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why even fly a mig-21 if you just want it to be the same as a su-27?

 

this is a sort of folly and self-deception that i don't understand how anyone can live with, you want to be seen winning as the underdog without actually being the underdog?

 

First of all, no one here is calling for the MiG-21 to be the same as the Su-27. People are calling for real world avionics upgrades that have been performed on real MiG-21s.

 

Apart from that, the Su-27 is an FC3 module. DCS lacks a high fidelity Russian fighter.


Edited by Boris

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It would just mean that everything would turn into a Soviet IR-MRM, without the easy possibilities of evasion if spotted.

 

I don't have a problem with the RWR compared to something else... The 2 second time you have to hold down pickle in order for a missile to launch. Especially if you have to keep your target in a very narrow bore-sight. Otherwise, the plane's alright against modern thingies.

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I actually quite like the limitations of the MiG-21bis, it gives you a completely different gameplay than the FC3 fighters.

 

I understand the MP crowd wants the most competitive fighter available, but from a Single-Player point of view the larger the difference between modules, the better.

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I don't have a problem with the RWR compared to something else... The 2 second time you have to hold down pickle in order for a missile to launch. Especially if you have to keep your target in a very narrow bore-sight. Otherwise, the plane's alright against modern thingies.

but this too is just part of the experience. launching early aim-7s was a 6-second ordeal -- and you can't talk about understanding and appreciating the realities of vietnam air combat if you didn't have these issues.

 

you can't just whitewash an experience to suit your own desires, that's not what simulation is about -- and that's what im trying to say about the spo-10. dealing with the lack of information is an inherent part of flying the mig-21bis in a modern arena, if you take that away the exercise fundamentally changes.


Edited by probad
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why even fly a mig-21 if you just want it to be the same as a su-27?

 

this is a sort of folly and self-deception that i don't understand how anyone can live with, you want to be seen winning as the underdog without actually being the underdog?

 

Some of us like to see how far an air-frame can be taken. A Mig21 with modern avionics and other upgrades like the Lancer for example would be a lot of fun to fly and fight in. It could also test some fictional and possible "what-if" scenarios.

 

This is not fantasy, these upgrades exist.

 

In any case, the TLDR answer to your question is: because it would be fun.

 

Oh and another thing that just occured to me. With the modules being developed at the moment, there are no 4th SOVIET generation fighters in the pipeline. For dissimilar multiplayer servers this basically means that most of the RED side are stuck playing the same FC3 level fighters over and over again. An upgrade to the Mig21 would be a welcome addition in that kind of environment.


Edited by OnlyforDCS

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In short that's the problem, lack of a real sim of 4gen soviet fighter, as far as i know the most modern project is cubanace's SU-22, which is not a fighter but an attack aircraft, i had some hopes on the JF-17, but we don't have any news from long time ago. Besides that seem that there's absolutely nothing from easter block prior the 70's which is kinda dissaponting.

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Oh and another thing that just occured to me. With the modules being developed at the moment, there are no 4th SOVIET generation fighters in the pipeline. For dissimilar multiplayer servers this basically means that most of the RED side are stuck playing the same FC3 level fighters over and over again. An upgrade to the Mig21 would be a welcome addition in that kind of environment.

 

Exactly, on Blueflag you can pretty much see the same planes on both sides..

 

And Im not asking for a plane better or similar to the Su27, all I want is a RWR which gives me a better SA.. thats all

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Exactly, on Blueflag you can pretty much see the same planes on both sides..

 

And Im not asking for a plane better or similar to the Su27, all I want is a RWR which gives me a better SA.. thats all

 

Personally i like the BIS as it is now, but i'm all about the modernized ones a fishbed with modern avionics and MRM capability can be awesone...still a real 4gen would be better.

 

A modernized fishbed would need anyway an entire module fron scratch

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you can get better sa and still operate the mig-21 as-is. for example, you can take a page from the iraqi playbook and borrow another aircraft's rwr. i hope you're not going to try to tell me you don't want to coordinate with other people?

 

you all boast about your commitment to realism but the moment you are confronted with realistic problems you shrink away and ask for the easy way out.

 

Personally i like the BIS as it is now, but i'm all about the modernized ones a fishbed with modern avionics and MRM capability can be awesone...still a real 4gen would be better.

that's a whole different topic altogether. i don't care what module is in the game, people need to be okay with working with the aircraft as they are.


Edited by probad

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Such an upgrade to the Magnutude Mig21 would definitely constitute a new module. With the lack of any soviet fighter jets on the horizon I would gladly pay for such a module.

