What constitutes a -good- online pilot?

[capttrob]

It's no fun if it isn't a challenge...air defenses are in most servers I fly in, but even if there were none it's next to impossible to get close enough in a 25 (having no radar), half the time I get shot down by even the most green pilot with any kind of BVR skills before I even reach their base, give it a try in a 25t... can you say sitting duck? er... flying duck?

 

I dont know too much about the 25T (except that its a slippery design ;)). But i've shot down a few russian fighters with an A-10 online after they tracked me down. No such thing as a sitting duck imo. :D

[Red Star]

edit: Its also hilarious when some pilots throw flames because the pilot that shot him down "used too many missles". I love to respond (even if it wasnt directed at me), "Stand still next time and your opponent will only use one missle."....... silence on the freq.... ;)

Yeah you got to admit those pilots really show their skill and tactics off when they spam off 6-8 ARH missiles in quick succession on a target such as a A-10 or a Su-25. Oh how they must rub their hands in glee when their scope shows a target like this and how they must feel so warm and fuzzy to bag such a prized target with so few missiles. :disgust:

 

People that on one hand moan to ED that their beloved jet isn't modelled correctly, that this is supposed to be a sim and that all the flaws in said beloved jet (such as radar etc) should be fixed or their jets missiles are porked (because ED are anti-west :huh:) before a heli sim gets released. Yet on the other hand they don't bother in learning proper tactics. I can just imagine what would happen to a real life pilot when he gets back to base with his pylons empty and turns to his commander and says "I bagged a Mi-24 today"

 

It's stuff like this (and comments like this) that shows that Hyperlobby is going to the dogs. Just one big air quake. Though major kudos for the beefing up of air defences and Resurrecting the A2G days :thumbup: There may be hope for HL yet.

[capttrob]

Yeah you got to admit those pilots really show their skill and tactics off when they spam off 6-8 ARH missiles in quick succession on a target such as a A-10 or a Su-25..

 

Sounds like a scenario that can be easily dodged since they are all in "quick succession". Not to mention your enemy is now out of missles. Easy prey imo.

 

Regardless, newbies will always be coming into this community. Instead of flaming him for "spamraam-ing you", how about asking if he needs help understanding the program? Sure, you may get a 13 yr old sarcastic remark as a reply... but, heres a little well known secret, LockOn is a game where anyone on the face of the Earth has access. Try not to get too upset when noobs blast all their missles in your direction and learn how to use it to your adantage. If you were flying a Su-25 in real life, and an F-15 launched 8 AMRAAM's at you in quick succession, will you send that pilot a letter calling him a noob after he shot you down? Pllain and simple, you got shot down within the rules, by a noob.. and you dont like it. Deal with it and adapt. It can be used to your advantage.... :v:

[capttrob]

I can just imagine what would happen to a real life pilot when he gets back to base with his pylons empty and turns to his commander and says "I bagged a Mi-24 today"

 

 

I see you edited you post while i was responding. Do you know what an American CO would say? "Thanks for getting that Mi-24" (I suppose in the old USSR, the pilot would be shot for using too many missles... lol ;) ). Think the Mi-24 driver is thinking, "What a noob.. he used all his missles on me."... Not likely... know why? The Mi-24 driver is dead, and the -15 driver removed the threat while returning to base and sleeping in a warm bed that night. Who do you want to be? I suppose you'd rather be dead in the Mi-24 just so you could be thinking "What a noob that 15 driver was" in your after-life...lol... but hey...you may be dead from a noob spam-raaming you.. but you got your pride.. right? :thumbup: :v:

[Red Star]

No I am not someone who is whinning because I was downed by a noob. They weren't noobs. Noobs spamming missiles I can understand but not veteran squad members.

[capttrob]

You know how many missles he has... He won.. you lost. Suck it up. There arent any rules that say how fast or slow you should launch your missles. If you cannot dodge 8 missles coming at you in rapid succussion,,, i got news for you.. you are the noob... ;)

 

Online pilots (and military pilots) will use any means necessary to get a kill... and so will you. Deal with it....

 

Not trying to flame here... :D

[GGTharos]

Actually both the vulching and spamming (FROM BOTH SIDES) is a symptom of how the games are played.

 

I have no problem with people who can get in, blow stuff up, and get out in terms of vulching, like Zuki seems to be doing - it's war. I have a problem with the exact behavior capt. is describing though.

