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How is f-14 maneuverability?


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I doubt the Cat will make so much of a difference in levels of play between the 4th gen jets. Right now, the F15, Su27, M2k, and F/A18 can all win a fight amongst themselves on any given day, depending on who flies better.

 

I don't think the Cat will be thrashing everything in sight, but I do think that it holding its own will earmark it for the above comments from the deniers who continue to believe Yahoo answers claims of "only an interceptor," and similar nonsense.

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

It's not that the F-14 will be so much better, it's that it won't be any worse, and that is what a lot of naysayers will have a hard time swallowing.

 

 

There's been so much dismissive criticism born of disinformation that the age old myth of "F-14 is an absolute brick" has become accepted as fact, and people will be in for a shocking wake up call the first time a Tomcat out turns them.

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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Exactly.

 

 

It's not that the F-14 will be so much better, it's that it won't be any worse, and that is what a lot of naysayers will have a hard time swallowing.

 

 

There's been so much dismissive criticism born of disinformation that the age old myth of "F-14 is an absolute brick" has become accepted as fact, and people will be in for a shocking wake up call the first time a Tomcat out turns them.

 

Truth.

Viewpoints are my own.

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Exactly.

 

 

It's not that the F-14 will be so much better, it's that it won't be any worse, and that is what a lot of naysayers will have a hard time swallowing.

 

 

There's been so much dismissive criticism born of disinformation that the age old myth of "F-14 is an absolute brick" has become accepted as fact, and people will be in for a shocking wake up call the first time a Tomcat out turns them.

 

This right here.:thumbup:

Strike

vCVW-11

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i7-9700K OC 5GHz| MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON | 32GB DDR4 3200 | GTX 1070 | Samsung SSD | Samsung Odyssey+ VR | HOTAS Warthog

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Exactly.

 

 

It's not that the F-14 will be so much better, it's that it won't be any worse, and that is what a lot of naysayers will have a hard time swallowing.

 

 

There's been so much dismissive criticism born of disinformation that the age old myth of "F-14 is an absolute brick" has become accepted as fact, and people will be in for a shocking wake up call the first time a Tomcat out turns them.

 

:thumbup: One other thing to consider. Another pair of eyes in the backseat to help you keep tabs on what's what.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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I doubt the Cat will make so much of a difference in levels of play between the 4th gen jets. Right now, the F15, Su27, M2k, and F/A18 can all win a fight amongst themselves on any given day, depending on who flies better.

 

I don't think the Cat will be thrashing everything in sight, but I do think that it holding its own will earmark it for the above comments from the deniers who continue to believe Yahoo answers claims of "only an interceptor," and similar nonsense.

 

At the end of the day, they can complain all they want. ED won't bend to some small coterie that makes claims based on feelings rather than facts.

 

All these Hornet Bros would probably start going nuts when they saw my F5 outturning a Flanker in a sustained rate turn to get guns on him (because they'd ignore that I'm doing 600 kts to make it happen).

 

I agree with the statement that right now, everything seems pretty balanced between 4th gen jets. They all have their own special characteristics and way you have to fly them, but it comes down to who is flying them. To me it seems like that's the way it should be. I hope the F-14 doesn't come along and mess that up because it's better than everything at everything like everybody on the hype train is expecting.

 

I hope HB makes the Tomcat so it's like all the other 4th gen modules. A module with it's own unique quirks and characteristics that can hold it's own against all the other 4th gen modules when flown well.


Edited by Heavy-D69420
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I agree with the statement that right now, everything seems pretty balanced between 4th gen jets. They all have their own special characteristics and way you have to fly them, but it comes down to who is flying them. To me it seems like that's the way it should be. I hope the F-14 doesn't come along and mess that up because it's better than everything at everything like everybody on the hype train is expecting.

 

I hope HB makes the Tomcat so it's like all the other 4th gen modules. A module with it's own unique quirks and characteristics that can hold it's own against all the other 4th gen modules when flown well.

 

I hope the get the flight model correct and it performs as it should irrespective of whether that is better or worse than any other aircraft.

Sons of Dogs, Come Eat Flesh

Clan Cameron

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I hope the get the flight model correct and it performs as it should irrespective of whether that is better or worse than any other aircraft.

 

Yes. This is a simulator not WarThunder where there needs to be some kind of balance or everyone cries. (granted WT is garbage and they suck at balancing)

Strike

vCVW-11

http://www.vcvw-11.com

 

i7-9700K OC 5GHz| MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON | 32GB DDR4 3200 | GTX 1070 | Samsung SSD | Samsung Odyssey+ VR | HOTAS Warthog

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"Since the Su-27 can out-turn, and in most situations out accelerate, the Tomcat..." pp.92.

 

Rockwell, D. (1999). How To Fly and Fight In The F-14 Tomcat. New York, NY: Jane's

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Drag it slow to where the F-14 will out turn a Viper (roughly 300 knots).

Pretty much so! :thumbup:

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Drag it slow to where the F-14 will out turn a Viper (roughly 300 knots).

 

Actually I've read the whole 49 pages of this thread so far, and although I know this bird from the 90's already (movies, PC games, magazines, books), certainly I've now learned even more about its BFM capabilities.

