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Sorry, I am still confused on this, let me try and summarise what I think is the case in 3 different scenarios.

 

Scenario 1:


  1. Pilot A launches missile at Pilot B
  2. Pilot B is hit by that missile
  3. Pilot B rides flaming wreck to ground and perishes in flames


  • Pilot A is awarded one kill
  • Pilot B is reported with one death

Scenario 2:


  1. Pilot A launches missile at Pilot B
  2. Pilot B is hit by that missile
  3. Pilot B ejects safely before his jet impacts into the ground


  • Pilot A is awarded one kill
  • Pilot B is reported with one ejection (but importantly no death is recorded on his Stats.

Scenario 3:


  1. Pilot A launches missile at Pilot B
  2. Pilot B knowing his death is imminent and he does not have the resources to avoid it, takes the soft option and ejects safely
  3. Pilot B parachutes while his jet impacts with the ground.


  • Pilot A is NOT awarded one kill
  • Pilot B is reported with one ejection, albeit premature

In Scenario 1 the Victor gets a Kill point and just as importantly the vanquished gets a death point.

 

In Scenario 2 the Victor still gets a Kill point but is robbed off the opportunity to suppress the vanquished further by adding to his death count.

 

In Scenario 3 its a total loss of possible points, missiles and time, for pilot A, all of which could have been better spent pursuing a more worthy opponent.

 

If the above scenarios are correct in how the points are allocated, then in the interest of maintaining acccurate statistics on a leaderboard, notwithstanding that ejecting from a disabled jet would seem to be the logical thing to do, perhaps ejection under any circumstances should be frowned upon, if not outlawed, and harshly discriminated against with the possible banning either temporarily or permanently of any pilots seen participating in the non sportsmanlike act of premature ejection.

 

 

Suck it up and take it like a real man...and dont forget to acknowledge with a quick little Ctrl + M "gk" upon impact.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Killer

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If a pilot flys with one hand on the ejection handle... he wont be flying LOFC for long on any servers... as someone in this thread pointed out (i havent seen this type of behavior yet, but then again i havent been online long). In the meantime, i guess the victor at least gets the fun of seeing fireworks, and perhaps could strafe the fledging coward in his chute to get a kill? It is only a game afterall...

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The other thing that would be nice to see is your plane exploding after you get hit instead of an abrupt switch to Theater with externals off. The chat window should also show the kill, eject.. etc... instead of "crash" in the event log. Is this a bug? Or just by design.....

 

When i first started flying online, i thought there was a problem with my software that is was CTD (but crashing to Theater) until i was told i been shot down when that happens... If im getting shot down... i wanna see fireworks when i explode dammit! And i also want to be able to see who shot me down without searching the event log. Is it hard to retain this feature if externals are off?

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Aah externals off, ...thats always got me too since joining online servers, like you first up I thought I had connection problems too, thats a real shame as I spend quite a bit of time in flaming jets and have developed a real appreciation for the fireball, its all a bit of an anticlimax really for the victim. I guess the only way to get a good view is to be the victor.

 

Just re-read the last few pages again and realised I missed a few scenarios

 

Scenario 4:


  1. Pilot A locks on to Pilot B
  2. Pilot B knowing his death is imminent and he does not have the resources to avoid it, takes the soft option and ejects safely
  3. Pilot B parachutes while his jet impacts with the ground
  4. OR pilots his jet directly into the ground


  • Pilot A is NOT awarded one kill (in fact he never got a missile off)
  • Pilot B is reported with one ejection/death, depending on which mode of departure he selected.

I am not sure why this is a good idea for pilot B as he will have a ejection/death demerit recorded either way, he has simply robbed the pursuer Pilot A from a possible kill, unless exiting the server immediately afterwards negates this. The lengths that some people will go to for fame and fortune, well fame anyway.

Killer

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Another thing i'd really like to know is why the Mig-29S is available for online leader boards when its not available as a flyable in single player? Does this mean we can have an F-16C? Or a Walrus?

 

edit: And why does the manual cover the N-001 and N-019 along with a detailed description of the APG-63 and its weaknesses, but fails to cover the N-019M Topaz currently used in the most popular interceptor online? Manual pages 114-117

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To say that mig29 pilots are more skilled than F15 Pilots is a Ridiculous statement IMO. Especially when SOME of us fly all the aircraft and DONT have a preference

 

It is only natural that the Most effective aircraft would have the most people flying it. Especially on a Stats board.

