Engine durability

[fjacobsen]

Yesterday I was trying to wreck my engine by purpose...

 

I was flying in circles at 300 km/h with full power + MW50.

I could keep on flying with no sign og engine failure/degradation for more than 15 mins.

 

What does it take to make it fail ?

 

FinnJ

[fastfreddie]

There are some post on this already but yes it can be killed. Believe it or not I've killed more engines after I turned off the MW50 for some reason. Sometimes within seconds but this of coarse is after a long period of overheating.

[pemigris]

There are some post on this already but yes it can be killed. Believe it or not I've killed more engines after I turned off the MW50 for some reason. Sometimes within seconds but this of coarse is after a long period of overheating.

 

This is due to the fact that mw50 also cools down the engine.

[Friedrich-4B]

There are some post on this already but yes it can be killed. Believe it or not I've killed more engines after I turned off the MW50 for some reason. Sometimes within seconds but this of coarse is after a long period of overheating.

 

That's because the MW50 cools the engine; once the MW50 is turned off after already overheating the engine of course the engines are going to cook and die.

[fjacobsen]

Hmmm

 

I have now buzzed around with full power and no MW-50 at 3300 RPM, 300 km/h for 30 mins and no sign of engine failure yet.

Ambient temp at sealevel is 20°C

 

Under same circumstances (Max Power, low IAS and ambien temperature 20°C ) the P-51D fails within 5 mins or less.

 

 

***Edit***

I have now been standing still on the ground, holding the toe brakes down, with 2700 RPM at 30°C outside air temperature, both Water and Oil temps pegged at their maximum for 10 mins, with no consequence.

This cannot be right !!

 

Ticket #33318 send

 

 

 

FinnJ

Edited August 7, 2014 by fjacobsen

[NineLine]

No need to clog up the ticket system for early beta bugs, I will check it out myself later and report as needed, thanks!

 

Hmmm

 

I have now buzzed around with full power and no MW-50 at 3300 RPM, 300 km/h for 30 mins and no sign of engine failure yet.

Ambient temp at sealevel is 20°C

 

Under same circumstances (Max Power, low IAS and ambien temperature 20°C ) the P-51D fails within 5 mins or less.

 

 

***Edit***

I have now been standing still on the ground, holding the toe brakes down, with 2700 RPM at 30°C outside air temperature, both Water and Oil temps pegged at their maximum for 10 mins, with no consequence.

This cannot be right !!

 

Ticket #33318 send

 

 

 

FinnJ

[NineLine]

Please also supply a track with any issues like this so we can see what you are seeing.

[El Hadji]

I blew up my engine yesterday. I don't recall hearing any weird noise prior to the engine giving up though.

[Sabredog]

Vorsprung durch Technik...

[Isegrim]

Ahm guys if you like the Jumo to die close the radiator flaps.

[fjacobsen]

Ahm guys if you like the Jumo to die close the radiator flaps.

 

And how do You do that ?

 

I know the knob hidden below, but it seems You can only open it between the automatically set position and full open. It cannot be fully closed .

 

If anybody can tell me how to blow it up - please enlighten me ;)

 

I wiil make a track later today !

 

 

FinnJ

[zagan]

Maybe, it's correct?

 

Narzi's made stuff too well actually, that it's now a problem these days to keep a plane in the air, their tanks have the same problem as well... parts are made too good.

 

The parts/blocks have such fine tolerances that you can't make parts to fit into the narzi made engines.

 

This causes engines to last much longer and have less problems back in the day, today though it gives the problem of require the old original parts to make engines work again.

[WinterH]

I had my engine die 2 times today. Try dogfighting some jets and you're quite likely to run the poor engine out of breath rather quick :D

 

One time, it was right after a long falling spin, so I wonder if it was due to a fuel feed problem from spin or earlier long time of full power and low speed running while chasing climbing l-39s :P.

[fjacobsen]

I had my engine die 2 times today. Try dogfighting some jets and you're quite likely to run the poor engine out of breath rather quick :D

 

One time, it was right after a long falling spin, so I wonder if it was due to a fuel feed problem from spin or earlier long time of full power and low speed running while chasing climbing l-39s :P.

 

Note that the engine will die, but not fail if flying with negative G's for a short period (The low fuel warning lights for the Forward and Aft tank will light up.

 

FinnJ

[fjacobsen]

Maybe, it's correct?

 

Narzi's made stuff too well actually, that it's now a problem these days to keep a plane in the air, their tanks have the same problem as well... parts are made too good.

 

The parts/blocks have such fine tolerances that you can't make parts to fit into the narzi made engines.

 

This causes engines to last much longer and have less problems back in the day, today though it gives the problem of require the old original parts to make engines work again.

 

It was a general problem for aircraft developers during WW2 to cool the engines sufficiently.

 

The first versions of FW-190 A's had great troubles too.

 

While the FW-190 D9 might had quite a good cooling system, it cannot be right, compared to the P-51D, which overheats after 3 mins at full power, that the FW-190 can fly at full power / no MW-50 foe 35 mins and still not quit.

 

But I will make a track later as told.

 

 

FinnJ

[Narushima]

It was a general problem for aircraft developers during WW2 to cool the engines sufficiently.

 

The first versions of FW-190 A's had great troubles too.

 

While the FW-190 D9 might had quite a good cooling system, it cannot be right, compared to the P-51D, which overheats after 3 mins at full power, that the FW-190 can fly at full power / no MW-50 foe 35 mins and still not quit.

 

But I will make a track later as told.

 

 

FinnJ

 

How do you know it's not right? Do you have any numbers on cooling efficiency for the D-9 radiator?