 

The reason this - and spamming - are happening is, IMHO, the following:

 

NO STRUCTURE.

 

There is no incentive for anyone to follow any type of mission. If they are destroyed, they simply respawn - all this allows the lone-wolves to just do their thing, and go away. Like in Quake.

 

More specifically: Spamming missiles is the result of not having to stay combat viable for a given amount of time. You can shoot'em off, run back, rearm, come back, and you don'tr eally care what the other side does in the meantime. This is fairly typical thinking online.

 

Vulching, two reasons: People like to put down the other side, so if they can, they'll go over there, orbit, blow everyone up.

A slight more rare but more legit reason: Guy bombs you on your base, you respawn right away ... if he tries to run away isntead of killing you again, he's easy prey. Could be fixed by a special respawn delay (if enemy aircraft within 20km, respawn delay = 4 min) or something like that.

 

Basically, the lack of organization and incentive to accomplish a mission is the endemic problem which fuels both behaviors.

 

THe solution? Probably a good DC, with -GOOD- AI for air AND ground/SAMs.

 

Until then, frequent map rotation.

[capttrob]

 

Until then, frequent map rotation.

 

I know i bitch at 504 to add more time for their big maps. However, you bring up a good point with your above quote. I didnt really think about it before you brought it up, but now i realize the frequent map rotation on the 504 Server.

 

 

With that said, players should constantly remind themselves that this is a game! If someone is spam-ramming you and you dont like it, by all means.. switch servers. If you see it as a challenge, by all means, develope tactics. If you see 4 bandits chasing a teammate that is RTB, you can choose to run or engage. But always remember, this is a game, entertainment, something to enjoy, have fun!. I choose to engage.... yet i dont fault anyone if those 4 bandits spam me with their missles. I expect it (ie. prepare for the worst, hope for the best). They hold a certain amount of missles. So, therefore, they may launch one after another till they run out. Its their choice, and its up to me to anticipate. If i get killed, i get a new plane. :yes:

 

However, i will announce my biggest pet peeve for online play... Sam Huggers! I understand if a team and/or player may be out numbered and wants to stay close to their Sam batteries... but if the teams are somewhat even and you are hugging your sams, you are taking this game way too seriously...:pilotfly:

 

I've noticed i have zero respect for Sam huggers if teams are somewhat even. Not that my respect means anything..... :v:

[GGTharos]

I wouldn't actually blame say an A-10 or Su-25T who retreated tot he nearest SAM-cover during their mission ... although to understand what I am thinking of you would have to know exactly how SAMs on the 44th are deployed.

 

On the other hand, when you have fighters that are -not- outnumbered, well ehhh ... why are they hugging the sams and not protecting their bombers?

 

If they have no bombers to protect, why aren't they going out to take out the enemy's bombers?

 

If there are no enemy bombers, then ... WTF? GROW A PAIR!

 

 

;)

[brewber19]

If there are no enemy bombers, then ... WTF? GROW A PAIR!

;)

 

ROFL....I like it GG....as a Su25/T pilot its a unique challenge on an airquake server...even the 504 server sometimes...but if a fighter can't smack a Frog down they reeeeeaally need to develop their skills :D

 

Its not like we're "defenseless" exactly, but man do I feel like I've got a glow-in-the-dark target painted on my back.

 

Anyways, I aint got a clue what constitutes a "good" online pilot but...the people I enjoy flying with most are:

 

504 Smudge

504 Triggerhappy

504 Wolf

504 BigTonka

504 Zorlac

Star80

NotiA10 (even if he is blue :thumbup: )

Dynamo

 

Why? Because they're decent fliers, like to team-up and work co-operatively and can have a laugh even when we get smacked down when we're so close to target. Oh yeah, they use Teamspeak, which makes a huge difference.

 

Thats MHO anyhow.

[Megile]

A good pilot will kill you, then laugh at you on comms.

[GGTharos]

ROFL....I like it GG....as a Su25/T pilot its a unique challenge on an airquake server...even the 504 server sometimes...but if a fighter can't smack a Frog down they reeeeeaally need to develop their skills :D

 

Its not like we're "defenseless" exactly, but man do I feel like I've got a glow-in-the-dark target painted on my back.

