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The Ka-50 Black Shark thread


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MODERATOR NOTE AS OF 09/24/07 - Thread has been significantly edited for off-topic posts.

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I thought it would be nice to create a Ka-50 dedicated thread in which the ka-50 is discussed, including its systems and such. So that we will be in the mood for a chopper when 1.2 is released.

I know this will turn into a flame war in 3 pages, but let's have a constructive couple of pages before that happens.

 

On the Russian forum, a dev posted a pic of the Ka-50's laser warning system in-game. I'm wondering how it works (what it displays on those grey bars) and other stuff.

laser6ej.jpg

 

 

BTW, the person in question now has a choice of hanging, either in the "classic" way, or "by his nuts" :p

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not sure about the laser but found this nice little site alot of good info on there http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/ka50-01.htm

 

Always be just a little bit wary of aeronautics.ru . . . . . there's some good stuff on there, but there's also some very bad stuff on there . . . .

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THIS should get the party started: Here is what Jane's has to say about the specs and history of the Kamov Ka-50

 

 

Kamov Kompaniya (Kamov Company)



Kamov Ka-50 Chernaya Akula

English name: Black Shark

 

 

 

Type

 

Attack helicopter.

 

Programme

 

Project launched in December 1977 as V-80 (Vertolyet 80: Helicopter 80); first prototype (010) built by Kamov bureau and hovered at Lyubertsy 17 June 1982 and flew on 23 July, powered by TV3-117V engines; second prototype (011) flew 16 August 1983 with TV3-117VMA engines and mockup of Shkval tracking system, Merkury LLLTV, cannon and K-041 sighting system; both prototypes wore painted 'windows' to simulate fictitious rear cockpits. Initially reported in West in mid-1984, but first photograph did not appear (US Department of Defense's Soviet Military Power) until 1989.

 

First prototype lost in fatal accident on 3 April 1985; replaced by third prototype (012) with Mercury LLTV system for state comparative test programme against Mil Mi-28, which completed in August 1986. Two preproduction V-80Sh-1 s (014 and 015) were first to be built at Arsenyev and introduced UV-26 chaff/flare dispensers; second had K-37-800 ejection system and mockup of LLLTV in articulated turret. Ordered into production in December 1987. Further three for continued development work comprised 018 (first flown at Arsenyev 22 May 1991), 020 'Werewolf' and 021 'Black Shark'. (Export marketing name was originally Werewolf, but changed to Black Shark by 1996.) State tests of Ka-50 began in mid-1991 and type was commissioned into Russian Army Aviation in August 1993 for trials at 4th Army Aviation Training Centre, Torzhok. In August 1994, the Ka-50 was included in the Russian Army inventory by Presidential decree, judged winner of the fly-off against Mi-28. The Mi-28 was nominally terminated on 5 October 1994 but the competition continued.

 

Further army evaluation followed when first two of four production Ka-50s were funded in 1994 and officially accepted on 28 August 1995; third and fourth received in 1996; these four numbered 20 to 23 (prompting pre-series 021 to be renumbered 024 to avoid confusion). Arsenyev production was to have increased to one per month during 1997, but this did not occur. The original Ka-50 (and rival Mi-28A) were overtaken by the issue of a revised requirement which emphasised night capability- favouring the two-seat Mi-28. The initial order for 15 Ka-50s was reportedly cancelled in September 1998, with procurement postponed until 2003. Three deployed to Mozdok during 1999 for use in Chechnya, but not used operationally. Two returned to theatre in December 2000; first firing of weapons against guerrilla forces was on 6 January 2001 (operating in conjunction with Mil Mi-24s); helicopters returned to Torzhok in March 2001. Unspecified modifications, found necessary as a consequence of operational deployment, had been incorporated by November 2002, according to a Kamov announcement.

 

Klimov VK-3000 turboshaft offered as alternative power plant.

 

By late 2004, it was being presumed that no further production of Ka-50s would take place, the Russian Air Forces having, instead, chosen Mil Mi-28 as main attack helicopter, backed by smaller number of Kamov Ka-52s.