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It will still be the mig 21 no matter what. They will for certain sell it as a separate module but it's still gonna be the unmanageable mig. Having avionics upgrades would give advantages but in a dogfight the mig will still have to scoot, unless there's a better engine... But anyway, it would make ground attack even more efficient and it's original job, intercepting a lot more fun because we don't need the GCI, which isn't really good at the moment (sorry ed)

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Though I would prefer something new instead of an upgraded MiG-21. A MiG-23, Su-15, MiG-25, MiG-29 (super early) would be much more desirable. Currently the best chances are for the MiG-23 and Su-15. With the MiG-23 by RAZBAM "interfering with the current schedule" we are not going to see it's development started any time soon, that leaves the Su-15.

 

The Su-15 is a pure interceptor, having very little in the ways of BFM capabilities. But it would provide an interesting experience, specializing in hit and run tactics with fire and forget missiles. I wouldn't think the radar variants of the K-8 would be used that much, simply for the fact that you couldn't fire them and run. But the Soviet tactic of having both types of missiles fired at the same time would be the most reliable.

 

One could hope of the MiG-25, which would follow the pattern of the Su-15 with poor BFM. But this time we would get a package of pretty long range missiles and speed to play with. Theoretically the missiles could reach a target flying at 80km distance, this being from the speed of Mach 3 at high altitude under ideal circumstances. A more realistic R-max would be 50-40km, which is still pretty good BVR. Combine this with the ability to almost outrun most missiles, you have something theoretically quite capable.

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Though I would prefer something new instead of an upgraded MiG-21. A MiG-23, Su-15, MiG-25, MiG-29 (super early) would be much more desirable. Currently the best chances are for the MiG-23 and Su-15. With the MiG-23 by RAZBAM "interfering with the current schedule" we are not going to see it's development started any time soon, that leaves the Su-15.

 

The Su-15 is a pure interceptor, having very little in the ways of BFM capabilities. But it would provide an interesting experience, specializing in hit and run tactics with fire and forget missiles. I wouldn't think the radar variants of the K-8 would be used that much, simply for the fact that you couldn't fire them and run. But the Soviet tactic of having both types of missiles fired at the same time would be the most reliable.

 

One could hope of the MiG-25, which would follow the pattern of the Su-15 with poor BFM. But this time we would get a package of pretty long range missiles and speed to play with. Theoretically the missiles could reach a target flying at 80km distance, this being from the speed of Mach 3 at high altitude under ideal circumstances. A more realistic R-max would be 50-40km, which is still pretty good BVR. Combine this with the ability to almost outrun most missiles, you have something theoretically quite capable.

 

there is no super early mig29 per say.

 

 

Just the initial cold war era "vanilla" Mig29, and then the Mig29A ( slightly downgraded for Warpact export)

 

 

 

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I meant the vanilla or MiG-29A. If it were possible to get the MiG-29, we would most likely see the vanilla one. Because the MiG-29A is already unavailable, since it is included in FC3.

 

Though better not get our hopes up, we are never going to see one.

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I meant the vanilla or MiG-29A. If it were possible to get the MiG-29, we would most likely see the vanilla one. Because the MiG-29A is already unavailable, since it is included in FC3.

 

Though better not get our hopes up, we are never going to see one.

 

just because its in FC3 doesnt mean its unavailable or wouldnt be done in a full fidelity version. ED has plans for eg to do a Full fidelity F15C as well somewhere down the line.

 

 

Ed has never said no to Soviet era 4th gen ( The issue was priamrily with modernized service AC like the Su27SM), so unless they state otherwise, i would not discount the Mig29 or perhaps even a Su27S.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1839764&postcount=223

 

 

So really there is no evidence or official statement from the ED or other 3rd party that we would "never going to see one".

 

 

 

ED simply is busy with quite a many things taking priority before they get around To making another module. ( Finishing Hornet, then fleshing out Hornet from Early access to Final release, DCS 2.5 aka the Merge , Straight of Hormuz etc)

 

Especially since Western aircraft are more popular due to playerbase perhaps to the disappointment of Redforce fans we may get another western aircraft yet again ( Lots of people want a F16 from modern stuff) before we get a Russian module.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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Right, ED is working in 2.5, hornet and something else. But honestly, if you want F-16 plus gazillion of blocks and regional variants just go BMS.... A lot of people are also here to fly something different, not the F- notagainthatnumber. Or old jets rarely covered like F-5 (awesome). Honestly hoping they do something eastern, or european at least!


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Nah, staph! You are raising my hopes too much!

 

But I really wouldn't get why make an F-16? There are so many other options that don't have a really close full-fidelity counterpart, on the same side (going to be released soon in this case). You could make an AH-64, that doesn't have anything close on the same side. What about a UH/SH-60? Or the MiG-23, F6F, A6M2, and Yak-3? AFAIK these birds have no such other similar aircraft on the same side (theater in the WW2 case).