 

It isn't necessarily skills, it's sometimes just plain circumstances and attitude :)

 

 

Circumstances: Got hit in the face when I decided to go low looking for frogs in the dark, and my radar decided to drop EVERYTHING. Bang. And I had;em, too. Ah well.

 

 

Attitude: Ohh, poor little froggy ... accelerate at full speed, hunt him down, shoot the little ... anyway, he turns into me (good move, since he had nowhere else to go) dodges my 120 (sigh ... well, that -really- shouldn't be happening head-on, and at those ranges, but what can ya do?) and smacks me in the face with a 73 - It was a prox, I saw it coming and tried to evade - anyway, I came around to shoot him again but his friend in a mig got me.

 

 

And frankly, I usually eat frogs for breakfast - so two things here, loss of SA and underestimation of your opponent as well as use of impatient, crappy tactics will do you in.

 

It's not about skills always ... just attitude. ;)

 

 

Anyways, I aint got a clue what constitutes a "good" online pilot but...the people I enjoy flying with most are:

 

504 Smudge

504 Triggerhappy

504 Wolf

504 BigTonka

504 Zorlac

Star80

NotiA10 (even if he is blue :thumbup: )

Dynamo

 

Why? Because they're decent fliers, like to team-up and work co-operatively and can have a laugh even when we get smacked down when we're so close to target. Oh yeah, they use Teamspeak, which makes a huge difference.

 

Thats MHO anyhow.

 

Hehe :D Well, good work :D

[D-Scythe]

Just one point...people wouldn't be spamming 8 missiles in a row if modern radar guided missiles were modelled properly. With missiles like the AIM-120B/C, MICA EM/IR and the R-77, the chances of survival for a missile duel between flights of aircraft in the NEZ should be less than 20%. Players should be dropping like flies if they stray within 6 to 8 miles of any enemy fighter with such weapons.

 

Sure, spamming is bad, but can you really blame spammers if it is possible to dodge 8 missiles simultaneously? I gaurantee that if it was possible to dodge 8 AMRAAMs fired within their NEZ IRL, the U.S. would scrap the entire program (and the billions that went into it) in a heartbeat.

[GGTharos]

No, they would still be spamming ... they would -not- be spamming if the proper firing delay was implement, or at least not as much. It takes some time to spin up the gyros etc.

 

They would launch 2 missiles in the space they would have normally launched 8 (or even only 1) with this. And they usually launch'em all just before they turn around to leave.

[D-Scythe]

No, they would still be spamming ... they would -not- be spamming if the proper firing delay was implement, or at least not as much. It takes some time to spin up the gyros etc.

 

What firing delay? AMRAAMs were designed to be launched simultaneously at multiple targets anyway - I'd imagine that every missile on-board an F-15 will be ready to be fired as soon as the Eagle enters one of its A/A modes. What's the difference between firing multiple missiles at a single target in short succession or firing multiple missiles at multiple targets in short succession? Sure, there would probably be some delay, which IMO would be minimal, but in any case the exact time figure is likely to be classified so it can't be modelled anyway except through guessing (and ED explicitly stated that that was to be avoided).

 

Such a solution would create a lose-lose scenario. And worse, you don't have any figures or proof to back you up.

 

And why would anyone spam if their missiles hit their targets reliably in the NEZ? It would be a waste of missiles. A good example of this is Falcon 4.0 - yes, active radar missiles seem a bit over-modelled, but you never see the issue of spamming even brought up because it would be a waste of perfectly good AIM-120s (or R-77s, MICAs) to do so.

[GGTharos]

Actually, it has been stated by a USAF pilot to have been about three seconds ... and that this has decreased some since some version of the AMRAAM. ;)

 

IIRC it is from the splash-two interview.

 

And why would anyone spam if their missiles hit their targets reliably in the NEZ? It would be a waste of missiles. A good example of this is Falcon 4.0 - yes, active radar missiles seem a bit over-modelled, but you never see the issue of spamming even brought up because it would be a waste of perfectly good AIM-120s (or R-77s, MICAs) to do so.

 

Bull. People do it because they can. They did it when the AMRAAM homed a whole lot better, too. Fly up, spam, split-s and leave.

[D-Scythe]

Actually, it has been stated by a USAF pilot to have been about three seconds ... and that this has decreased some since some version of the AMRAAM. ;)

 

IIRC it is from the splash-two interview.