 

Current Versions

 

Ka-50 ('Hokum')

 

As described.

 

Ka-50N (Nochnoy: Nocturnal)

 

Also reported as Ka-50Sh. Night-capable attack version; essentially a single-seat Ka-52. Programme began 1993; originally based on TpSPO-V and Merkury LLLTV systems, which tested on Ka-50 development aircraft. Ka-50N first reported April 1997 as conversion of prototype 018 with Thomson-CSF Victor FLIR turret above the nose and Arbalet (crossbow) mast-mounted radar, plus second TV screen in cockpit; FLIR integrated with Uralskyi Optiko-Mekhanicheskyi Zavod (UOMZ) Shamshit-50 (Laurel-50) electro-optic sighting system, incorporating French IR set. First flight variously reported as 4 March or 5 May 1997; programmed improvements included replacement of PA-4-3 paper moving map with digital equivalent; by August 1997, FLIR turret was repositioned below nose and Arbalet was removed; by mid-1998, had IT-23 CRT display replaced by TV-109, and HUD removed and replaced by Marconi helmet display. Proposed new cockpit shown in September 1998, having two Russkaya Avionika 203 × 152 mm (8 × 6 in) LCDs and central CRT for sensor imagery. Indigenous avionics intended for any local production orders; French systems as interim solution and standard for export. Republic of Korea Army evaluated both the Ka-50N and the baseline Ka-50. In 1999, preproduction aircraft 014 was exhibited with a UOMZ GOES sensor turret in place of Shkval.

 

Ka-50-2

 

Designation applies to three quite different aircraft. Basic Ka-50-2 is a variant of the Ka-50 single-seater, though the designation is also applied to two twin-seat aircraft; first of these was a version of the Ka-52 Alligator and, as such, was described in 2001-02 and earlier Jane's. All Ka-50-2s differ from the baseline Ka-52 in retaining attack and anti-tank role using 12 laser beam-riding AT-8 Vikhr ATGMs or 16 Rafael NT-D ATGMs; avionics to be supplied by Israel Aircraft Industries, Lahav Division; 024 used as demonstrator. The basic Ka-50-2 was proposed to China, Finland, India, South Korea, Malaysia, Myanmar, Poland, South Africa, Syria and Turkey.

 

Second variant of Ka-50-2 is another two-seater, intended to have conventional stepped tandem cockpits; is offered to armed forces which do not accept the single-seat or side-by-side two-seat layouts. A further subvariant of the tandem-seat Ka-50-2, the Erdogan (Turkish for Born Fighter), was proposed to Turkey jointly by Kamov and Israel Aircraft Industries. This would have been fitted with longer-span wings and feature a NATO-compatible Giat 621 turret containing a single 20 mm cannon which would fold down below the belly of the helicopter in flight, for a 360º arc of fire; it would fold to starboard for landing, and could be fired directly forward, even when folded. TV3-117VMA-02 engines. Ten Turkish pilots flew Alligator'061' at Antalya, Turkey, in early 1999 as part of evaluation process; requirement was for 145. Named as second choice when Bell AH-1Z selected, and negotiations briefly reopened in mid-2002, following impasse in agreement with USA.

 

Ka-52

 

Basic two-seat version of Ka-50 with side-by-side seating; Only one prototype of this two-seat combat helicopter has been built. Attempts to secure a customer continued in 2001-02 with the offer of a Ka-52K variant to South Korea. A second stage of State Tests was due to have begun in early 2003, up to which time, it was confirmed, the Arbalet radar had not been installed (except for display purposes). Radar trials were said to have begun by November 2003 but a January 2005 report stated that these shortly to begin, following 17 test flights in first stage of radar trials. Irregular financing expected to cause trials to be extended over an indefinite period, but in a surprise announcement of December 2003, C-in-C of Russian Air Forces revealed plans for delivery of 12 Ka-52s (and some Mil Mi-28s) to begin in early 2004. One year later, the target had been changed to three delivered in 2005 and two in 2006, all from 'Progress' plant at Arsenyev. During 2004, Yemen was mentioned as a possible customer for 12 Ka-52s.

