A-10C Discussion

[Flagrum]

As far as I understand it, "going low and slow" results in better SA for the pilot (compared to, i.e. a drone operator who is looking only through a dringing straw with a latency in the range of seconds at the other side of the world) and thus allows a more effective collaboration with the guys on the ground.

[Basher54321]

As far as I understand it, "going low and slow" results in better SA for the pilot (compared to, i.e. a drone operator who is looking only through a dringing straw with a latency in the range of seconds at the other side of the world) and thus allows a more effective collaboration with the guys on the ground.

 

 

When there was no alternative this was likely true to an extent - in Vietnam you may need to see the WP or rocket smoke marking references - but back then communication was audio and smoke.

 

Communication from the ground today can be via multiple methods - not just voice/smoke.

 

Your eyes are not better than a multispectrum camera that can zoom in on exact coordinates relayed from other assets and will allow you to sit in relative safety with far more time.

 

Even if you had a multi spectrum HMD that tagged the bad guys with labels why would you need to sit down low soaking up damage? In reality damage repair is not a case of flying back to base. An example taken from 1991 when A-10s were withdrawn in favour of F-16s because so many were on the ramp damaged.

 

There is a place for low and slow - where you can get away with it - but better SA - hardly you have far less time to think/react and are in far more unnecessary danger - with probably less idea of what is actually happening on the ground.

[7rooper]

If you google "stealth A-10" and "futuristic A-10" you'll find some funny artworks/concepts :D

 

Awesome!!

[Flagrum]

Awesome!!

:shocking: ... :wacko: ....:puke:

[FanBoy2006.01]

Jumping in a little late and didn't have time to read all the posts.

 

Personally i think that the above posted artwork looks just like 7rooper said: Awesome!

 

With CAS specifically there seems to be many ways to skin the cat. Attack Helicopters, Drones, Fighter Bombers, Dedicated Fixed Wing Jets (Like A10), Prop Driven Fixed Wing and converted Transport Aircraft. Did I leave anything out?

 

Unfortunately it will probably mean that the future will not bring us another A10. Because of budgetary constraints most countries will settle for a jack of all trades king of none job. This is already old news ; but just my two cents.

[Mike5560]

The OP is correct - the definition of CAS as defined by the forces has nothing to do with flying low /slow and is not platform dependent. Nothing is going to be flying low & slow over a half decent ground force today - and any observation will done from a safe distance unless things have really gone to pot in which case it's a suicide run!

I don't argue there is truth to this, and possibly more so in an insurgency where ADA exists in a non-linear fight. In a conflict with friendly/enemy lines there are established IPs to keep aircraft relatively safe from SA fires. Providing immediate and uninterrupted CAS in this situation may be almost impossible, for any aircraft. Flying low altitude or higher is largely situation dependent.

This thread is not about who can or can't do CAS, it's about a replacement for the A-10. Just because an MQ-9 or an A-29 can do CAS, doesn't quite mean they are viable replacements.

 

Assuming you can ID ground troops with your eyes is ridiculous - and only leads to fratricide.

I never said anyone should be able to ID troops with their eyes. If they could, why would it lead to fratricide? What makes seeing people so much more prone to fratricide vs vehicles?

 

Ok so a TGP potentially cant see through clouds - but under the clouds you still cant see through tree cover - and good luck working out who's who when the troops are intermingled (or not).

True, even a TGP would be hard pressed to see through a dense canopy. If friendlies and enemies are close up, like fixed-bayonets style, then CAS will be of little or no help.

 

An advantage of the A-10C using a TGP is that it can verify targets given from the controllers and has far more time to observe and work suitable attack vectors better than they would down lower.

Indeed. Until the deck is 2000ft overcast. Perhaps I should've further clarified my comment and said "Having the flexibility of going low and slow will always have a CAS advantage" A WP mark with a quick correction from the JTAC for the wingman to hit, get in, get out may be the best solution.

 

Caliber size doesn't equate to muzzle velocity etc - and anything under that doesn't go through troops and vehicles you say??

I used the word suppression, which doesn't mean non-lethal....it's the highest probability outcome of 20mm-25mm guns based on wider air-air designed dispersion, smaller HEI punch and a longer min-strafe distance (compounding dispersion) based on the speed of the aircraft carrying an M-61 vs a GAU-8. Of course, 30mm loaded with the wrong ammo type for the target may be only good for suppression as well.

 

An example from Iraq 2003 - a couple of F-16s got called in under cloud cover at night so had to go to about 5000ft - the troops were intermingled with each other. The SOF controller waved a light they could pick up in NVGs and they dropped (JDAM?) bombs unguided where the guy wanted from the ref point which did the trick. An A-10 or AV-8 etc could have also done this.

Wish I knew the full story. Sounds like the pilot tricked the system to a ballistic only release. I doubt the friendly troops were within 100m of the target, unless they were shielded by some strong walls. AFAIK, 5000ft deck is fairly workable for F-16s, especially with visual IR marks vice using a TGP.

[Basher54321]

If they could, why would it lead to fratricide? What makes seeing people so much more prone to fratricide vs vehicles?

 

There is no way to visually ID people at any speed or altitude and differentiate whos who especially when troops are close so a very high probability of fratricide if you take the chance. You need complete guidance from the ground first.

 

Even in low intensity warfare - for example 2 A-10s on night CAS in OEF are given coordinates from the JTAC and then they fix the TGP on the location of the bad guys. They then spend time going though the ROE procedures and observing them along side the JTAC- then 10 mins later they got approval to strafe. Without a TGP they would have to spend a lot of effort keeping tabs on the actual location - but instead they can concentrate on more important things - like not flying into a mountain.

