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Beating the refueling horse to its death


Pinefang

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^ Thank you for validating that I am the rightest right person in the thread. All you other right people can suck it. :P

 

In all seriousness though its just a headache trying to figure out why we can't get something right that seems so easy. At a certain point we must surrender to "I am not very good because I need more practice" and do the boring bit of flying boringly, that is if you want to master it, no reason you must. AAR isn't required for the A-10 given how most missions are made.

 

Do you have any buddies you can fly with regularly? If you do you should try and do lots and lots and lots of formation flying. That'll make sitting behind the tanker seem like taking a break (until the hook up of course). Using that doc you can basically engineer flying for 2 hours while spending almost all of it working on your formation flying skills. Maybe that'll be the one that pushes things forward for you.

 

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=76

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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Hi,

After reading this i just had to try a refuel after not doing one in a couple of months.

Man, it is tough. I got through it but finding the sweet spot took a bit, with multiple hookups and releases.

I put my own extension on recently and the movements are smoother with less porpoising and side to side. I have never used curves or dead zones and i do fine for my setup.

It can frustrate the life out of you. You are a rock behind the tanker right up to the point of hook up then you seem to suddenly go spastic.

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Two things are missing in flying a sim, any sim atm... that of the "flying by the seat of the pants" and accurate depth perception.

hardware wise, its in the quality of stick being used, bearing in mind most desktop sticks are way shorter than their rl counterpart,... meaning a small movement on the dt stick equals a largish movement on a long in sim stick. So , what you do, is just learn to use to guide the stick using only your finger tips (the MS FB stick was great for this)

 

You need to learn how to trim for level flight properly (this involves throttle setting and flap setting, for getting it right), with the refuel flap open before getting anywhere near the refueller.

 

Nice and gentle will get you a lot further than trying to adjust for the gyrations, when on connection... the hard part is getting it into the slot first

City Hall is easier to fight, than a boys' club - an observation :P

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us." - Jefferson

"Give a group of potheads a bunch of weed and nothing to smoke out of, and they'll quickly turn into engineers... its simply amazing."

EVGA X99 FTW, EVGA GTX980Ti FTW, i7 5930K, 16Gb Corsair Dominator 2666Hz, Windows 7 Ultimate 64Bit, Intel 520 SSD x 2, Samsung PX2370 monitor and all the other toys

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"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar"

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Two things are missing in flying a sim, any sim atm... that of the "flying by the seat of the pants" and accurate depth perception.

hardware wise, its in the quality of stick being used, bearing in mind most desktop sticks are way shorter than their rl counterpart,... meaning a small movement on the dt stick equals a largish movement on a long in sim stick. So , what you do, is just learn to use to guide the stick using only your finger tips (the MS FB stick was great for this)

 

You need to learn how to trim for level flight properly (this involves throttle setting and flap setting, for getting it right), with the refuel flap open before getting anywhere near the refueller.

 

Nice and gentle will get you a lot further than trying to adjust for the gyrations, when on connection... the hard part is getting it into the slot first

 

I wonder if using the oculus rift makes any difference with this.

The large extension sure made a difference in regards to more precise movements.

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I'm sure a true "3D word view" would make an immense difference (easier to gauge better as to just where that dang nozzle is, and relative position to the tanker's/ cockpit line up points), but only partially considering no real world feeling of what the back end of the plane is doing being available, as yet.

there's a difference to being able to actually feel the plane drop, so click up and feeling the plane rise, so click down and only being able to see it - there's a time lag... so the flyer has to able to pre-empt that, those visual clues.

 

the trick is to line up to the tanker and let the nozzle drop in, but its in the getting to the and holding that right position


Edited by Wolf Rider

City Hall is easier to fight, than a boys' club - an observation :P

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us." - Jefferson

"Give a group of potheads a bunch of weed and nothing to smoke out of, and they'll quickly turn into engineers... its simply amazing."

EVGA X99 FTW, EVGA GTX980Ti FTW, i7 5930K, 16Gb Corsair Dominator 2666Hz, Windows 7 Ultimate 64Bit, Intel 520 SSD x 2, Samsung PX2370 monitor and all the other toys

-

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar"

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HOTAS extensions.

 

I could never refuel inflight till I bought a 100mm extension for the HOTAS. It makes delicate flying possible and allows the suble control needed for inflight refuelling.

 

I bought mine off this forum (from Wasy100) and can really recommend it for quality and workmanship (he even supplies the extension cable needed!).

 

Just search for HOTAS extension and it should come to the top of the list.

 

I chose the 100mm and think it was the best option. The stick still centres itself, but only just. I think that the 120mm is for dedicated helo jocks who really need the supreme control.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ivan.

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can do it on a standard Warthog Hotas... just takes learning to trim/ throttle properly, and using just finger tips to guide the stick

City Hall is easier to fight, than a boys' club - an observation :P

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us." - Jefferson

"Give a group of potheads a bunch of weed and nothing to smoke out of, and they'll quickly turn into engineers... its simply amazing."

EVGA X99 FTW, EVGA GTX980Ti FTW, i7 5930K, 16Gb Corsair Dominator 2666Hz, Windows 7 Ultimate 64Bit, Intel 520 SSD x 2, Samsung PX2370 monitor and all the other toys

-

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar"

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I have the Oculus Rift DK2 and it does add a huge amount of depth and movement perception. To put it into context; it adds so much to DCS that my inner ear expected movement on turns and it gave me vertigo.