 

Project revealed at 1995 Paris Air Show; mockup (converted from Ka-50 static test airframe) displayed at Moscow Air Show, August 1995. Prototype (061 c/n 00601, believed converted from centre and rear fuselage of Ka-50 021), with Sextant Avionique avionics, shown to press on 19 November 1996; displayed at Bangalore Air Show, India, from 3 December; first flight 25 June 1997, fitted with flight test nose, lacking sensors; first `official' flight 1 July. Ka-52 has designation V-80Sh-1. Fitted with mast-mounted radar by 2005.

 

Customers

 

Four for Russian Army service trials, plus eight flying prototype and pre-series helicopters; all delivered. Further 10 ordered in 1997 budget and six in 1998, of which first three were due for delivery before end of 1998; initial helicopter eventually completed in June 1999, two more being due by mid-2000. By early 2004, it was still unclear if helicopters from the first batch of 10 had been delivered to Army Aviation. Two operational Ka-50s shown at Moscow Salon in August 2001 may have been repainted trials aircraft. One army helicopter lost in accident, 17 June 1998; attributed to rotor clash.

 

Costs

 

Unit price of Ka-50N quoted as between USD12 million and USD15 million in mid-1999.

Design Features

 

World's first single-seat close support helicopter. Coaxial, contrarotating and widely separated semi-rigid three-blade rotors, with swept blade tip, attached to hub by steel plates; small fuselage cross-section, with nose sensors; flat-screen cockpit, heavily armour protected by combined steel/aluminium armour and spaced aluminium plates, with rearview mirror above windscreen; small sweptback tailfin, with inset rudder and large tab; high-set tailplane on rear fuselage, with endplate auxiliary fins; retractable landing gear; mid-set unswept wings, carrying ECM pods at tips; four underwing weapon pylons; engines above wingroots; high agility for fast, low-flying, close-range attack role; partially dismantled can be air-ferried in Il-76 freighter. Much of fuselage skin formed by large hinged door panels, providing access to interior equipment from ground level.

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Flying Controls

 

Kamov coaxial design; Dual hydraulically powered flight control systems, without manual reversion; spring stick trim; yaw control by differential collective pitch applied through rudder pedals; mix in collective system maintains constant total rotor thrust during turns, to reduce pilot workload when landing on pitching deck, and to simplify transition to hover and landing; twin rudders intended mainly to improve control in autorotation, but also effective in co-ordinating turns; flight can be maintained on one engine at maximum T-O weight.

 

Structure

 

Fuselage built around steel torsion box beam, of 1.0 m (3 ft 3¼ in) square section. Wing centre-section passes through beam. Cockpit mounted at front of beam, gearbox above and engines to sides. Carbon-based composites materials constitute 35 per cent by weight of structure, including rotors. Approximately 350 kg (770 lb) of armour protects pilot, engines, fuel system and ammunition bay; canopy and windscreen panels are 55 mm (2¼ in) thick bulletproof glass.

 

Landing Gear

 

Hydraulically retractable tricycle type; twin-wheel steerable nose unit and single mainwheels all semi-exposed when up; all wheels retract rearward; low-pressure tyres.

 

Power Plant

 

Two 1,633 kW (2,190 shp) Klimov TV3-117VMA turboshafts with VR-80 main reduction gearbox and two PVR-800 intermediate gearboxes, with air intake dust filters and exhaust heat suppressors. Later use of 1,838 kW (2,465 shp) TV3-117VMA-SB3 turboshafts intended. Two primary fuel tanks, filled with reticulated foam, inside fuselage box beam. Total internal capacity approximately 1,800 litres (485 US gallons; 404 Imp gallons). Front tank feeds port engine; rear feeds starboard and APU. Each tank protected by layers of natural rubber. Provision for four 500 litre (132 US gallon; 110 Imp gallon) underwing auxiliary fuel tanks. Transmission remains operable for 30 minutes after oil system failure.