 

Think about this: IF the Mig 29 and the F15 were Evenly matched and IF the were were 50% more migs on the map, There would be more Targets for the F15 and therefore More kills for the F15 than the Mig29.

 

Agreed, and to note: There is a few clear problems with the Mig-29 vs the F15. 1 problem is the fact that you won't see a mig-29 in this game until it is too late. Now dont take this out of context. This is'nt an element based on skill, but infact how the game is made. Migs in this game cannot be seen unless your about 2 miles away. What this does, is it allows the mig to hide in the weeds looking for a f-15 or any other jet at about 18 miles away!(nose cold, looking visually) Now you will probably bring on the fact that the f-15 radar is superior to that of the mig, and you should be able to find him on scope. This is true, but also note that you can lock a mig dead on at lets say angels 10, in front of you in TWS and lose lock around 10-20 miles. This is a problem! The real f15 radar is so powerful that it will maintain a lock! Now taking into account that normally you are not flying dead on at angels 10...

 

...I would say 95% of all pilots using the mig in this game fly low in the weeds. F-15 is at angels 20 locking a mig at 40 miles in TWS... Mig will stay locked until about 10-20 miles. usually loosing lock at around 18miles. Problem here is the fact that the f-15 cant see the mig visually. However, the mig can see that f-15 clear as day. All that mig now has to do is hide from him. come up and shoot him down... Thus, an unfair unrealalistic advantage.

 

 

IF the f-15 had a superior radar and it acted as it does in the REAL F-15 the radar would hardly ever lose lock unless a very good beam or the fact that the mig went behind a hill. Thus, I believe giving more kills to the f-15 then the mig-29. Simply put and its proven in the real world, the F-15 is the worlds most superior a2a fighter.

 

So what I'm trying to say here is:

The mig-29 is chosen more often esspically now because many players are learning to exploit this, They are also getting more kills because of this very reason. I'm not using exploit in a negative term. It's just it has 2 clear advantages over the f-15 that I would say atleast 1 of these will hold validity in real life. 1) visual site limitations and 2) fact that the radar sucks in the f-15 at close range.

 

 

Someone, used the argument that a very good f15 pilot could defeat a very good mig-29 pilot. I dissagree because of the problems the f-15 has in this sim.

 

Not to gloat or anything, but I do consider myself as a very good F-15 Pilot... However, doe to the problems in the F-15 I find my self disengaging more than ever. My #1 Priority is to get my plane back in one piece.

 

...and to think i', not even bringing up at how bad 120's suck now.

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A 'kill' denotes you shot someone down.

A 'death' denotes you were shot down.

 

Eject all you want, you still gonna lose that point for being shot down.(aircraft kill).

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A 'kill' denotes you shot someone down.

A 'death' denotes you were shot down.

 

Eject all you want, you still gonna lose that point for being shot down.(aircraft kill).

 

Thanks Dredd, now if thats the case, as simple as you state it, whats everyone worried about?

Killer

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Agreed, and to note: There is a few clear problems with the Mig-29 vs the F15. 1 problem is the fact that you won't see a mig-29 in this game until it is too late. Now dont take this out of context. This is'nt an element based on skill, but infact how the game is made. Migs in this game cannot be seen unless your about 2 miles away. What this does, is it allows the mig to hide in the weeds looking for a f-15 or any other jet at about 18 miles away!(nose cold, looking visually) Now you will probably bring on the fact that the f-15 radar is superior to that of the mig, and you should be able to find him on scope. This is true, but also note that you can lock a mig dead on at lets say angels 10, in front of you in TWS and lose lock around 10-20 miles. This is a problem! The real f15 radar is so powerful that it will maintain a lock! Now taking into account that normally you are not flying dead on at angels 10...

 

...I would say 95% of all pilots using the mig in this game fly low in the weeds. F-15 is at angels 20 locking a mig at 40 miles in TWS... Mig will stay locked until about 10-20 miles. usually loosing lock at around 18miles. Problem here is the fact that the f-15 cant see the mig visually. However, the mig can see that f-15 clear as day. All that mig now has to do is hide from him. come up and shoot him down... Thus, an unfair unrealalistic advantage.