 

Concerning extensions; I wonder if anyone can explain how using a stick extension is necessary when the axis setup will allow you to emulate a longer stick. I don't dispute the use of an extension, but I am curious about the benefits.

It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm

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(...) the axis setup will allow you to emulate a longer stick.

Well, it does not.

 

If you use a curve, you trade precision in the center for precision at the outer edges of the axis. This is not how it is in RL.

 

If you change the saturation, you trade precision in the center for a shorter overall range of the axis.

 

But an extension will not change the characteristics of the axis (all linear, not cut off somewhere), but allows for finer control: to archieve the same input to DCS, you have to deflect the stick more when using an extension - that way you can make smaller adjustments better . Ii.e. if your standard stick would need 1-2 mm deflection for a certain maneuver, with a stick extension you will make the very same input with, for example 10-20 mm deflection. What is easier to archieve/control?

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I have a stick extension and 20% EXPO as curve - and I am fine with it.

Curves are a difficult topic, some people love them, some hates them. A friend of mine and I, flyes rc helicopter - he wasn't able to fly with a curve, but for me, 30% was perfect...

So, do what you want and what's feel better for you.

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That makes perfect sense Flagrum, thanks. So if I want more precision I install an extension, or deal with compromises inherent to altering my axis setup. The other choice of course, is to surrender to the lack of precision and just learn to fly that way, as many others have stated in this thread. My personal choice has been to deal with the pros and cons of an axis setup that took weeks to perfect, and learn to fly with that. If I had to do it over again I may have leaned toward an extension instead.

 

Well, it does not.

 

If you use a curve, you trade precision in the center for precision at the outer edges of the axis. This is not how it is in RL.

 

If you change the saturation, you trade precision in the center for a shorter overall range of the axis.

 

But an extension will not change the characteristics of the axis (all linear, not cut off somewhere), but allows for finer control: to archieve the same input to DCS, you have to deflect the stick more when using an extension - that way you can make smaller adjustments better . Ii.e. if your standard stick would need 1-2 mm deflection for a certain maneuver, with a stick extension you will make the very same input with, for example 10-20 mm deflection. What is easier to archieve/control?

It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm

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Getting an extension is like getting a new stick.

ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:

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for the sake of OP, I'm going to post a video with my curve settings, and my hands in a window, magnified, on stick AND throttle, and demonstrate that it takes practice.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Bill you had better check the forum rules. From your description it seems like you may need to add the following message with your video.

Video contains content that might not be suitable for all users!

Lol, yeah! +1

 

If he is going to show us his curves, with his hands on his stick, he better put a warning up front! :o)

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lol ok I will.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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I have the Oculus Rift DK2 and it does add a huge amount of depth and movement perception. To put it into context; it adds so much to DCS that my inner ear expected movement on turns and it gave me vertigo.

 

Concerning extensions; I wonder if anyone can explain how using a stick extension is necessary when the axis setup will allow you to emulate a longer stick. I don't dispute the use of an extension, but I am curious about the benefits.

 

 

Hi,

the benefit for me was easier movement of stick.I don't get wrist fatigue from the strong spring action like i used to. Sticktion is also a non issue with the extension.Once i re greased and added the extension it was another stick altogether. I don't fight the stick anymore.

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What makes this mod worth $490? Do you personally use it? Can you give your impressions?

 

Screw the curves just get this if you have a TM WH. What they use in real simulators to give the feel of the plane.

 

http://www.alasrojas.com/3.0/?page_id=662

It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm

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I think a pressure sensitive mod wouldn't help in this case.

 

I don't see why not. F-16s have a few mm of stick throw and thats it. Pressure is specifically what they use. Its the only control solution that I know of that stands a chance of being replicated on a simmer's desktop.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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What they use in real simulators to give the feel of the plane.

 

http://www.alasrojas.com/3.0/?page_id=662

 

Which 'real simulators' use a pressure sensitive stick, rather than what is actually in the aircraft, to give the 'feel of the plane'.?

ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:

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Which 'real simulators' use a pressure sensitive stick, rather than what is actually in the aircraft, to give the 'feel of the plane'.?

I've gone through the decription of FSSB R3. There's no form of force feedback implemented so why use the wording? :huh:

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Which 'real simulators' use a pressure sensitive stick, rather than what is actually in the aircraft, to give the 'feel of the plane'.?

 

Well they do not have a hydraulic system in a simulator so from my understanding this gives you the same feel as a hydraulic system. Sorry no I do not have this I do not even have a TM WH I use an X55. The WH was reviewed to be a very hard to move stick plus the cost.


Edited by Stewart

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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PineFang what is the hardest part you are having with AAR? The biggest problem I had at first was controlling speed I would move too far in on the boom or pull it all the way out. I have found if you stay in the pre connect area and get trimmed to fly level and figure out what the speed of the tanker is then use that as your neutral point. Now use three positions on your throttle that point where you are now one point forward and one point back.

 

Now move the throttle a hair forward no more the aircraft will lag a couple sec before it moves forward. Once you start moving forward go back to neutral it will move forward a little now move it to the back position until it looks like you are going the same speed again then back to neutral. Practice this before hooking up.

 

Once you have the three positions down and have a feel for it move to forward position and move into the booms location before you get to it move the throttle back to the neutral position remember with the lag it takes the aircraft a couple sec to respond. Once you get hooked use the same positions. Once the boom starts to move in go to the back position until the second it start moving back the back to neutral. Try to stay in the green part of the boom. Remember you will be doing this with the throttle almost constantly.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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