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Is their any way to recover from an inverted spin?


marchand73
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Because you're manhandling it. It requires finesse. IIRC the CL is ahead of the CG on this aircraft, and that makes it more difficult to handle.

That said, the FM may still need some tweaks, so it may still become a bit more resistant to departure.

 

 

 

Dunno but on a related question, why does the Flanker depart so easily with the PFM?

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In this FM I wonder, that if plane will fall into inverted spin at any altitude, no matter what the pilot do with the flight controls or throttle, in DCS Su-27 did not respond. I just don't believe a plane behaving that way in RL. So that FM is simply not well done. Besides how is it possible at the same time pilot gets black out, and until the plane hits the ground - pilot cann't clear eyesight?

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In this FM I wonder, that if plane will fall into inverted spin at any altitude, no matter what the pilot do with the flight controls or throttle, in DCS Su-27 did not respond. I just don't believe a plane behaving that way in RL. So that FM is simply not well done. Besides how is it possible at the same time pilot gets black out, and until the plane hits the ground - pilot cann't clear eyesight?

 

I don't think it is black out and because humans can only sustain a few negative Gs, I think the pilot dies. When you are entering inverted spin you initial experience so many negative Gs that you dies even before you experience red out.

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My apologies if this has been covered before.

 

Is it possible to get out of the inverted spin?

Flaps to landing position and then carefully pushing and pulling stick to get plane move and get nose to ground.

 

But I believe that the inverted spin is highly unrealistic, but I believe I am totally wrong about it as well.

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Because you're manhandling it. It requires finesse. IIRC the CL is ahead of the CG on this aircraft, and that makes it more difficult to handle.

That said, the FM may still need some tweaks, so it may still become a bit more resistant to departure.

 

Could very well be, used to flying the FBMS Viper with its advanced FBW that keeps you out of trouble.

 

Tends to make you a lazy pilot.


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In this FM I wonder, that if plane will fall into inverted spin at any altitude, no matter what the pilot do with the flight controls or throttle, in DCS Su-27 did not respond. I just don't believe a plane behaving that way in RL.

 

A real plane can, but maybe it shouldn't. A lot of people fail to finesse their flying.

 

Besides how is it possible at the same time pilot gets black out, and until the plane hits the ground - pilot cann't clear eyesight?

 

A real pilot experiencing many negative G's may black out, or if he doesn't, he will experience very painful consequences. It takes a long time to recover from these things, and once it happens to someone they're no longer able to fight. The simulation can't make your head hurt or make it hard for you to concentrate, so it takes your pilot away.

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A little bit. This is observed to some degree in RL as well (different flying techniques). For simulations, people just don't know how a real aircraft should fly, and what you would experience during various maneuvers etc, so they tend to try to throw the controls around. The results are poor, of course :)

 

Could very well be, used to flying the FBMS Viper with its advanced FBT that keeps you out of trouble.

 

Tends to make you a lazy pilot.

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A little bit. This is observed to some degree in RL as well (different flying techniques). For simulations, people just don't know how a real aircraft should fly, and what you would experience during various maneuvers etc, so they tend to try to throw the controls around. The results are poor, of course :)

 

Is that respect flying the Crane is very similar to flying the Hawg...poor piloting will be punished. I'm OK with that.

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What I experience a lot with the current su-27 fm is that I can hover the plane on the nozzles for ages. Once you have 80° Nose up you can stay there without any input and it will go on VTOLing till the fuel is out. I even once managed to land it on the nozzles without much damage. If that would be rreally possible, a manouver thats is much more spetacular than the "cobra", you would see that more often performed in RL.

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How is it that so many people are entering into unrecoverable inverted spins? Just for chuckles, here's my approach.

 

After entering an inverted spin you should:

  • Smoothly throttle the engines back to idle
  • Move the control stick to neutral on both the pitch and roll axes
  • Stop any rotation with opposite rudder, then the rudder pedals go to a neutral position
  • As the nose falls below the horizon, roll upright and slowly increase airspeed
  • Once Nadia stop complaining, level off slowly being careful not to exceed the critical angle of attack

 

Nine times out of ten I'm flying again with that approach. That's the procedure I use but it's not done all at once. It's Step 1 followed by Step 2 followed by Step 3, etc. On the few occasions that it hasn't worked, it's been because of my trim settings. Trim to neutral, then try again.

 

Anyone have a short track of an unrecoverable inverted spin that they'd like to share? Perhaps it's me that's just not understanding what's going on and I'm just not entering into it as completely as you are. I'd really like to check.

 

EDIT: Or, if you'd prefer, email it to me: flankertraining(at)yahoo(dot)com


Edited by Ironhand

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From my expirience it's insufficient altitude that makes inverted spin unrecoverable.