 

Accommodation

 

Double-wall steel armoured cockpit, able to protect pilot from hits by 20 and 23 mm gunfire over ranges as close as 100 m (330 ft). Interior black-painted for use with NVGs. Specially designed Zvezda K-37-800 ejection system, ostensibly for safe ejection at any altitude (actually from 100 m; 330 ft); following explosive separation of rotor blades and opening of cockpit roof, pilot is extracted from cockpit by large rocket; alternatively, he can jettison doors and stores before rolling out of cockpit sideways. Associated equipment includes automatic radio beacon, activated during ejection, inflatable liferaft and NAZ-7M survival kit.

 

Systems

 

All systems configured for operational deployment away from base for up to 12 days without need for maintenance ground equipment; refuelling, avionics and weapon servicing performed from ground level. AI-9V APU for engine starting, and ground supply of hydraulic and electrical power, in top of centre-fuselage. Anti-icing system for engine air intakes, rotors, AoA and yaw sensors; de-icing of windscreen and canopy by liquid spray.

PrPNK Rubikon (L-041) piloting, navigation and sighting system based on five computers: four Orbita BLVM-20-751s for combat and navigation displays and target designation, plus one BCVM-80-30201 for WCS. Incorporates PNK-800 Radian navigation system, with C-061K pitch and heading data, IK-VSP-VI-2 speed and altitude and PA-4-3 automatic position plotting subsystems. Series 3 Tester U3 flight data recorder. Ekran BITE and warning system. KKO-VK-LP oxygen system with 2 litre (0.07 cu ft) supply for 90 minutes. Electrical supply from two 400 kW generators at 115 V 400 Hz three-phase AC; 500 W converter; rectifiers for 27 V DC supply.

 

Avionics

 

Integrated by NPO Elektro Avtomatika.

 

Comms

 

Two R800L1 and one R-868 UHF transceivers, SPU-9 intercom, P-503B headset recorder, Almaz-UP-48 voice warning system and HF com/nav; IFF ('Slap Shot').

 

Flight

 

INS; autopilot; Doppler box under tailboom; ARK-22 radio compass; A-036A radio altimeter.

 

Instrumentation

 

Conventional instruments; ILS-31 HUD; moving map display (Kronshtadt Abris on some aircraft); small IT-23MV CRT beneath HUD, with rubber hood, to display only FLIR and monochrome LLLTV imagery. Pilot has Obzor-800 helmet sight effective within ±60º azimuth and from -20 to +45º elevation; when pilot has target centred on HUD, he pushes button to lock sighting and four-channel digital autopilot into one unit. Displays compatible with OVN-1 Skosok NVGs.

 

Mission

 

To reduce pilot workload and introduce a degree of low observability, target location and designation are assigned to other aircraft; equipment behind windows in nose includes I-25IV Shkval-V daylight electro-optical search and auto-tracking system, laser marked target seeker and range-finder; FOV ±35º in azimuth +15 to -80º in elevation. FLIR turret to be added in nose for use with NVGs.

 

Self-defence

 

L150 Pastel RWR in tailcone, at rear of each wingtip EW pod and under nose; total of 512 chaff/flare cartridges (in four UV-26 dispensers) in each wingtip pod. L-140 Otklik laser detection system; L-136 Mak IR warning.

 

Armament

 

Four BD3-UV pylons on wings. Up to 80 S-8 80 mm air-to-surface rockets in four underwing B8V20A packs or 20 S-13 122 mm rockets in four B-13L pods; or up to 12 9A4172 Vikhr-M (AT-12) tube-launched laser-guided ASMs with range of 8 to 10 km (5 to 6.2 miles) capable of penetrating 900 mm of reactive armour; or mix of both; Vikhr launched from trainable UPP-800 mounts, which can be depressed to -12º; single-barrel 30 mm 2A42 gun on starboard side of fuselage, with up to 470 armour-piercing or high-explosive fragmentation rounds, can be depressed from +3º 30' to -37º in elevation and traversed from -2º 30' to +9º in azimuth hydraulically and is kept on target in azimuth by tracker which turns helicopter on its axis; two ammunition boxes in centre-fuselage. Front box contains 240 AP rounds, rear box 230 HE rounds. Selectable rapid (550 to 600 rds/min) or slow (350 rds/min) fire, with bursts of 10 or 20 rounds. Provision for alternative weapons, including UPK-23-250 23 mm gun pods, Igla or R-73 (AA-11'Archer') AAMs, Kh-25MP (AS-12 'Kegler') ARMs, FAB-500 bombs or dispenser weapons.

