How to Takeoff in the Dora

[159th_Viper]

Small question: which is the largest runway on the DCS map? :music_whistling:

 

Mineralnye Vody.

[wormeaten]

I was watching some documentary about FW 190 and pilots say they have trick to get more stability and better view. After they star rolling the quick step on the breaks what rise tail much more sooner and than they have better control.

Check this video on 2:05 when FW 190 start rolling.

 

 

BTW I have problems only with FW 190 not with other planes. For example P-51 I take off more easy than Spitfire in Il2 CloD. FW is definitely over done and check the video to prove this issue.

Pilot imput is minimal to easy keep plane steady. Same way like is the case with P-51 in DCS.

Edited September 8, 2014 by wormeaten

[airdoc]

BTW I have problems only with FW 190 not with other planes. For example P-51 I take off more easy than Spitfire in Il2 CloD. FW is definitely over done and check the video to prove this issue.

Pilot imput is minimal to easy keep plane steady. Same way like is the case with P-51 in DCS.

 

If you practice enough, you 'll find that both the Dora and the P51 in DCS can take off with minimal input.

Minimal = occasional abrupt rudder input to keep the plane on the runway.

You just have to set up your controls properly and go over the procedure the correct way. Mistakes cost, as they did in RL.

 

At first, we all experienced frustration on taking off with these birds. You 'll get so much better with experience, so practice, practice and practice :)

 

There is no comparison between DCS modules and *any* other sim product in the physics simulation part. DCS will provide you with an experience as close to reality as it gets.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Mates, really, this is a Beta and released a few weeks ago module. Don't start with the "it's overdone" thing even before you master it. P-51 also was very difficult to master at first beta stage, now it's way easier to handle so it's finished!! Expect something like that in Dora, that's all.

 

 

Anyway, I have to say although a hard to fly thing (I love it :) ) it's not so difficult to take-off (way more difficult to land with all that nose in front of you). Just don't lift tail at all. I have no tail dragger rating in my licence, but I have flown a couple of them and know the theory, and raising tail increases take-off run and makes it harder due to change in torque momentum. So I have to say DCS isn't overdone even while Beta, just you don't know what the real thing is like because she matches every detail as it should be, a bit more nervous than final product probably but not overdone. Just take-off with lower tail (as it's recommended in many tail dragger manuals), keeping a bit of back stick and letting her to fly alone. Over command is a bad idea in all airplanes, but in a classic one are worst, and DCS matches that!! Keeping tail low I was able to take-off since my very first attempt, you will see torque doesn't kicks you so hard, and when mastered after a few take-offs you can then experiment with raising tail watching at the reactions she has.

 

One of my instructors said to me about tail draggers, "she wants to go out of runway, just you don't know when and where she will, but she wants to and you have to react before she goes anywhere because she will go out if you are distracted just a second. Clues are there, just you have to look at them and be quicker than aircraft". DCS has not only that behaviour on the airplane, also have the clues, even the slightest... and that's why I like it sooo much, it's just like the real thing like any other sim ever. So, be a pilot my friend, watch the clues, and you'll be fine with her :pilotfly:.

 

S!

 

Edit: give a try to using brakes if you want to, this is a sim and you'll not pay the broken aircraft, but that's not a good idea to rise the tail sooner or using brakes while in take-off run. Let that to a guy sitting in the real thing with thousands of hours in high powered aircraft :smilewink:. Anyway, Dora has a larger fuselage, the problem you name and reason to use brakes is called aerodynamic shadow (not sure in English), but Dora lacks it with a larger fuselage.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ala13_ManOWar

[wormeaten]

Guys take it easy.

 

My intentions are good. Even it is critics but with good intentions. I'm aware this is Beta but if we don't discus about it how could be better polished as final product?

 

I got Dora and Mustang in same time and start first with Dora and have more hours spend on Dora than on Mustang. So Mustang is piece of cake from first time.

