GGTharos Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Hi FBM, Sounds like a reasonable question with a reasonable (but in light of this discussion I suppose perhaps insufficient) answer ... I think the problem is that missile mechanization and tactics are not available :( [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 FYI, found this post... : http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=4302 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbm Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Hi FBM, Sounds like a reasonable question with a reasonable (but in light of this discussion I suppose perhaps insufficient) answer ... I think the problem is that missile mechanization and tactics are not available :( Top secret. :D And disscussed manual is rather archaic, isnt it? And full of gaps as I heard. But if you have any information about all these you are welcome! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Unfortunately I had to piece all my information together from a large number of sources, and in a lot of cases, many assumptions were needed also! :( [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ.eightFive Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Do we have a definitive number for the R-27ET gimbal limits? I don't have access to all the fancy reference material you gentlemen do but online sources seem to point to 55 degrees. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 No, it isn't. The ET uses -either- the 36T seeker (20 deg gimbals, same seeker used on R-60M) -or- the MK-80(M?) seeker (Used on the R-73, so 45 deg, potentially up to 60-70 deg gimbals) I have not been able to find a definitive answer as to which of the two is used, but I know for certain that it is one of those two seekers. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilBivol-1 Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Answer: Like as there are data that is capable, for this reason did. Allow me to rephrase: "Apparently there is data for this capability, therefore it was implemented." Got to keep digging... :) - EB [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer. The Parable of Jane's A-10 Forum Rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbm Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Unfortunately I had to piece all my information together from a large number of sources, and in a lot of cases, many assumptions were needed also! :( Thank you for the link. I havent seen it before. Very interesting discussion. By the way they say that all sources never told all truth to put it midly. And often made contradictory representations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 No problem, and yes, you are correct. I think that graph is however the real WEZ for the R-27R (or, R-27R1, there should be no aerodynamic difference ... and the graph certainly has the proper shape. Of course this is only kinematic diagram and has nothing to do with sensors, and may not apply directly to R-27T, and certaintly not to ER/ET, but you -can- draw conclusions from it) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 No, it isn't. The ET uses -either- the 36T seeker (20 deg gimbals, same seeker used on R-60M) -or- the MK-80(M?) seeker (Used on the R-73, so 45 deg, potentially up to 60-70 deg gimbals) I have not been able to find a definitive answer as to which of the two is used, but I know for certain that it is one of those two seekers. I found a web site exporting the seeker head, but it doesn't state it's name :icon_lol: Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 D'oh :D Does it list gimbal limits or anything like that? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Noo.. it just the arsenal that they are selling.. and it's some geophysics institute :D Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shepski Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Toronto...I actually had no idea Canadians were so well represented in LOMAC :) Cool... Edmonton here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shepski Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Do we have a definitive number for the R-27ET gimbal limits? I don't have access to all the fancy reference material you gentlemen do but online sources seem to point to 55 degrees. Is this correct? From my book: "Su-27 Flanker Story" by Andrei Fomin... Target designation angle +55 to -55 degrees for the R-27T and R-27ET. Great discussion guys!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S77th-GOYA Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Again, sorry if this has been covered. From the track on the first page, it appears we're talking about the firing of a missile that, although there is a radar lock telling it where to look for the target, doesn't have a lock with its own seeker. I would imagine the seeker is pointed directly at the target when fired, but what happens after launch? Does the seeker remain stationary unless it acquires a lock? To me it seems that seeker field of view is much more important than gimbal limits. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the launching a/c doesn't send info to the missile to tell it where to look after launch, right? It seems the only way this should work is if the target and missile are coming exactly head on to each other until a lock is acheived or the target happens to fly into the field of view. I'm assuming a small field of view, like the Sidewinder, so if it's bigger there would be more of a chance of target acquisition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Remember the wild sidewinder in the archer video? This is apparently typical of heatseekers that 'lose lock early'. And yes, IRH FoVs are small ... 