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Right, ED is working in 2.5, hornet and something else. But honestly, if you want F-16 plus gazillion of blocks and regional variants just go BMS.... A lot of people are also here to fly something different, not the F- notagainthatnumber. Or old jets rarely covered like F-5 (awesome). Honestly hoping they do something eastern, or european at least!

 

hey dont shoot the messenger, The F16 is an extremely wanted module for DCS in general by a large protion of the player base. Just look how many "gib F16" threads have been started, or how many people have an F16 wish listed in thier Signature, since DCS first hit. More than one could count on both hands. This is not merely me inserting my wishes to the post.

 

BMS may have multiple blocks, but the F16C's are the only realistically simulated ones there. All other aircraft have F16 style Weapons Systems and MFD pages, and despite the fantastic work of modders its an quite old in FM physics and overal Visuals to DCS. Having an F- 16 ( specifically a late block , such as the BLK 50/52) would be awesome in DCS and give the USAF its primary Workhorse multirole fighter. Even the Block 50/52 variations alone have been mass exported outside the US.

 

Just like the modernized LEgacy Hornet there is there are 21st century Vipers. Block 50/52 post 2000s mid life update will have Colour LCD's, Digital HSI, as well as Aim9x and HMCS integration, to give fully modern Strike Fighter Experience.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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Nah, staph! You are raising my hopes too much!

 

But I really wouldn't get why make an F-16? There are so many other options that don't have a really close full-fidelity counterpart, on the same side (going to be released soon in this case). You could make an AH-64, that doesn't have anything close on the same side. What about a UH/SH-60? Or the MiG-23, F6F, A6M2, and Yak-3? AFAIK these birds have no such other similar aircraft on the same side (theater in the WW2 case).

 

theres plenty of 3rd parties. to do this stuff.

 

A6M2 was planned by Magntitute. and BST or Poly chop generally do the copters.

 

ED does not have to do all of the above modules. again Doint shoot the messenger here. THis is just speculation, and in part the reality of things ( many of the playerbase like western stuff)

 

BUt back to my oroginal point , i would not discount a Mig29A or a Su27S just yet, at least not until Wags or someone from ED decides to change thier stance and recount thier prior statements.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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hey dont shoot the messenger, The F16 is an extremely wanted module for DCS in general by a large protion of the player base. Just look how many "gib F16" threads have been started, or how many people have an F16 wish listed in thier Signature, since DCS first hit. More than one could count on both hands. This is not merely me inserting my wishes to the post.

 

BMS may have multiple blocks, but the F16C's are the only realistically simulated ones there. All other aircraft have F16 style Weapons Systems and MFD pages, and despite the fantastic work of modders its an quite old in FM physics and overal Visuals to DCS. Having an F- 16 ( specifically a late block , such as the BLK 50/52) would be awesome in DCS and give the USAF its primary Workhorse multirole fighter. Even the Block 50/52 variations alone have been mass exported outside the US.

 

Just like the modernized LEgacy Hornet there is there are 21st century Vipers. Block 50/52 post 2000s mid life update will have Colour LCD's, Digital HSI, as well as Aim9x and HMCS integration, to give fully modern Strike Fighter Experience.

 

I know, is quite funny jump into a flogger jus to see it has a falcon cockpit :lol: but we're going in circles here, this is not a comparative between sims, but i'm quite aware that many of the people who flies bms frowns upon dcs and most of the ones that fly both like myself, come here looking for something different. So, its being asked for ? Yes, like many others. Too many F-s lately.... time to do something else don't you think?

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theres plenty of 3rd parties. to do this stuff.

 

I think if the F-16 or MiG-29 would be freely available to 3rd parties, somebody would already "claim" one. It may be similar case as with MiG-23. But that's just my speculation.

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I think if the F-16 or MiG-29 would be freely available to 3rd parties, somebody would already "claim" one. It may be similar case as with MiG-23. But that's just my speculation.

Well, the reason that the F-16 is not yet claimed by 3rd party's is that ED had a plan of making one. This was discontinued, but that's just my speculation.

 

For the MiG-29, there isn't much demand. And the fact that it's Russian doesn't help, even if it's old. The best hope we have is for an export variant, this way they wouldn't have to deal with the Russians. A country like Poland would be much more open to talk, it plans to get rid of it's Russian fleet in favor of superior Western designs. Still, not enough demand. So let's not lose all hope, but at the same time, let's not expect this or anything similar to be made.

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No demand for a hi-fi MiG-29?

 

I bet it would sell like hotcakes!

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