 

I'm not such a noob to not know how to take off but handling Dora is impossible mission for me. Rudder just not react the same every time. I have about 5 take off with P 51 and all was smooth and easy with perfect straight direction. On other side with Dora I have at least 50 take off and I'm not sure if I put her in the air 5 times and every time with heavy struggle. Just before I rich half of the airstrip I end it out of it no matter left or right. Lot of people have exactly same problems, also I did'n see single video with smooth take off with Dora on Youtube.

 

About breaks and that what I give aspect and send video to prove the point what I hear real Luftwafe pilots who fly this plane in real life so that is full realistic feature no descust about it at all. I just mention this and that is on DEVs are they try to implement it or not but if this is possible and even demands in real life than should be implemented in flight model if as you say this is realistic sim.

[wormeaten]

Right now lot of us have same problems but unfortunately after 23 pages of discussion didn't yet find proper advice which will help me realize what I did wrong to correct it.

 

It is harder to land than other planes but if I failed it I know exactly what I did wrong and it was my mistake and next time avoid the mistake and all is good.

 

But here with taking off I don't know. I try every advice here and follow procedure from official video. try with max 2500 RPM same as 3000 or max similar results really don't know what I'm doing wrong. Bitch just doing on her own.

Sometime like there is no input from rudder than at all than input is to hard. Sometime you put correction on rudder but plane continuing goes where it was like speedway motorcycle.

 

How I could practice when there is no logical explanation what I did wrong to correct.

 

Of course we are talking about sim level without any AI help in Game mod she taking off by her self.

Edited September 9, 2014 by wormeaten

[Ala13_ManOWar]

No problem mate, I don't blame you because it's hard like the real thing :smilewink:.

 

 

Did you tried what I said? I mean, line up the runway, let the aircraft move a bit forward to properly lock the tail wheel (like in RL, even with a Cessna you have to... did I yet said I LOVE IT?), when tail wheel locked apply throttle, not too slow but not fast, do it continuous, no bursts at all, you can try 2500, 3000 revs or whatever you want cause it's not a problem and she is plenty of power anyway, keep the stick a bit back (not too much if you don't want her to fly too soon) and let run, amazingly you need few to no rudder at all (take-off assistance disabled), and let fly when she wants to that way, three points attitude, don't pull up just let her fly. When you are airborne and with a bit more speed (250+ Km/H) you are fine and you can start "flying" her.

 

 

About taxi I red somewhere, and I just remembered after trying Dora :shocking: , German pilots taxied stick back, tail wheel locked, and turned using differential brakes because the wild response with tail wheel free... that's what happens here so do the same.

 

Even more, I just remember something the instructor who made my PPL exam told me. He's an old pilot, he has flown lots of different aircraft, and talking about tail draggers he explained, "American aircraft usually are "easy" (the easy a tail dragger can be) to handle on ground, but they are less smooth once in the air. On the other hand German aircraft are sluggish and a pain in the ass to taxi, but they are a dream of smooth and well behaved once airborne". THAT is exactly what happens to Dora and P-51 , Dora have a smooth flying while Mustang is a trim nightmare but Mustang taxies "easily" and Dora is a pain in the ass. Mate it is AWESOME a simulator simulates even that and so clearly you can feel it in front of a screen... Keep all that points in mind and you'll be fine, believe me :smilewink:.

 

S!

Edited September 9, 2014 by Ala13_ManOWar

[airdoc]

Guys take it easy.

 

My intentions are good. Even it is critics but with good intentions. I'm aware this is Beta but if we don't discus about it how could be better polished as final product?

 

I got Dora and Mustang in same time and start first with Dora and have more hours spend on Dora than on Mustang. So Mustang is piece of cake from first time.

 

I'm not such a noob to not know how to take off but handling Dora is impossible mission for me. Rudder just not react the same every time. I have about 5 take off with P 51 and all was smooth and easy with perfect straight direction. On other side with Dora I have at least 50 take off and I'm not sure if I put her in the air 5 times and every time with heavy struggle. Just before I rich half of the airstrip I end it out of it no matter left or right. Lot of people have exactly same problems, also I did'n see single video with smooth take off with Dora on Youtube.