 

 

IF the f-15 had a superior radar and it acted as it does in the REAL F-15 the radar would hardly ever lose lock unless a very good beam or the fact that the mig went behind a hill. Thus, I believe giving more kills to the f-15 then the mig-29. Simply put and its proven in the real world, the F-15 is the worlds most superior a2a fighter.

 

So what I'm trying to say here is:

The mig-29 is chosen more often esspically now because many players are learning to exploit this, They are also getting more kills because of this very reason. I'm not using exploit in a negative term. It's just it has 2 clear advantages over the f-15 that I would say atleast 1 of these will hold validity in real life. 1) visual site limitations and 2) fact that the radar sucks in the f-15 at close range.

 

 

Someone, used the argument that a very good f15 pilot could defeat a very good mig-29 pilot. I dissagree because of the problems the f-15 has in this sim.

 

Not to gloat or anything, but I do consider myself as a very good F-15 Pilot... However, doe to the problems in the F-15 I find my self disengaging more than ever. My #1 Priority is to get my plane back in one piece.

 

...and to think i', not even bringing up at how bad 120's suck now.

 

Absolutely agree with this. However I would like to add something on the F-15's radar.

The disapearing act by the part of the mig is more of a consequence of it leaving the antenna view cone. The closer he gets to you while hes lower, the narrower is the beam projected downwords. You have to place the radar cursor right next to the target mark and adjust constantly the antenna elevation. You have to do this and reduce the radars range scale so you can do this more easely. The real F-15 keeps the antnna centered automaticaly but aparently there was not enough time to implement this on the game so you have to do it yourself manualy.

In order to do this its ESSENTIAL that you have a very practical stick profile. Youll become blind if you try to use the keyboard.

 

The fact that you loose lock when he notches and beams you its not even a major concern to me. You can always place the cursor where he will be expected to turn and lock him again.

What bothers me the most its realy the weak perfomance of the AMRAAM. Without a more realistic resistance to chaff and clutter there is no point to multi engage because your only going winchester faster without scoring any kill. This efectively prompts the enemy to rely on numbers since you will be forced to STT for firing the sparrows and take 1 on 1 with them.

My tactic is to keep my intentions hidden untill the missile goes active on the target (TWS at 15 miles) and then use sparrows once he becomes defensive. This should give enough time to prevent him from firing back before you hit him with the Sparrow.

However if the mig pilot is smarter than that, Im afraid you have to risk it by guiding your Sparrows while your being shot at by his wingmen with higher ranged and faster missiles. Not good indeed.

I realy wish I could multi engage because then I could pick the most exposed target out of the runing MOB like a pack of wolves does with a herd of buffaloes.

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To say that mig29 pilots are more skilled than F15 Pilots is a Ridiculous statement IMO. Especially when SOME of us fly all the aircraft and DONT have a preference

 

It is only natural that the Most effective aircraft would have the most people flying it. Especially on a Stats board.

 

Think about this: IF the Mig 29 and the F15 were Evenly matched and IF the were were 50% more migs on the map, There would be more Targets for the F15 and therefore More kills for the F15 than the Mig29.

 

Right, but this is not where we are hinting at. Mostly, these kind of stats do not have normal distribution, for the simple reason some small percentage of players are *way* more proficient than others. These produce "outlier" measurements that affect a proper means calculation.

 

This is very apparent from the 169th stats. To be honest, the top-ten players take it all, where the very large majority has a far lower score (by a factor ten at the least). This is a very familiar statistical phenomenon on most ladders and ranking boards.

 

A player like you, Ice, is worth several tens of players like me, tflash, (not even on the list), not only on the air but also measured in impact on the statistics. This is a much greater factor then the supposed aircraft performance, given the difference in observations.

 

The top-ten players account for the majority of hours spend of the server also. It really does make a difference what planes *they* fly.

 

(But as it stands, I do not think it would alter the conclusion on the Mig-29S. We cannot escape the fact it is the premium Lockon fighter)

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Absolutely agree with this. However I would like to add something on the F-15's radar.

The disapearing act by the part of the mig is more of a consequence of it leaving the antenna view cone. The closer he gets to you while hes lower, the narrower is the beam projected downwords. You have to place the radar cursor right next to the target mark and adjust constantly the antenna elevation. You have to do this and reduce the radars range scale so you can do this more easely. The real F-15 keeps the antnna centered automaticaly but aparently there was not enough time to implement this on the game so you have to do it yourself manualy.

