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Correctly rolling the F-15C


Gloom Demon
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What is the maximum roll angle of the F-15C so that the plane does not start shaking during a turn and try to get out of hand?

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Sorry - I am not a native English speaker, so the question was probably too vague.

 

When I want to make a turn I roll the F-15C 90 degrees and apply backwards pressure on the stick (Falcon habit :-) ). The plane starts shaking and, in a lot of cases, becomes uncontrollable, probably trying to enter a spin. I think this situation exacerbates at higher speeds - if I gain speed before launching a missile, making the plane turn afterwards frequently results in loss of control (I only have this module for two weeks and have not figured it out yet... though I have completely read the manual).

 

I presume, that maybe the right way to turn the Eagle is not to roll it 90 degrees, but to roll it less, so that it would retain controllability. Similar to the Su-25T - more than 30 or so degrees roll with backwards stick pressure results in loss of control for me.


Edited by Gloom Demon

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Your English is no excuse, the same questions are asked by those who speak it will ;-)

 

A couple of comments:

 

Did you strap am aircraft carrier to that 25T or something?

The F16 has an AoA and G limiter. The dcs aircraft do not. YOU are the AoA limiter, which means you have to learn to actually fly the plane.

 

It's all about finessing how and when and how much you pull back the stick.

 

I suggest exploring the flight envelope limits using slow flight. Fly the plane steadily at different AoAs and see how it responds to control inputs.

 

Regarding the F-15 going into uncommanded rolls at high speed, this is an FM tuning issue. Forget it exists :-)

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Or in other words: The problem is not how much you rolled the airplane, it's how much you are pulling the stick.

Solution: Pull it less.

 

If you are trying to make a coordinated level turn, a 90 degree bank angle is too much. At bank angles above 85 degrees, load factor is well over 9 G's and at 90 degrees, there is no vertical lift component, so the only way to maintain altitude would be to add rudder, unless of course you're at orbital velocities.

 

Try developing skills turning the airplane and maintaining altitude at 70 and 80 degree bank angles. These would be like 3 and 6 g turns in level flight. You will need to pull the stick back enough to maintain altitude while in the turn at those angles and advance the thrust levers accordingly to maintain speed as induced drag increases.

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Hi there

 

Right, this is probably total overkill and TL:DR, but I was bored at work and had nothing to do, so now you get: Brain Dump.

 

You may like to read up about maximum sustained turn vs maximum performance turn. Basically when you pull back hard, you are asking a lot from the aircraft and introducing more angle of attack (the angle at which airflow strikes the wing). As you turn harder, you both work the air harder and begin to approach stall angle. In short you begin to bleed off energy because you are asking too much from the aircraft. You see this in the form of shaking. The longer you hold the turn, the more energy you bleed off, and the more speed and altitude you lose.

 

Maybe this is OTT, but this is a graph of maximum sustained turn parameters for an A-10. This is a graph showing the maximum g you can exert on the aircraft, at different altitudes, speeds and loads, without bleeding off energy:

 

STFA-10A.jpg

 

You can read more about it here http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/dcs-10c-warthog-210-kias-speed-to.html . All aircraft will have their own chart, but effectively you need to experiment to find those limits.

 

Maximum Performance turn is different and will be much more aggressive, as you are doing it for less time. You will lose some energy but trade it for a better position. Greater bank angle tends to require greater stick back input, or you will essentially slide out of the air. Greater input usually means greater G, but your bank angle is not the only determinant of this.

 

Flight behaviour is hugely complicated and the more you learn the more respect you end up having for real pilots :D Of course you can't be expected to memorise that table, so instead you practise with the aircraft and differing inputs, keep an eye on your G meter and watch for speed and altitude loss and things like shaking. As someone said above, practice doing turns at different bank angles, as well as speeds, altitudes and loads.


Edited by CookPassBabtridge

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not to mention as soon as you start adding combat loads like big heavy fuel tanks, cookpass's chart changes and the aircraft's handling changes noticeably - so ideally you need to practice with different load outs too

Opinions expressed here are subjective and redundant

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If you are trying to make a coordinated level turn, a 90 degree bank angle is too much. At bank angles above 85 degrees, load factor is well over 9 G's and at 90 degrees, there is no vertical lift component, so the only way to maintain altitude would be to add rudder, unless of course you're at orbital velocities.

 

Try developing skills turning the airplane and maintaining altitude at 70 and 80 degree bank angles. These would be like 3 and 6 g turns in level flight. You will need to pull the stick back enough to maintain altitude while in the turn at those angles and advance the thrust levers accordingly to maintain speed as induced drag increases.

 

Thought we were talking about combat. Who cares about perfect level turns when dogfighting? I could perfectly be banked over 85º or even 90º and still making a 6G turn.

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not to mention as soon as you start adding combat loads like big heavy fuel tanks, cookpass's chart changes and the aircraft's handling changes noticeably - so ideally you need to practice with different load outs too

 

Hi Altimaden

 

The right hand part of the chart includes different loads in there too - gross weight line x 1000 :) If you check out the link, it tells you how to work the chart. Useless for the F-15 of course.

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Thought we were talking about combat. Who cares about perfect level turns when dogfighting? I could perfectly be banked over 85º or even 90º and still making a 6G turn.

 

I'm no expert, but in combat maneuvering you are always managing your energy. If you can out turn an opponent and get him in your sights without sacrificing energy, then that is better than doing a max performance turn that fails to give you a guns solution. Sustained turn performance lets you do that. You would need to weigh up positioning, speed differential etc and the performance of the opposing aircraft ofc.