 

About breaks and that what I give aspect and send video to prove the point what I hear real Luftwafe pilots who fly this plane in real life so that is full realistic feature no descust about it at all. I just mention this and that is on DEVs are they try to implement it or not but if this is possible and even demands in real life than should be implemented in flight model if as you say this is realistic sim.

 

No criticism intended mate.

There is a takeoff video posted by Macademic, with control input visualised.

You can check it out for some tips on the Dora. See post #169 on this thread.

 

cheers

Edited September 9, 2014 by airdoc
post #

[Lizzard]

Right now lot of us have same problems but unfortunately after 23 pages of discussion didn't yet find proper advice which will help me realize what I did wrong to correct it.

 

It is harder to land than other planes but if I failed it I know exactly what I did wrong and it was my mistake and next time avoid the mistake and all is good.

 

But here with taking off I don't know. I try every advice here and follow procedure from official video. try with max 2500 RPM same as 3000 or max similar results really don't know what I'm doing wrong. Bitch just doing on her own.

Sometime like there is no input from rudder than at all than input is to hard. Sometime you put correction on rudder but plane continuing goes where it was like speedway motorcycle.

 

How I could practice when there is no logical explanation what I did wrong to correct.

 

Of course we are talking about sim level without any AI help in Game mod she taking off by her self.

 

how about posting a track from your take off..so we can take a close look what goes wrong. Take off with the Dora is tricky for sure it needs practise..but hey you can manage it, and it does not take that long.

 

Basic

 

- line up on the runway

- slowly increase the Throttle and let her roll (correct gently with the rudders

- if you roll controlled at the right direction lock the tail wheel (Stick full back)..further increase the Throttle

- at round about 170 kph let her come (release the stick gently)

- allways correct slightly (!!!) with the rudders

- DO NOT pull her up to early!! This will end up in a stall and crash.. just increase speed (full throttle) and let her fly herself!

 

reads simple but needs practise

Edited September 9, 2014 by Lizzard

[159th_Viper]

1 - Line up

 

2 - Slam the throttle all the way forward

 

3 - Stick neutral

 

4 - Keep her straight by dancing the rudders

 

5 - Away you go

[Yo-Yo]

I only want to add: please do not shy to use the TO assistant. Set it to 100% and takeoff without touching the rudder pedals or applying only minor, gentle, slow input to keep the line.

Play the track watching your assistant's rudder input - magnitude and timing regarding to your plane yaw movement.

Then reduce TO assistance, for example, to 75% or less till the plane begins to yaw noticable as you perform nothing. Then try to apply short rudder input keeping the plane straight.

 

Perform your input AGAINST YAW VELOCITY RATHER THAN AGAINST THE SIDESLIP ANGLE!

Anticipate break outs and apply short opposite rudder input. Begin to release it as the yaw velocity begins to diminish.

 

As you have your TO assistant authority reduced you can control the plane only with minor inputs.

 

If you feel confident at TO - reduce assistant authority further. And train again.

 

P.S.

 

And, by the way, once this skill gained in LOMAC Su-25 saved me in the real life as my car began to skid.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Yo-Yo

[Lizzard]

1 - Line up

 

2 - Slam the throttle all the way forward

 

3 - Stick neutral

 

4 - Keep her straight by dancing the rudders

 

5 - Away you go

 

 

6 - end up in a spectacular Fireball which impresses the spectators:lol:

 

o.k. you can do it that way..it works but you really have to know how to "dance" the rudders

Edited September 9, 2014 by Lizzard

[159th_Viper]

 

o.k. you can do it that way..it works but you really have to know how to "dance" the rudders

 

 

Aye that's why practice makes perfect :)

 

Do as Yo-Yo says and use the assists the SIM provides - no shame in that. Carry on doing it until you get the 'feeling' and you'll soon be wondering what all the fuss was about.

