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A-10C Discussion


McBlemmen
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There's also the factor that dedicated CAS platforms get to train exclusively for the CAS role while multi-role fighters are basically splitting their time between multiple jobs and they'll never have the time to focus on the task as well as the A-10 culture does. Its very much the same with dedicated air to air aircraft.

 

If you roll the A-10 culture into the F-35 culture or whatever other multi-role fighter you'll lose something thats not on any tech sheet. You'll lose a community of pilots who are close to single minded in their focus on precision ground attack with troops nearby. You can make the argument that losing thats worth it when you consider the budget, but I doubt you'd see the generals take the compromise if you told them they'd lose their dedicated A2A culture instead.

 

No, this is untrue,for example i hold ip the Hornet, whose squadrons were seperated between ground attack squadrons and air superiority. Common platform, different squadron role. This approach was taken specifically to address the training concern.

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Precision is important, and any platform capable of CAS can do precision. Ideally, a CAS platform should:

-Be able to constantly observe a large area around the battlefield with yet enough fidelity to ID personnel, vehicles, smoke, tracers and vehicles yet be able to rapidly determine whether or not people are armed.

-Deliver not only mk-82 class bombs and PGMs but also engage with many small explosive weapons over an area large enough to attack an enemy formation within 100 meters of friendlies. The shorter the weapons' time of flight, the better.

-Be able to engage moving targets.

-Multi-spectral capability: Night vision, FLIR, low light TV and CCD (color CCD even better).

 

Low and slow will always have a CAS advantage until targeting pods can:

-Have color CCD, and see through clouds.......IDK, magic?

-Provide an extremely simple ease of use. A pilot with 100 flight hours on a jet can fly an orbit and monitor a large area and quickly reference points of interest without masking.

 

SDBs can somewhat saturate an area target close to friendlies as they have a smaller frag footprint than mk-82 class bombs and are typically carried in higher quantities. However, they have a long time of flight compared to guns and rockets and might not have moving target capability.

 

Hellfires and other LGWs can hit moving targets and can potentially have small frag footprints, but are not all weather capable and are limited to the number of different coded lasers.....hence, they cannot saturate an area target very well.

 

Cannons smaller than 30mm are good for suppression, and that's about it.

 

So......it's hard to replace the capabilities of the A-10, and fly fast, high and relatively safe from air defenses. A lot of things brief well to less than knowledgeable military procurers, generals and investors....but the technology is not quite there yet. until then, there will be compromises we can all argue about.

 

 

The OP is correct - the definition of CAS as defined by the forces has nothing to do with flying low /slow and is not platform dependent. Nothing is going to be flying low & slow over a half decent ground force today - and any observation will done from a safe distance unless things have really gone to pot in which case it's a suicide run!

 

Assuming you can ID ground troops with your eyes is ridiculous - and only leads to fratricide. This is why JTAC/FACA/CAS assets work as teams - and the guys calling shots when troops are close are the ones on the ground only - even in WW1 friendly ground troops had to mark out their positions on the ground.

 

Ok so a TGP potentially cant see through clouds - but under the clouds you still cant see through tree cover - and good luck working out who's who when the troops are intermingled (or not).

 

One reason a FACA uses a TGP because they can mark targets for the other guys they call in instead of having to give instructions open to misinterpretation.

 

An advantage of the A-10C using a TGP is that it can verify targets given from the controllers and has far more time to observe and work suitable attack vectors better than they would down lower.

 

Caliber size doesn't equate to muzzle velocity etc - and anything under that doesn't go through troops and vehicles you say??

 

An example from Iraq 2003 - a couple of F-16s got called in under cloud cover at night so had to go to about 5000ft - the troops were intermingled with each other. The SOF controller waved a light they could pick up in NVGs and they dropped (JDAM?) bombs unguided where the guy wanted from the ref point which did the trick. An A-10 or AV-8 etc could have also done this.

 

I suspect SDBs could be dropped unguided in the same situation - and yes SDB IIs have multiple seekers (GPS/Laser) for moving targets anyway.

 

hmmm

 

2n1x0zt.jpg


Edited by Basher54321
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As far as I understand it, "going low and slow" results in better SA for the pilot (compared to, i.e. a drone operator who is looking only through a dringing straw with a latency in the range of seconds at the other side of the world) and thus allows a more effective collaboration with the guys on the ground.

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As far as I understand it, "going low and slow" results in better SA for the pilot (compared to, i.e. a drone operator who is looking only through a dringing straw with a latency in the range of seconds at the other side of the world) and thus allows a more effective collaboration with the guys on the ground.

 

 

When there was no alternative this was likely true to an extent - in Vietnam you may need to see the WP or rocket smoke marking references - but back then communication was audio and smoke.