 

And to be honest I didn't expect it (F-14A) to fare so well when dogfighting.

(Never doubted it still could pose real difficulties to an F-15 though.)

 

Sure the info (technical discussions / EM diagrams / etc.) on the first 20 or 30 pages of this thread, do give a new point of view of what the Tomcat can do.

 

But in my mind a question still poses:

How / what would the F-14A pilot do, if the F-16 (any version) does start its very best maximum Sustained Turn Rate 2 circle fight, and keep pressing it, trying to bear his nose on the Tomcat ?

 

Everyone feel free to share your opinion.

HANGAR

JETS  FlamingCliffs 3 | MiG-21 bis | Mirage 2000C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | F/A-18C

HELIS :  Mi-8 MTV2

 

... only recently using the full benefits of Windows 10.

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Actually I've read the whole 49 pages of this thread so far, and although I know this bird from the 90's already (movies, PC games, magazines, books), certainly I've now learned even more about its BFM capabilities.

 

And to be honest I didn't expect it (F-14A) to fare so well when dogfighting.

(Never doubted it still could pose real difficulties to an F-15 though.)

 

Sure the info (technical discussions / EM diagrams / etc.) on the first 20 or 30 pages of this thread, do give a new point of view of what the Tomcat can do.

 

But in my mind a question still poses:

How / what would the F-14A pilot do, if the F-16 (any version) does start its very best maximum Sustained Turn Rate 2 circle fight, and keep pressing it, trying to bear his nose on the Tomcat ?

 

Everyone feel free to share your opinion.

 

Keeping it short:

 

An F-14A would be in trouble against a properly flown F-16 due to the A cat series simply lacking the power necessary to sustain tight maneuvers, but it will be able to pull a tighter initial radius turn which can allow it to either pull off the first shot after a neutral merge or escape an initial attack from behind. After that though the F-16's superior sustained performance will basically force the F-14 pilot to rely on mistakes from the F-16 pilot in order to survive.

 

The situation is quite a bit different in the case of the GE powered F-14 B & D however, this would be a close fight if both aircraft were in a similar configuration. In this case the F-16 pilot would in general be best off sticking making great use of vertical maneuvers, where'as the F-14 pilot naturally would try to drag the fight as much into the horizontal as possible in the hopes of getting the fight below 300-350 kts in speed where it enjoys a big advantage.

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Keeping it short:

 

An F-14A would be in trouble against a properly flown F-16 due to the A cat series simply lacking the power necessary to sustain tight maneuvers, but it will be able to pull a tighter initial radius turn which can allow it to either pull off the first shot after a neutral merge or escape an initial attack from behind. After that though the F-16's superior sustained performance will basically force the F-14 pilot to rely on mistakes from the F-16 pilot in order to survive.

 

The situation is quite a bit different in the case of the GE powered F-14 B & D however, this would be a close fight if both aircraft were in a similar configuration. In this case the F-16 pilot would in general be best off sticking making great use of vertical maneuvers, where'as the F-14 pilot naturally would try to drag the fight as much into the horizontal as possible in the hopes of getting the fight below 300-350 kts in speed where it enjoys a big advantage.

 

Thank you for your time Hummingbird.

 

Very good - the kind of details I'm interested in, that's an analysis that sets it straight!

HANGAR

JETS  FlamingCliffs 3 | MiG-21 bis | Mirage 2000C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | F/A-18C

HELIS :  Mi-8 MTV2

 

... only recently using the full benefits of Windows 10.

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The big engine f-14s spiraling upward will usually out turn the F-16 based on reading and discussing at the F-14 association. This is usually around 250 knots.

 

Regardless of which variant there is a snapshot opportunity for the F-14 to get on the F-16. However, the f-16s energy retention is eye-watering! Of course, it's low speeds it is handicapped by the AOA limiter which means point ability is nil.

 

I suggest you go on YouTube and look up Okie . He is a F-14 pilot talks about dog fighting the F-14 against the F-16 in the a

 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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The big engine f-14s spiraling upward will usually out turn the F-16 based on reading and discussing at the F-14 association. This is usually around 250 knots.

 

Regardless of which variant there is a snapshot opportunity for the F-14 to get on the F-16. However, the f-16s energy retention is eye-watering! Of course, it's low speeds it is handicapped by the AOA limiter which means point ability is nil.

 

I suggest you go on YouTube and look up Okie . He is a F-14 pilot talks about dog fighting the F-14 against the F-16 in the a

 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

Hello,

 

That first paragraph I wouldn't guess.

Thank you, will see the vídeos.

HANGAR

JETS  FlamingCliffs 3 | MiG-21 bis | Mirage 2000C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | F/A-18C

HELIS :  Mi-8 MTV2

 

... only recently using the full benefits of Windows 10.

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How / what would the F-14A pilot do, if the F-16 (any version) does start its very best maximum Sustained Turn Rate 2 circle fight, and keep pressing it, trying to bear his nose on the Tomcat ?