3 deg's thebiggest I've heard of. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ.eightFive Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Out of curiosity, how long can the seeker head maintain its cooling after launch. Is it reasonable to expect full seeker performance after travelling a great distance (which is certainly the case in these "sniper" shots). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat1974 Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Hehe....Octavian is Romanian :) . Too bad he hasnt been around the forum for a long time......would have been interesting to hear his opinion in this discussion. Cheers, - JJ. JJ .. he is busy :) and he is in US now . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Out of curiosity, how long can the seeker head maintain its cooling after launch. Is it reasonable to expect full seeker performance after travelling a great distance (which is certainly the case in these "sniper" shots). Depends on the type of cooling ... electro-thermal might, so long as your battery holds out (in the case of the ET, this should easily be the case) ... in the case of a gas or liquid nitrogen coolant however, you're much more limited. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted April 6, 2006 Author Share Posted April 6, 2006 Again, sorry if this has been covered. From the track on the first page, it appears we're talking about the firing of a missile that, although there is a radar lock telling it where to look for the target, doesn't have a lock with its own seeker. I would imagine the seeker is pointed directly at the target when fired, but what happens after launch? Does the seeker remain stationary unless it acquires a lock? To me it seems that seeker field of view is much more important than gimbal limits. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the launching a/c doesn't send info to the missile to tell it where to look after launch, right? It seems the only way this should work is if the target and missile are coming exactly head on to each other until a lock is acheived or the target happens to fly into the field of view. I'm assuming a small field of view, like the Sidewinder, so if it's bigger there would be more of a chance of target acquisition. I dont think the seekers view cone is just 3 degrees. Last night on 169 server I fired an ET wich was dodged by manuever, to my utter surprise I still scored an extra kill. I went to the debriefing and read that it spent nearly 20 seconds flying and had aparently "crashed" into another bandit flying low after missing the first target. Coupled this to the second track I made where ET missiles change targets I think its too much coincindence that in such short time span all these targets could have crossed a view cone so narrow as this. I believe strongly that it has a wider view as too wide is the gimball limits, further more I also think it has a very optimistic sensitivity to heat at BVR distances. BTW this reminds me off another infamoust thread where it was mentioned that the reason why the russian planes had only 2 ET pylons because they have nitrogen bottles and cooling sytem mounted on them wich werent present on the other pylons. what does this mean for the seakers cooling once airborne? [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflash Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 I still have a problem. Suppose indeed, as it seems, that IRL the R-27ET is: - a missile with inertial guidance in first phase of flight - limited, not so sensitive IR seeker in the end-run - having no data-link - being not a beam-rider of course - requiring seeker lock BEFORE launch ... then I completely do not understand why they have both a -T and an -ET version? It must be quite evident that the ET, with its long range, is completely useless, since you cannot launch beyond the seeker limit? I would say in those circumstances T = ET, functionally spoken. Or did I miss something again :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaad Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 It must be quite evident that the ET, with its long range, is completely useless, since you cannot launch beyond the seeker limit? Very good Question....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilBivol-1 Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 To better chase targets, which, if they are running away from you in afterburner and the weather's in compliance, can be locked on from quite afar, beyond the kinematic range, in fact. Also, the radar has more difficulty maintaining a lock on receding targets due to doppler problems (you must maintain a closure rate of no less than +/-150km/h), making RH shots less reliable. - EB [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer. The Parable of Jane's A-10 Forum Rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 Whel it would be what was sayed earlier about it being a weapon for chase.. The target is close in therms of distance, but out of reach for P-73 kinematicaly. Edit: damn... :D Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra360 Posted April 6, 2006 Share Posted April 6, 2006 It would seem only to be able to use it's range advantage when the target is running away from you. Same lockon as the T range but the missile can run further and have more energy to turn if the target starts evasive action. A possibility? Ah, you said it before me, Evil :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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