 

Communication from the ground today can be via multiple methods - not just voice/smoke.

 

Your eyes are not better than a multispectrum camera that can zoom in on exact coordinates relayed from other assets and will allow you to sit in relative safety with far more time.

 

Even if you had a multi spectrum HMD that tagged the bad guys with labels why would you need to sit down low soaking up damage? In reality damage repair is not a case of flying back to base. An example taken from 1991 when A-10s were withdrawn in favour of F-16s because so many were on the ramp damaged.

 

There is a place for low and slow - where you can get away with it - but better SA - hardly you have far less time to think/react and are in far more unnecessary danger - with probably less idea of what is actually happening on the ground.

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If you google "stealth A-10" and "futuristic A-10" you'll find some funny artworks/concepts :D

 

Awesome!!

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Jumping in a little late and didn't have time to read all the posts.

 

Personally i think that the above posted artwork looks just like 7rooper said: Awesome!

 

With CAS specifically there seems to be many ways to skin the cat. Attack Helicopters, Drones, Fighter Bombers, Dedicated Fixed Wing Jets (Like A10), Prop Driven Fixed Wing and converted Transport Aircraft. Did I leave anything out?

 

Unfortunately it will probably mean that the future will not bring us another A10. Because of budgetary constraints most countries will settle for a jack of all trades king of none job. This is already old news ; but just my two cents.

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The OP is correct - the definition of CAS as defined by the forces has nothing to do with flying low /slow and is not platform dependent. Nothing is going to be flying low & slow over a half decent ground force today - and any observation will done from a safe distance unless things have really gone to pot in which case it's a suicide run!

I don't argue there is truth to this, and possibly more so in an insurgency where ADA exists in a non-linear fight. In a conflict with friendly/enemy lines there are established IPs to keep aircraft relatively safe from SA fires. Providing immediate and uninterrupted CAS in this situation may be almost impossible, for any aircraft. Flying low altitude or higher is largely situation dependent.

This thread is not about who can or can't do CAS, it's about a replacement for the A-10. Just because an MQ-9 or an A-29 can do CAS, doesn't quite mean they are viable replacements.

 

Assuming you can ID ground troops with your eyes is ridiculous - and only leads to fratricide.

I never said anyone should be able to ID troops with their eyes. If they could, why would it lead to fratricide? What makes seeing people so much more prone to fratricide vs vehicles?

 

Ok so a TGP potentially cant see through clouds - but under the clouds you still cant see through tree cover - and good luck working out who's who when the troops are intermingled (or not).

True, even a TGP would be hard pressed to see through a dense canopy. If friendlies and enemies are close up, like fixed-bayonets style, then CAS will be of little or no help.

 

An advantage of the A-10C using a TGP is that it can verify targets given from the controllers and has far more time to observe and work suitable attack vectors better than they would down lower.

Indeed. Until the deck is 2000ft overcast. Perhaps I should've further clarified my comment and said "Having the flexibility of going low and slow will always have a CAS advantage" A WP mark with a quick correction from the JTAC for the wingman to hit, get in, get out may be the best solution.

 

Caliber size doesn't equate to muzzle velocity etc - and anything under that doesn't go through troops and vehicles you say??

I used the word suppression, which doesn't mean non-lethal....it's the highest probability outcome of 20mm-25mm guns based on wider air-air designed dispersion, smaller HEI punch and a longer min-strafe distance (compounding dispersion) based on the speed of the aircraft carrying an M-61 vs a GAU-8. Of course, 30mm loaded with the wrong ammo type for the target may be only good for suppression as well.

 

An example from Iraq 2003 - a couple of F-16s got called in under cloud cover at night so had to go to about 5000ft - the troops were intermingled with each other. The SOF controller waved a light they could pick up in NVGs and they dropped (JDAM?) bombs unguided where the guy wanted from the ref point which did the trick. An A-10 or AV-8 etc could have also done this.

Wish I knew the full story. Sounds like the pilot tricked the system to a ballistic only release. I doubt the friendly troops were within 100m of the target, unless they were shielded by some strong walls. AFAIK, 5000ft deck is fairly workable for F-16s, especially with visual IR marks vice using a TGP.

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If they could, why would it lead to fratricide? What makes seeing people so much more prone to fratricide vs vehicles?

 

There is no way to visually ID people at any speed or altitude and differentiate whos who especially when troops are close so a very high probability of fratricide if you take the chance. You need complete guidance from the ground first.

 

Even in low intensity warfare - for example 2 A-10s on night CAS in OEF are given coordinates from the JTAC and then they fix the TGP on the location of the bad guys. They then spend time going though the ROE procedures and observing them along side the JTAC- then 10 mins later they got approval to strafe. Without a TGP they would have to spend a lot of effort keeping tabs on the actual location - but instead they can concentrate on more important things - like not flying into a mountain.