 

Dimensions, External

 

Rotor diameter (each) 14.50 m (47 ft 7 in)

Length overall, rotors turning 16.00 m (52 ft 6 in)

Fuselage length, excl noseprobe 14.20 m (46 ft 7 in)

Wing span 7.34 m (24 ft 1 in)

Height overall 4.93 m (16 ft 2 in)

Tailplane span 3.16 m (10 ft 4½ in)

Wheel track: main 2.67 m (8 ft 9 in)

nose 0.34 m (1 ft 1½ in)

Wheelbase 4.19 m (13 ft 9 in)

 

Areas

 

Rotor disc (each) 165.13 m2 (1,777.4 sq ft)

 

Weights and Loadings

 

Weight empty 7,800 kg (17,196 lb)

Max external stores 3,000 kg (6,610 lb)

 

Normal T-O weight: Ka-50

9,800 kg (21,605 lb)

Erdogan 9,800 kg (21,605 lb)

Max T-O weight: Ka-50

10,800 kg (23,810 lb)

Erdogan 11,300 kg (24,912 lb)

 

Performance

 

Max speed:

in shallow dive 210 kt (390 km/h; 242 mph)

in level flight 162 kt (300 km/h; 186 mph)

in sideways flight 43 kt (80 km/h; 49 mph)

in backward flight 48 kt (90 km/h; 55 mph)

Cruising speed 146 kt (270 km/h; 168 mph)

Vertical rate of climb at 2,500 m (8,200 ft) 600 m (1,970 ft)/min

Service ceiling 5,500 m (18,040 ft)

Hovering ceiling OGE 4,000 m (13,120 ft)

Range: combat 243 n miles (450 km; 279 miles)

with max internal fuel 280 n miles (520 km; 323 miles)

Ka-50 with 4 auxiliary tanks: 594 n miles (1,100 km; 683 miles)

Erdogan 626 n miles (1,160 km; 720 miles)

Endurance: standard fuel, 10 min reserves 1 h 40 min

with 2 auxiliary tanks 2 h 50 min

g limit +3.5

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I don't think there's any AAMs or Kh-25's ... they're a bit off on some flare numbers and the RWR, but in general the description look right.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Yeah, on the Russian forum the devs said the ka-50 didn't have any chaff loaded, and had 120 (or was it 128 ) flares, the release of which could be programmed.

 

Is the Otklik system linked to the countermeasure dispensing system? Or is the pilot required for fire flares manually only?

 

And will the ka-50 have 2xIgla missiles on the tips of the pylon (Not on the standard weapon hardpoints, but below the flare dispensers)?

Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:

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For the laser warning receiver...

 

-Red lights are threat bearing indicators.

 

-Inner sqaure lights are the upper/lower hemisphere indicators, much like the SPO-15.

 

-Red button on lower right will clear the display.

 

- Upper of the two lower square lights is the indication the threat laser is in range finding mode and the lower light indicates the threat laser is in guidance mode.

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Inside the cockpit there's oldschool digital counter build of some red LEDs. What is that?

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:: Shaman aka [100☭] Shamansky

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One thing to point out- the TV3-117VMA has 2200 ehp take-off power without anti-dust device. When it is installed the max power decreases with 100 hp to 2100. This is valid for all versions of the TV3-117. The VK-2500 is brand new and is still testing and I don't beleive it has been installed on a serial machine. It features more power, fuel efficiency, more service life, FADEC and so on. Read more on the manufacturer's web site here: http://klimov.ru/en/products/military/turboshaft_engine/vk-2500/

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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If the engine dust protectors of the Ka-50 are similar in design to those on the Mi-8/-17 family, that is they use engine bleed air to create the necessary vortices, they should also be pilot controlled via two switches. Looking at images online of the Ka-50, the engine inlets do appear similar. Or am I just off on the wrong track?