[wormeaten]

OK thanks guys.

 

More or less I already follow most of the stuff you mention here.

Yes I watch all available videos on Youtube even study those with MP on DOW server where I could see take off.

 

How I can turn on that control input HUD?

 

Any suggestion about axis tune on Dora? I got hot ass G940 BTW.

 

Right now I got Pitch: curve 25 and Y sensitivity on 54 because of FF

Roll: just 25 curve

and Rudder just Curve on 30

Rudder assist is Off and TO assist is 0

 

It was 100 before when I started but someone told me that is my problem and should be 0.

Didn't mention any difference. Maybe because I set up default Simulation level not Game or Custom.

 

I was even try to "dance" just watching turn indicator and giving input of rudder to keep it in center much as possible but instead of waltz it was break dance

 

I will try that you are advice me tomorrow and keep you informed with progress.

[Lizzard]

yap just practise a bit..the hardest part is adding the right amount of rudder..mostly you will tend to use too much or react too late..so just treat her like a lady..gently and with feeling:)

 

I added a track...just a quick take off and landing...not really perfect but u will get the idea (Controls Indicator is "rCtrl" and "Enter")

Dora.trk

Edited September 9, 2014 by Lizzard

[Yo-Yo]

OK thanks guys.

 

More or less I already follow most of the stuff you mention here.

Yes I watch all available videos on Youtube even study those with MP on DOW server where I could see take off.

 

How I can turn on that control input HUD?

 

Any suggestion about axis tune on Dora? I got hot ass G940 BTW.

 

Right now I got Pitch: curve 25 and Y sensitivity on 54 because of FF

Roll: just 25 curve

and Rudder just Curve on 30

Rudder assist is Off and TO assist is 0

 

It was 100 before when I started but someone told me that is my problem and should be 0.

Didn't mention any difference. Maybe because I set up default Simulation level not Game or Custom.

 

I was even try to "dance" just watching turn indicator and giving input of rudder to keep it in center much as possible but instead of waltz it was break dance

 

I will try that you are advice me tomorrow and keep you informed with progress.

 

Do not look at the ball, just set clouds... and avoid any little tend to break from the initial point at the cloud.Actually, you must train a feeling of acceleration from your visual perception, i.e. apply rudder according to the energy your plane goes away from the line. Remember that you can balance a long stick vertically on your finger while it's near the vertical, not furher. :)

 

And say for yourself: "I am driving the plane and not vica versa!"

Edited September 9, 2014 by Yo-Yo

[airdoc]

 

How I can turn on that control input HUD?

 

 

Press RCtrl+Enter.

 

EDIT : sniped by Lizzard

 

As Yo-Yo said, never look at the ball while rolling. As a matter of fact, I don't look at any other instrument, only quick glances at the speedometer. If I look for more than a second, it usually ends in a disaster.

 

What helped me the most, was to set my rudder curve so that the quick pushes i used were not too much (current curve is 19 ) . I usually start the take-off roll zoomed out, so that i can see both sides of the runway with my peripheral vision, and focus straight ahead.

 

Macademic's video shows the "rudder pedal dance" on take-off beautifully.

Edited September 9, 2014 by airdoc

[Yo-Yo]

The first takeoff in Dora of a Russian pilot. He did not search easy ways: x-wind 8 m/s and 2.5 m/s turbulence....

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2170395&postcount=449

 

 

Only after two landings he discovered that one button for a toe brake does not work properly...

[wormeaten]

My overall conclusion on take-off:

 

Struggled hard to get this aircraft off the ground, maybe 2 succesfull take-offs in the first 100 try's. Even then they weren't pretty and i considered them pure luck. Rudder settings where 27% curved (all my other aircraft have curses so i did do this with this one to withouyt trying).

