to the engine rpm. WW2 fighters like the 109 had true interrupters: the rate of fire was not periodic with engine rpm. Periodic, but having more complicated dependance on rpm. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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