 

But then again, I can't see ED modeling dust erosion on the engine compressors, so I don't think we'll even need to worry about switching on our Engine Dust Protectors within 100ft of landing. :P

 

-Chris

 

P.S. That Klimov site you found was pretty neat too

Alienware P4 3.0 GHz 800 MHz FSB | WinXP Pro SP2 | 2 GB PC3200 | ATI X850 256 MB with XT PE BIOS | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 3 Pro with Vector Expansion | Voice Buddy v3.0

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If the engine dust protectors of the Ka-50 are similar in design to those on the Mi-8/-17 family, that is they use engine bleed air to create the necessary vortices, they should also be pilot controlled via two switches. Looking at images online of the Ka-50, the engine inlets do appear similar. Or am I just off on the wrong track?

 

The dust-protecting device("ПЗУ"- "пыле-защитное устройство" in russian) is part of the engine, not the helicopter, so I believe they are all the same no matter the aircraft. However, I don't know whether they will model any icing and anti-ice systems.

 

But then again, I can't see ED modeling dust erosion on the engine compressors, so I don't think we'll even need to worry about switching on our Engine Dust Protectors within 100ft of landing. :P

 

The dust protector has also bleed air anti-ice system which is manualy operated. When in use this causes slightly loss of power. About the 100hp less for engines with dust protector- there isn't a flyable helo without it to compare so it's not an issue.

 

P.S. That Klimov site you found was pretty neat too

 

Has also info about the RD-33 and the TVC nozzle for it.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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Does the Black Shark have a cannon??

 

-Chris

 

And from above post:

 

Single-barrel 30 mm 2A42 gun on starboard side of fuselage, with up to 470 armour-piercing or high-explosive fragmentation rounds, can be depressed from +3º 30' to -37º in elevation and traversed from -2º 30' to +9º in azimuth hydraulically and is kept on target in azimuth by tracker which turns helicopter on its axis; two ammunition boxes in centre-fuselage. Front box contains 240 AP rounds, rear box 230 HE rounds. Selectable rapid (550 to 600 rds/min) or slow (350 rds/min) fire, with bursts of 10 or 20 rounds.

Alienware P4 3.0 GHz 800 MHz FSB | WinXP Pro SP2 | 2 GB PC3200 | ATI X850 256 MB with XT PE BIOS | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 3 Pro with Vector Expansion | Voice Buddy v3.0

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Don't mess with that gun, the same thing is installed in the BMP, and judging from my experiences from OPF, it's not the wee Gsh-301 from the Mig-29. This baby is one to respect, and certainly not to be on the business end of it, not even in a tank.

 

Is it true that the only fire rates are: fully automatic, 20 round burst and 10 round burst ?

So we can't fire 3 round bursts with it?

 

Hmm, now that I'm thinking about it, both Team Alligator and EECH had a 10 burst minimum. I remeber squeezing the trigger for a millisecond, and the thing kept spitting out bullets.

 

What will we use HE rounds for?

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Suppose HE rounds will be for light targets. Trucks, infantry, aircraft and helos.

 

Yes that's right - actually HE rounds are the more "all-round" ones for "soft targets", while AP is specifically for lightly armoured ones such as APCs, IFVs and mobile airdefence systems.

 

I wouldn't be too confident about trying my luck with the cannon against MBTs though - leave those for the Vikhr :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

JJ

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Do you mean these ones in the bottom right ?

No, it's above pilot's head on the right.

51PVO Founding member (DEC2007-)

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:: Shaman aka [100☭] Shamansky

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That would be the IRCM control pannel ... you can use it to program the flare bursts.

 

The one pointed out by Fragal is the top part of the navigation pannel ... :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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