Then i changed from smooth throttle increase to direct full throttle and that made a world of difference but it still wasn't good enough. The succesrate went up from 2% to around 70%. It was still kinda hard to take off in straight line.

Then i removed all the curve from the rudder input and since then succes went up to 100% and taking off in straight line is easy.

 

Maybe I could prow it. I do the same with throttle and reduce curve on rudder to 19 and number of successful take offs increase but it is still under 50% but it is huge improvement.

 

:pilotfly:

 

Still discovering some answers in non logical behavior of the plane. I don't know why plane goes straight from beginning right and not reacting on rudder or start to react too late. Tail wheel is centered and locked.

[Lizzard]

I don't know why plane goes straight from beginning right and not reacting on rudder or start to react too late. Tail wheel is centered and locked.

 

DO NOT lock the Tailwheel to early, because if you start rolling the airflow is weak and the rudders will not respond much...the rudders then have a hard time fighting the locked wheel..

[wormeaten]

DO NOT lock the Tailwheel to early, because if you start rolling the airflow is weak and the rudders will not respond much...the rudders then have a hard time fighting the locked wheel..

 

Sound logical. To be honest I got to the same idea so I start rolling and than lock the wheel.

 

Also I reduce rudder curve to 12 didn't put it to 0 and actually find out it's depend on how you are use to rudder sensitivity. Curve is set most for smooth and small movement for aiming.

 

I increase my success take off's to about 70%. Sometime still losing control and end up out of the strip too soon but some of take off's are straight and like pro.

 

What could be problem when plane in middle of taking off or before lift start turn to one side but plane continuing go forward so start to slip sideway?

[Lizzard]

 

What could be problem when plane in middle of taking off or before lift start turn to one side but plane continuing go forward so start to slip sideway?

 

the best way would be you post a track..bcause it is hard to imagine what is worng. But the fact that you manage 70% of take offs tells that you understand the general idea. I guess it is mostly a too extreme use of the rudder..keep in mind..if you are slow the rudder is weak..the faster you go the stronger becomes the rudder (especially after releasing the tail wheel!)..so if you do a take off your rudder inputs have to be more and more gently:)

[tflash]

yap just practise a bit..the hardest part is adding the right amount of rudder..mostly you will tend to use too much or react too late..so just treat her like a lady..gently and with feeling:)

 

I added a track...just a quick take off and landing...not really perfect but u will get the idea (Controls Indicator is "rCtrl" and "Enter")

 

Nice, thanks for that!

[wernst]

best take-off practice? I'm applying rudder AND (!) aileron control

 

theory: At high power and low airspeed (as in take-off runs) the prop wash effect

causing the plane to yaw to the left (prop rotating clockwise).

The pilot compensates this force through (right) rudder control.

 

Fine, that’s what we are all doing, more or less, initially. But there is another physical force in take-off runs.

 

The effect of propeller torque has an influence on the roll axis.

This force isn't countered by moving the rudder but by lowering the appropriate wing via aileron control.

For planes with props which rotating clockwise the pilot has to apply some right aileron (right wing a little down)

in order to counter the aircraft's left roll tendency.

 

practice: At about 170 - 180 km/h I do not center the stick (carefully) to the precise middle position but a little to the middle-right position.

With the right wing a little down the Dora stays more safely on the runway as to apply too much right rudder only.

Even with crosswinds, regardless from right or left, I apply a well dosed amount of right rudder and right aileron.

 

The learning curve from multiple exercises will give you a feeling for the optimum amount of combined right rudder and right aileron control.

 

BTW: I apply max power (full throttle to START) straightway from the beginning of the takeoff run

(not any “2500 rpm” or “gradually increase” technique)

 

happy take off - safe landing

Edited September 13, 2014 by wernst

[tflash]

Airborne, at last! After what, 30 crashes or so? I read your post wernst and that did it for me: full throttle from the start, and right rudder/right aileron. Now I feel the plane and get airborne safely time and time again.

 

Many thanks!