 

Yo-Yo (the FM builder) said:

TO power in emergency is permitted not more than 30 minuts

So, take off power (3250 RPM, no MW-50) could be used for up to 30 minutes. That's from the manual, I assume, which would have some safety factor involved, so the real number would probably be more (probably limited by the fuel load, ~45 minutes).
Edited August 8, 2014 by Narushima

[Konrad Friedrich]

It was a general problem for aircraft developers during WW2 to cool the engines sufficiently.

 

The first versions of FW-190 A's had great troubles too.

 

While the FW-190 D9 might had quite a good cooling system, it cannot be right, compared to the P-51D, which overheats after 3 mins at full power, that the FW-190 can fly at full power / no MW-50 foe 35 mins and still not quit.

 

But I will make a track later as told.

 

 

FinnJ

 

They had engines on the test bench that emptied a complete tank of fuel at max. ATA (but without MW-50).

I think one of the developers posted it in the forum.

Or was it a post from Krupi?

Just sweep through the threads. You'll find the information.

 

Never mind... The Jumo could handle full power output that long.

It was 30 minutes 3250 rpm (no MW-50) - then 10 minutes break at lower settings to keep the engine alive.

The use of MW-50 was restricted to 10 minutes.

But they had engines that were running considerably longer.

 

As long as the engine is cooled properly by open radiators and a good air speed - it will last.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Konrad Friedrich

[fjacobsen]

They had engines on the test bench that emptied a complete tank of fuel at max. ATA (but without MW-50).

I think one of the developers posted it in the forum.

Or was it a post from Krupi?

Just sweep through the threads. You'll find the information.

 

Never mind... The Jumo could handle full power output that long.

It was 30 minutes 3250 rpm (no MW-50) - then 10 minutes break at lower settings to keep the engine alive.

The use of MW-50 was restricted to 10 minutes.

But they had engines that were running considerably longer.

 

As long as the engine is cooled properly by open radiators and a good air speed - it will last.

 

You might be right (though I would hate to admit it :cry:) ...

This is a flight test rapport I found:

 

A loose translation:

Cooling performance wise, there are no difference to the other 213 engines of same build tested.

The highest temperature, at combat power (3000 RPM) of the cooling fluid, measured on the hottest summerday +26°C, did not exceed 103°C at the falloff altitude of 7500m.

The temperature limit, specified by the manufacturer, of 100° at all altitudes was only exceeded slighlty.

 

So maybe it really was hard to overheat the Jumo 213.

 

On another flighttest report, the 30 min limit for use of MW-0 was also mentioned, though it was known that engines had run much longer than that without issues (With a Pony on my tail and an engine that botherwise sounds in good shape, I would rather keep using MW-50, than being shot down and that way shortened the engine lifetime).

 

Maybe the continous use of MW-50 only degrades engine life and thats why the limit was set

 

But this also add a further advantage over the P-51D (DCS at least), that cannot sustain full power for very long.

 

 

Sorry if I made up a bug that isn't present :music_whistling:

 

 

FinnJ

Edited August 8, 2014 by fjacobsen

[fjacobsen]

So more testing done....

 

I set OAT to 35°C

Sitting on the ground with brakes applied

Power= 2700 RPM

 

After approximately 5 mins the engine died.

 

So overheating is modelled, but very hard to achieve, which seems correct according to the real world flightests.

 

Track:

FW_190_OH.trk

 

 

FinnJ

[Blech]

Hi,

 

The question is - what is simulated ?

I hope we will get a revised manual with more technical charts from DCS

 

 

Close, but not exact the same plane and engine as the D9

TA 152 H-0 pre production modell

Engine : Jumo 213E

High altitude version of 213A (D9), equipped with a three-speed two-stage intercooled supercharger and delivering 1,750 PS (2,050 PS with MW 50 boost) take-off power

MW50 is not mentioned in the small german manual

 

##### Edit :

See #21 in this thread

The H-0 has no MW 50

The H-1 has MW 50 and GM1 (?)

 

 

http://freechecklists.net/getDoc.asp?fpath=docFolder/Pilots_Notes_for_Ta_152H.pdf

 

:D translation - two charts in one ( page 5 + 9 )

Edited August 9, 2014 by Blech

[Flying-Kane]

 

MW50 is not mentioned in the small german manual

 

 

The Ta152H-0 had no MW50 / GM1.

 

Only the H-1 had both of it.

[Blech]

The Ta152H-0 had no MW50 / GM1.

 

Only the H-1 had both of it.

 

 

Thx,

 

What is GM1 ?

[OutOnTheOP]

They had engines on the test bench that emptied a complete tank of fuel at max. ATA (but without MW-50).

I think one of the developers posted it in the forum.

Or was it a post from Krupi?

Just sweep through the threads. You'll find the information.

 

Never mind... The Jumo could handle full power output that long.

It was 30 minutes 3250 rpm (no MW-50) - then 10 minutes break at lower settings to keep the engine alive.

The use of MW-50 was restricted to 10 minutes.

But they had engines that were running considerably longer.

 

As long as the engine is cooled properly by open radiators and a good air speed - it will last.

 

I seem to recall the US putting Merlins through a 7 1/2 hour no-fail requirement when they were testing the new (as of mid-'44) 100/150 octane avgas. I'm not sure if it was at full mil, or full WEP, but I believe the latter. (*edit* it was 7 1/2 hours at 75" WEP, see http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/44-1_Fuel-16March44.pdf and http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/75inch-clearance-v-1650-7.jpg )

 

I am pretty sure it was hooked up to a much larger cooling system than employed on the actual aircraft, though... and the same is almost certainly true for any test-stand running of the Jumo.

Edited August 9, 2014 by OutOnTheOP

[Flying-Kane]

Thx,

 

What is GM1 ?

 

Hi Blech,

 

about GM1:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM-1

[Blech]

Thx