Edited by CookPassBabtridge

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Thought we were talking about combat. Who cares about perfect level turns when dogfighting? I could perfectly be banked over 85º or even 90º and still making a 6G turn.

 

What do you mean by being "perfectly banked over"?

 

Aerodynamic principles hold true in combat and fighter pilots learn to fly before they learn to dogfight. Clearly, the OP did not understand that it is impossible to sustain a coordinated level 90 degree banked turn. I'm not saying the OP doesn't understand how airplanes turn, but clearly there is a disconnect in applying this basic knowledge to flying the airplane and my suggestion was an exercise for him to learn to develop a feel for the airplane that will translate eventually to ACM. It's easy to understand flight and then not translate our knowledge properly in the cockpit. As pilots, we should all be learning.

 

However, if you can't make precise turns at 6g in an f15, you'll never make it to combat in one, except of course here in DCS where everyone wants near perfect realism. :pilotfly:

 

My suggestion for you is to review Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators and then you can come back and explain your perfect 6g turns with 85 degrees of bank angle. Just to show me, you can demonstrate one at 500ft AGL. I'll buy you a beer after, or at least have one to remember you. :)

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increase your curve settings or turn at less stick back. The shaking is spinning is normal at excessive AoA (the new AFM)

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My suggestion for you is to review Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators

 

Hnnng now I have to buy it. I have to buy ALL THE THINGS. Well maybe ... I found a free download on the FAA site, with an edition updated in 1965... do you know if the paid one on amazon actually has enough new info in it to warrant a purchase? I know from uni that flight theory has been revised a lot since then - circulation, momentum effects, coanda, would the old version be primarily bernoulli oriented?

 

I want to be a Naval Aviatorrrr! Rather than a Navel Gazerrrr :)

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Hnnng now I have to buy it. I have to buy ALL THE THINGS. Well maybe ... I found a free download on the FAA site, with an edition updated in 1965... do you know if the paid one on amazon actually has enough new info in it to warrant a purchase? I know from uni that flight theory has been revised a lot since then - circulation, momentum effects, coanda, would the old version be primarily bernoulli oriented?

 

I want to be a Naval Aviatorrrr! Rather than a Navel Gazerrrr :)

 

I have the print version at home, but my guess is it is the same as the FAAs PDF. I have all kinds of the print versions of this stuff and generally the FAA keeps the newest revisions online, so by all means take advantage of the free PDF. The hard copy I have as a big approx 8 1/2" x 11 softcover bound book. It's nice to work out of, but it would be nice if they reformatted the whole thing and updated some of the graphics. Then again, it's kind of cool in a nostalgic way.

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The F-15 will in some cases if you continue to try to turn at low speed go into a stall so ideally you want a higher speed for the turn. From my experience 400-450kts is a good speed to turn, if you try to turn too much the speed bleeds from my experience and when that happens relax pressure on the stick, unload the G, build up some speed or drop the nose and then carry on. 250kts is the speed where you should try to avoid going below otherwise you will stall(previous FM SFM had this at 200kts).:joystick:

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What do you mean by being "perfectly banked over"?

 

Aerodynamic principles hold true in combat and fighter pilots learn to fly before they learn to dogfight. Clearly, the OP did not understand that it is impossible to sustain a coordinated level 90 degree banked turn. I'm not saying the OP doesn't understand how airplanes turn, but clearly there is a disconnect in applying this basic knowledge to flying the airplane and my suggestion was an exercise for him to learn to develop a feel for the airplane that will translate eventually to ACM. It's easy to understand flight and then not translate our knowledge properly in the cockpit. As pilots, we should all be learning.

 

However, if you can't make precise turns at 6g in an f15, you'll never make it to combat in one, except of course here in DCS where everyone wants near perfect realism. :pilotfly:

 

My suggestion for you is to review Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators and then you can come back and explain your perfect 6g turns with 85 degrees of bank angle. Just to show me, you can demonstrate one at 500ft AGL. I'll buy you a beer after, or at least have one to remember you. :)

 

There is one condition where the F-15 PFM will just continue to turn at full burner at 500-2000ft, it'll just keep turning at max G and not bleed speed which is quite awesome compared to the F-16.:pilotfly:

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Hnnng now I have to buy it. I have to buy ALL THE THINGS. Well maybe ... I found a free download on the FAA site, with an edition updated in 1965... do you know if the paid one on amazon actually has enough new info in it to warrant a purchase? I know from uni that flight theory has been revised a lot since then - circulation, momentum effects, coanda, would the old version be primarily bernoulli oriented?

 

I want to be a Naval Aviatorrrr! Rather than a Navel Gazerrrr :)

 

Try the USAF Multi-command handbook might be a better option which is free:

 

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

 

Checkout the Air to Air section, although its for F-16s the same dogfight stuff can be applied to the F-15. BTW corner speed F-15C 440-550kts.:thumbup:

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Try the USAF Multi-command handbook might be a better option which is free:

 

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

 

Checkout the Air to Air section, although its for F-16s the same dogfight stuff can be applied to the F-15. BTW corner speed F-15C 440-550kts.:thumbup:

 

Thank you for the link :)

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Yeah, really.

 

It's 350-420, dependent mostly on weight - it's like that on the real aircraft, and it's like that in-game. Any less, you start losing a lot of turn rate. Any more, you start losing a lot of turn radius.

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  • 1 month later...

You guys have any tips regarding setting stick curves for maximum Eagle controllability? or is that something that differs per joystick type?

 

I find that in most of the envelope I hardly use more than one fourth of the travel of the stick at default setting so I reckon nice flat curve is in order. This will however break the wings off if I yank it to max.

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