In order to do this its ESSENTIAL that you have a very practical stick profile. Youll become blind if you try to use the keyboard.

 

The fact that you loose lock when he notches and beams you its not even a major concern to me. You can always place the cursor where he will be expected to turn and lock him again.

What bothers me the most its realy the weak perfomance of the AMRAAM. Without a more realistic resistance to chaff and clutter there is no point to multi engage because your only going winchester faster without scoring any kill. This efectively prompts the enemy to rely on numbers since you will be forced to STT for firing the sparrows and take 1 on 1 with them.

My tactic is to keep my intentions hidden untill the missile goes active on the target (TWS at 15 miles) and then use sparrows once he becomes defensive. This should give enough time to prevent him from firing back before you hit him with the Sparrow.

However if the mig pilot is smarter than that, Im afraid you have to risk it by guiding your Sparrows while your being shot at by his wingmen with higher ranged and faster missiles. Not good indeed.

I realy wish I could multi engage because then I could pick the most exposed target out of the runing MOB like a pack of wolves does with a herd of buffaloes.

 

 

Yeah, totally agree. And I do have a good very good profile for my x-52 in tws, im adjusting elevation ever so often to make sure I dont lose lock... however, it fails tbh, 9 times outta 10. And yeah, the amraam is crap. They really need to fix these things.

 

TBH I would rather have black shark delayed a couple more months to get this workign as it should be.

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The numbers Ice quoted above do not show that the MiG is more efficient.

What we need is this kind of stat:

F-15C

893 : 1101

MiG-29S

From the 504 stats. http://www.syn-ack.com/vvs504/stats/vvs504-aircraft.shtml

HOWEVER, we need it from a server which does not operate EWR on missions, as this is where a lot of the difference could be.

Secondly the server is often used by great hordes of 504th FW flying on th sam side with TS on against assorted casual players, solo aces and squad fragments Proof? ->

Su-33

842 : 860

F-15C

 

Su-27

740 : 675

F-15C

(figures show kills, not ratios)

So if you could organise your stats like that on 169th/77th then we could have a more accurate measure.

This is still flawed as it is open to skew from more of one airframe being flown.

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You could always reject players with a squad tag in the calculations, and see how this comes out.

 

This might be more accurate for the 'average' player. MIGHT. None of these are scientific studies.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the boards need tobe reset because I was... burgled the other day by some unsavoury individuals who on seeing my pit decided to abuse my baby by flying on the 169th server shooting down several friendlys ,crashing on take off and landings and just generally being a nuisance to myself.:mad: I apprehended the said individuals in the middle of their callous enjoyment and apprehended them with the aid of some kungfukarateoragami sh*t. But to my dismay discovered that I now sat at the bottom of the list. :(

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Frost1e, although I sympathize for your situation we will not be able to reset the stats server until the end of the competition. Please understand if we make an exception for on individual then we would have to consider all situations. This will bring in arguments about what is fair to change and what isn't. Then we get to the "well you did it for them" argument and finally we just end in a big brawl. If you’re really worried about your position on the stats page just go do some of that pilot sh*t and get those stats back up.

 

S!

Helix

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1 fly

 

I flyed once on 169 last week and after 3win and 1 loose i saw in stats only 2 wins and 1 loose. After all wins I landed on runway and disconnected. Only on one server i saw 100percent statistics, maybe because they upload score in a moment, not after server restart or something like that. It is Dreyou server. On 504 I saw another problems like - friendly kill was not in stats after fly and so. So it doesnt reflect real score.

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Somebody else destroyed the debris of one of your downed enemies getting credited for it isntead of you.

It happens alot. Usualy if your not credited for 1 aircraft for the scoreboards fault, then youll not get credited for any other. It usualy counts all or none.

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Ether that or it was a ground pounder like an A-10 or a Su25. These aircraft will not score as kills on the "Fighter Town" page. Soon we will have a "Ground Pounder" Page and their losses will be recorded here.

 

So, in short if you kill 2 fighters and one ground pounder you will only show 2 kills or points in the "Fighter Town" page.

 

In fact I have found the entry in Question...

RED SVK_Fox MiG-29S BLUE 169th_Cyber A-10A R-27ET (AA-10D)

This will not count as a killon the "Fighter Town" page.

Cyber will record a loss in the "Ground Pounder" page when it is completed. We save all logs.

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