 

Okay, I'll take your word on this one, but 3 seconds is hardly "short succession" IMO :p

 

Bull. People do it because they can. They did it when the AMRAAM homed a whole lot better, too. Fly up, spam, split-s and leave.

 

Firstly, when did AMRAAM home "a whole lot better" in LOMAC? There were always issues with its performance from day one. I'd say it performed best in V1.02, but even then it wasn't that much better. Secondly, people "can" do a lot of things, but if it doesn't make logical sense, why would they? Sure, they may occassionally do something illogical, just for kicks or simply to piss other people off, but why waste 8 AMRAAMs on one target when 2 AMRAAMs are just as likely to get the job done? Then instead of returning to base, three more such attacks could be made without returning to base and starting to spam-cycle anew.

[GGTharos]

D-Scythe, I don't want to get into a discussion about human nature ... I've played online quite a bit, and those who spam do it BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

It doesn't really matter exactly -what- is going through their minds ... I saw someone whose tactic in the 33 is to close to 5nm dodging your 120's and let loose with all6 heaters onboard, often taking a 120 in the face, for example. This person use the tactic quite often.

 

Others will spam their 120's because they think it increases the Pk (it doesn't do so by -too- much) and yet others have nothing better to do.

 

 

Most people don't spam, but what I'm saying is that your assesment that people will stop spamming is bull. I've even played with someone on a LAN and the guy just god sheer joy out of emtying his rails and then running away.

 

You're right. It -isn't- logical. People aren't computers, and gamers aren't disciplined military people typically either. :P

 

 

There's simply no real incentive to not spam ... and some people are anal enough to spam -even- when there's good incentives not to do so.

 

Right up there with malicious TKers etcetc - but those are all a subset of those who don't do it maliciously.

[D-Scythe]

Most people don't spam, but what I'm saying is that your assesment that people will stop spamming is bull. I've even played with someone on a LAN and the guy just god sheer joy out of emtying his rails and then running away.

 

You're right. It -isn't- logical. People aren't computers, and gamers aren't disciplined military people typically either. :P

 

Hmm, I suppose. Although, if it isn't logical, I can't see how such tactics can be fun or realistic either, and sort of defeats the purpose of a simulation.

 

For the record, I didn't say spamming would stop completely, just that it would be reduced. Surely, there are people who spam just for the heck of it, but I bet there are also spammers who spam because they believe that they won't get the kill otherwise (or, as you put it, people who think it increases their PK).

 

There's simply no real incentive to not spam ... and some people are anal enough to spam -even- when there's good incentives not to do so.

 

Right up there with malicious TKers etcetc - but those are all a subset of those who don't do it maliciously.

 

Hmm, I was just basing my perspective on sims with deadlier AMRAAMs, like F4:AF. Spamming doesn't seem to be an issue with those sims at all.

[GGTharos]

With that I agree - that it would be reduced, yeah.

 

As for AF, there's not enough vs play from what I've seen for too many bad habits to happen ... AFAIK. Plus it's a pretty hard core group to begin with. People who spamraam probably fail to get into it at all ...

[Pilotasso]

This has been debated to death. Why complain? I have been killed by spam about 2000 times since the game came out. More often than not, one missile would have donne the job anyway and the others were a total waste, rendering the shooter toothless and prone to be killed unless he can outrun everyone else. I have seen spammers meet their demise like this N times and their kill ratio is usualy apalling.

 

Let them Spam at will, I get alot of kills by dodging all the missiles with one voley of chaff and flares and then chase him off to his doom afterwords. Even yesterday I did this.

 

High scorers usualy time their shots. I do it for migs (because is the most chosen plane) knowing that after 1 or 2 missiles he will have his countermeasures depleated. After that hes as good as dead unless he has a wingman to assist in the escape. If I spammed all my missiles all I would get was an 8 missile waste for the same amount of countermeasures.

[Kenan]

"Oh, let the first here who never spammed with missiles online, raise his hand!"

:D

[Pilotasso]

Im am not sure what your trying to pull with that...:suspect:

[Kenan]

Im am not sure what your trying to pull with that...:suspect:

 

So..you're not going to raise your hand? Mmm kay..

[GGTharos]

Remember when you could launch your missiles after you were 'killed'? Everyone spammed back then ;)