 

 

As jcdata mentions before, you can always cut into his turn, i.e. you always have the radius on him and under some circumstances, you can match his rate as well. The issue is, to match his rate, you need to be slow and being slow with a Viper from a neutral merge may not be the best idea (again, depending on other factors, RoE, armaments). So how do you fight him (in general) the best?

 

Keeping it short:

 

An F-14A would be in trouble against a properly flown F-16 due to the A cat series simply lacking the power necessary to sustain tight maneuvers

 

If you allow me a small correction. The A can sustain her turns almost as well as the B, especially 10kft and bellow). The problem with the F-14A isn't that sustained turn rate, it is the recovery of energy once you go slow and have no altitude to trade (pm).

 

... but it will be able to pull a tighter initial radius turn which can allow it to either pull off the first shot after a neutral merge or escape an initial attack from behind.

 

However, because of this, if you can get your nose on the Viper AND keep it there (t.i. apply constant pressure), because of your better nose pointing ability and superior (lesser) bleed rates in this regime, you can essentially bleed him dry and come out with an energy advantage. So the key points is timing and geometry. Don't cash in your (energy) chips, unless you are pretty sure it will result in the above mentioned situation.

 

 

The situation is quite a bit different in the case of the GE powered F-14 B & D however

What the GE powered F-14's get is, they offset some of these disadvantages. Do note, the Viper and the F-15 will still recover energy at somewhat higher rates (especially high - trans subsonic), but the difference is now much reduced. Also worthy of notice, as the B and the D are heavier, you get a bit lower instantaneous turn rates in them then you would in the A and possibly even some increase in bleed rates.

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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What about roll rate? With wings folded back apparently the F14's roll rate is quite insane, how is it with wings extended as I assume they would be in a slow-ish speed BFM?

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Here is a quick benchmark for a clean F-14B and it was the standard air show demo for minimum radius turns at roughly 2000’ MSL and less than 50000 lbs gross weight: plug in burner at 280 kias and accelerate to 320 kias, build up the G and the F-14B can sustain 7 G at a steady 320 kias. The

 

-Nick

 

Holy s...! That is like 24 degrees per second sustained.

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As jcdata mentions before, you can always cut into his turn, i.e. you always have the radius on him and under some circumstances, you can match his rate as well. The issue is, to match his rate, you need to be slow and being slow with a Viper from a neutral merge may not be the best idea (again, depending on other factors, RoE, armaments). So how do you fight him (in general) the best?

 

...

 

 

Hello captain dalan,

 

Thank you for your insight.

Sorry, is this a rhetorical question, or do you want to know my experience ?

HANGAR

JETS  FlamingCliffs 3 | MiG-21 bis | Mirage 2000C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | F/A-18C

HELIS :  Mi-8 MTV2

 

... only recently using the full benefits of Windows 10.

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No need to do that. The Tomcat can take on anything in DCS from a BFM standpoint. It is not the easiest aircraft to fly in BFM, but it’s capabilities keep it competitive for those who get to know her.

 

Here is a quick benchmark for a clean F-14B and it was the standard air show demo for minimum radius turns at roughly 2000’ MSL and less than 50000 lbs gross weight: plug in burner at 280 kias and accelerate to 320 kias, build up the G and the F-14B can sustain 7 G at a steady 320 kias. The Heatblur module is very carefully benchmarked against the real EM charts and does this maneuver perfectly.

 

For reference, the Hornet clean with 4000 lbs of gas can only sustain about 5.8 G at the same altitude and speed. So if you are going to fight the Tomcat with a Hornet, make sure you stay above 350 kias.

 

-Nick

Yep, the Tomcat is a beast in that realm. Fortunately for adversaries, there're other areas to exploit.

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What about roll rate? With wings folded back apparently the F14's roll rate is quite insane, how is it with wings extended as I assume they would be in a slow-ish speed BFM?

 

It’s fine, and not a significant tactical limitation despite what you may have heard. Really must understand required control inputs vs AOA. It isn’t difficult to learn, the Tomcat provides beautiful feedback.

 

Coordinated controls in normal flight, lateral stick may be a disaster at high alpha, rudder is always your friend. And maybe even opposite stick...

 

You will have a blast learning to really fly.

Viewpoints are my own.

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It’s fine, and not a significant tactical limitation despite what you may have heard. Really must understand required control inputs vs AOA. It isn’t difficult to learn, the Tomcat provides beautiful feedback.

 

Coordinated controls in normal flight, lateral stick may be a disaster at high alpha, rudder is always your friend. And maybe even opposite stick...

 

You will have a blast learning to really fly.

 

Thank you for the reply. Good to know :thumbup:

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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IDK how to embed it

 

I'm going to give the F-14 the benefit of the doubt that Ralfi isn't the best at BFM, but that first guns round didn't look to me like the F-14 can out turn anything.


Edited by Heavy-D69420
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I'm going to give the F-14 the benefit of the doubt that Ralfi isn't the best at BFM, but that first guns round didn't look to me like the F-14 can out turn anything.

 

he wasn't fighting correctly.

Strike

vCVW-11

http://www.vcvw-11.com

 

i7-9700K OC 5GHz| MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON | 32GB DDR4 3200 | GTX 1070 | Samsung SSD | Samsung Odyssey+ VR | HOTAS Warthog

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