 

 

True, even a TGP would be hard pressed to see through a dense canopy. If friendlies and enemies are close up, like fixed-bayonets style, then CAS will be of little or no help.

 

Possibly but like below they may still want ordnance dropped near a given reference to help them out.

 

 

Wish I knew the full story. Sounds like the pilot tricked the system to a ballistic only release. I doubt the friendly troops were within 100m of the target, unless they were shielded by some strong walls. AFAIK, 5000ft deck is fairly workable for F-16s, especially with visual IR marks vice using a TGP.

 

It's a pilot account from https://ospreypublishing.com/f-16-fighting-falcon-units-of-operation-iraqi-freedom-pb - I havnt checked details but think it scared the Iraqis and allowed the SOF guys to escape.

 

Pretty sure they can still drop PGM/IAMs etc in CCIP/CCRP modes like a dumb/gravity bomb.

 

 

edit: This was a hectic and panicked situation the SOF controller was running for it but the F-16 guys (both got the Semper Viper award for this) managed to get out of him that a drop 3 clicks north of the light (firefly) would be away from friendlies so he pickled a GBU-12 in dumb bomb release (have to assume CCIP). Off target at 5000ft and staying fast 450 - 500kts due to MANPAD threat.


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This video is probably good right about now for stirring up trouble in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the vid was fake, just because its too damned amusing.

 

 

Without the full context it is difficult to say - might be real - however I would guess the reason he might want A-10s has nothing to do with capability and more to do with the pilots CAS skills in sorting out complex CAS situations. Several accounts in OEF where A-10s got to an area which they describe as chaos and the pilots had to take charge and organize the multiple assets already there.

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This video is probably good right about now for stirring up trouble in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the vid was fake, just because its too damned amusing.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=558830810882063&set=vb.452716798160132&type=3&theater

A possible good point of discussion indeed, but anecdotal stuff always needs to be treated carefully. Who is to say that somewhere an A-10 ran into the same problem? Or that in a different situation (thicker air defenses) the A-10 wouldn't be calling in F-15's to do the job?

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  • 2 weeks later...

A-10 & Chuck!

 

I'd say it's a done deal, if Chuck Norris wants the Hawg! ;) :P :thumbup:

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/chuck-norris-wants-to-save-the-a-10-2015-3

 

 

"Norris is producing and selling a T-shirt with the words “Save the A-10” on the front, and on the back, “Chuck Norris’ First Born Son was a Warthog. He cried tears of ‘BRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTT.”

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Sith, Thank you for that link..only 5 days left to order?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] SMOKE'M:smoke: IF YA GOT'M!:gun_rifle:

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Wow. He's 75!

Velocity Micro PC | Asus Z97-A | i7-4790K 4.7GHz | Corsair Liquid CPU Cooler | 32GB DDR3-1600MHz Memory | EVGA RTX 2080 Ti XC | 240gb Intel 520 Series MLC SSD | 850 W Corsair PSU | Windows 10 Home | LG 32UD99-W UHD Monitor | Bose Companion 5 Speakers | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5

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Could someone explain to me why Chuck Norris is the subject of mocking in Western civilisation?

Is it because of his beard or attitude or movies that are unreal in nature (like perhaps shooting 100 guys with a single zig-zagging bullet)?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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The First rule of Chuck Norris is: you do not talk about Chuck Norris.

 

When the Boogeyman goes to sleep at night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.

 

Chuck Norris once shot down a German fighter plane with his finger, by yelling, "Bang!"

 

Chuck Norris can divide by zero.

 

 

(all seriousness, it is a great charity he's got). :thumbup:

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^^^^:megalol::thumbup::smartass::D

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] SMOKE'M:smoke: IF YA GOT'M!:gun_rifle:

H2o Cooler I7 9700k GA 390x MB Win 10 pro

Evga RTX 2070 8Gig DD5

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TM.Warthog:joystick: :punk:, CV-1:matrix:,3x23" monitors, Tm MFD's, Saitek pro rudders wrapped up in 2 sheets of plywood:megalol:

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So, tomorrow they are coming back to Spangdahlem in Germany, where they are based again since Febuary.

 

Many Germans find it hilarious that it is officially prohibited to dance in this country on this friday, called "Karfreitag" (Good Friday), because it is a Christian religious holiday, but foreign military war planes are allowed to fly and conduct missions to support NATO pressure and propaganda against our russian friends.

 

Same counts for the stunning "Dragoon Ride" they dragged through our streets, occupying the barracks they were based in once.

 

Imagine the Russians doing the same, occupying the bases they lived in, in East Germany, in the 90s. We would have WWIII already.

 

Crazy. Gives me headaches.


Edited by Airway
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