Perhaps. But I'm assuming that isn't the issue here. I'm interested in seeing what kind of trouble people are getting into and why.

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I believe the manual has good information about this subject.

 

This. Though some huge values for possible AOA are usually quoted in relation to the Su-27, the in-game and real flight manuals feature some warnings about AOA values that should never be exceeded under certain flight regimes such as low speed etc.

 

That being said, having been a lot more gentle recently with control column inputs I've found that the aircraft is actually fairly resistant to departure. Bank and yank, especially at high altitude an/or low speed, is often a recipe for disaster. Careful and gentle application of stick inputs results in far fewer shuttle-cock moments.

 

And I say this as someone who, when the Flanker first got the PFM, almost gave up flying it in disgust at how horribly uncontrollable it felt. Be gentle, be precise and practice lots. Eventually once you get used to it you'll see that it is in fact a joy to fly and that the PFM has opened up some edge-of-envelope stuff that simply isn't available to pilots of most other aircraft, the F-15 included.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I just spent an hour of testing the recovery from inverted deep stall, trying everything I could find on forums.

 

None of them worked.

 

So far this is the only method I could figure out that seemed reliable:

 

-Throttle idle (the engine has to run, if it flames out then recovery seems extremely difficult)

-Clean configuration (no gear, flaps or airbrake)

-Fire away all missiles with launch override, otherwise recovery is more difficult or potentially impossible

-Limiter OFF

-If there is no up/down oscillation, induce one by pulling the stick fully back. This will pitch your nose towards the sky slightly.

-Increase the oscillation by repeatedly pulling the stick back (when the nose is swinging toward the sky) and releasing the stick to neutral position (when the nose is swinging toward the ground) Don't push the stick forward at any point!

-Once your nose pitch reaches -40 degrees you should be able to regain control and pull out of the dive

-This technique requires ~3000m altitude for recovery, if there are no oscillations. If there are, recovery may be faster.

-This seems to work for the full range of internal fuel, but missiles should be fired away.

 

Feel free to test this method, and if it doesn't seem to work well after all, let me know ;)

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I just spent an hour of testing the recovery from inverted deep stall...

Can you either post a short track here or email it to me at flankertraining(at)yahoo(dot)com. I ask because I have a damned hard time getting into the situation in the first place--one on which it's very difficult to recover. I'd like to see how someone is forcing the aircraft into it. I can put myself there but, then, the recovery is very straight forward. So I must not be entering as completely.

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Can you either post a short track here or email it to me at flankertraining(at)yahoo(dot)com. I ask because I have a damned hard time getting into the situation in the first place--one on which it's very difficult to recover. I'd like to see how someone is forcing the aircraft into it. I can put myself there but, then, the recovery is very straight forward. So I must not be entering as completely.

 

Sure, here you are :)

 

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Su-27 Inverted Deep Stall Entry and Recovery.trk

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Shouldnt turning on the FCS help with recovery though?

 

Doesn't seem so to me. If it is on, the elevons make only tiny tiny movements with full stick deflections. Doesn't seem very useful at all, and in that case recovery seems to be more a matter of luck, having a good combo of oscillation and center of gravity.

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How is it that so many people are entering into unrecoverable inverted spins? Just for chuckles, here's my approach.

 

After entering an inverted spin you should:

  • Smoothly throttle the engines back to idle
  • Move the control stick to neutral on both the pitch and roll axes
  • Stop any rotation with opposite rudder, then the rudder pedals go to a neutral position
  • As the nose falls below the horizon, roll upright and slowly increase airspeed
  • Once Nadia stop complaining, level off slowly being careful not to exceed the critical angle of attack

 

Nine times out of ten I'm flying again with that approach. That's the procedure I use but it's not done all at once. It's Step 1 followed by Step 2 followed by Step 3, etc. On the few occasions that it hasn't worked, it's been because of my trim settings. Trim to neutral, then try again.

 

Anyone have a short track of an unrecoverable inverted spin that they'd like to share? Perhaps it's me that's just not understanding what's going on and I'm just not entering into it as completely as you are. I'd really like to check.

 

EDIT: Or, if you'd prefer, email it to me: flankertraining(at)yahoo(dot)com

 

The 'step 1 then step 2' aspect of this good advice appears to be important. When the Flanker has departed, or is operating right at the bleeding edge of control, single-axis inputs appear to be important and it does not like multiple-axis control inputs at all. It appears as if secondary effects of control and cross-axis effects are amplified or at least magnified in these situations.

System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

 

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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Shouldnt turning on the FCS help with recovery though?

 

Since the FCS attempts to adjust the control surfaces to achieve a certain # of Gs or a specified rate of roll, being in an inverted stall (where neither is possible to achieve) would only confuse the FCS.

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