 

 

True, even a TGP would be hard pressed to see through a dense canopy. If friendlies and enemies are close up, like fixed-bayonets style, then CAS will be of little or no help.

 

Possibly but like below they may still want ordnance dropped near a given reference to help them out.

 

 

Wish I knew the full story. Sounds like the pilot tricked the system to a ballistic only release. I doubt the friendly troops were within 100m of the target, unless they were shielded by some strong walls. AFAIK, 5000ft deck is fairly workable for F-16s, especially with visual IR marks vice using a TGP.

 

It's a pilot account from https://ospreypublishing.com/f-16-fighting-falcon-units-of-operation-iraqi-freedom-pb - I havnt checked details but think it scared the Iraqis and allowed the SOF guys to escape.

 

Pretty sure they can still drop PGM/IAMs etc in CCIP/CCRP modes like a dumb/gravity bomb.

 

 

edit: This was a hectic and panicked situation the SOF controller was running for it but the F-16 guys (both got the Semper Viper award for this) managed to get out of him that a drop 3 clicks north of the light (firefly) would be away from friendlies so he pickled a GBU-12 in dumb bomb release (have to assume CCIP). Off target at 5000ft and staying fast 450 - 500kts due to MANPAD threat.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Basher54321

[PFunk1606688187]

This video is probably good right about now for stirring up trouble in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the vid was fake, just because its too damned amusing.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=558830810882063&set=vb.452716798160132&type=3&theater

[Basher54321]

This video is probably good right about now for stirring up trouble in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the vid was fake, just because its too damned amusing.

 

 

Without the full context it is difficult to say - might be real - however I would guess the reason he might want A-10s has nothing to do with capability and more to do with the pilots CAS skills in sorting out complex CAS situations. Several accounts in OEF where A-10s got to an area which they describe as chaos and the pilots had to take charge and organize the multiple assets already there.

[Exorcet]

This video is probably good right about now for stirring up trouble in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the vid was fake, just because its too damned amusing.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=558830810882063&set=vb.452716798160132&type=3&theater

A possible good point of discussion indeed, but anecdotal stuff always needs to be treated carefully. Who is to say that somewhere an A-10 ran into the same problem? Or that in a different situation (thicker air defenses) the A-10 wouldn't be calling in F-15's to do the job?

[javelina1]

A-10 & Chuck!

 

I'd say it's a done deal, if Chuck Norris wants the Hawg! ;) :P :thumbup:

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/chuck-norris-wants-to-save-the-a-10-2015-3

 

 

"Norris is producing and selling a T-shirt with the words “Save the A-10” on the front, and on the back, “Chuck Norris’ First Born Son was a Warthog. He cried tears of ‘BRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTT.”

[NineLine]

I want that t-shirt as well :)

 

https://www.booster.com/savea10kickstart

Edited March 24, 2015 by NineLine

[slowhand]

Sith, Thank you for that link..only 5 days left to order?

[NineLine]

Looks like it...

[rcjonessnp175]

Just ordered, great cause and cool t-shirt

[SharpeXB]

Wow. He's 75!

[Scared Donut]

A10 Training in Poland

 

Looks like the Poland armed forces is practicing on the A10.

 

This plane will never die! :D, they are too awesome.

 

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/03/26/a-10-thunderbolt-training-poland/70490504/

[WildBillKelsoe]

Could someone explain to me why Chuck Norris is the subject of mocking in Western civilisation?

Is it because of his beard or attitude or movies that are unreal in nature (like perhaps shooting 100 guys with a single zig-zagging bullet)?

[dagandolfo]

I dont think its mocking.

everyone knows chuck is as hard as a coffin nail.

 

in his movies he's a one man ass kicking machine, the reality is that he really is!

no mocking, sir chuck of norris is metal!!!!

[Kimi_uy]

WildBillKelsoe, I think you should keep it down. Or else Chuck might come knocking on your door... :p

[javelina1]

The First rule of Chuck Norris is: you do not talk about Chuck Norris.

 

When the Boogeyman goes to sleep at night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.

 

Chuck Norris once shot down a German fighter plane with his finger, by yelling, "Bang!"

 

Chuck Norris can divide by zero.

 

 

(all seriousness, it is a great charity he's got). :thumbup:

[slowhand]

^^^^:megalol::thumbup::smartass::D

[Airway]

So, tomorrow they are coming back to Spangdahlem in Germany, where they are based again since Febuary.

 

Many Germans find it hilarious that it is officially prohibited to dance in this country on this friday, called "Karfreitag" (Good Friday), because it is a Christian religious holiday, but foreign military war planes are allowed to fly and conduct missions to support NATO pressure and propaganda against our russian friends.

 

Same counts for the stunning "Dragoon Ride" they dragged through our streets, occupying the barracks they were based in once.

 

Imagine the Russians doing the same, occupying the bases they lived in, in East Germany, in the 90s. We would have WWIII already.

 

Crazy. Gives me headaches.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Airway

[SharpeXB]

In the crosshairs of this A-10 pilot: the Islamic State

 

Good account of A-10 action from Stars and Stripes

 

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/in-the-crosshairs-of-this-a-10-pilot-the-islamic-state-1.339286

[Catastrophy]

I was wishing for that just yesterday, right before I teamussed a target and tried to china hat my sensors to it and then ragequit because my painfully designated target vanished with the cams and sensors slewing to idontknowwhat.