Mig-15? You're kidding me...

[Buzzles]

Just managed to take down my first Mig 15 with guns. Difficult fight, ending up doing lots of slashing attacks, and eventually managed to nail him as he tried to pull up and loop over when I dropped in behind.

 

Interestingly according to the debrief report, only 7 rounds actually hit. 4 in one burst, 3 in the finishing burst.

 

Either the reporting is wrong, or it was a lucky hit as the Mig burst into flames.

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

I should be perfectly clear that I'm not hating on ED or belsimtek or (insert whoever you wish here)

I just find it infuriating to put many holes in an AI and have them fly perfectly fine still when i lose that 5-10pct of my ability from a single bullet hole. It has nothing to do with whats going on under the hood... not asking for anything major its just not very realistic to have AI perform at the same level despite battle damage and theres a fine line between flying perfect and just cheating -- I would believe they flew perfect if i had not killed the mig-15 more with the water then I have with my gun... I think the AI as a whole has a long way to go towards making DCS better then it currently is, I will also bet the farm on the fact that EDGE will do nothing directly toward making better AI... maybe it will free up some of the slice for better AI but after being told we would have robot servants by 2020 and we still have crappy AI in video games that cant even come close to fooling someone into believing its a human any AI related promises just don't do it for me. actions louder then words.

 

now for necessary disclaimer (I know its beta and unfinished)

 

and I know I'm not ace, i move mud and always burn up in a fireball in a dogfight!

Edited July 30, 2014 by =LFC=Chameleon_Silk

[NineLine]

That just comes back to being a WIP... we will just have to watch as it gets patched.

 

I should be perfectly clear that I'm not hating on ED or bellsimtek or (insert whoever you wish here)

I just find it infuriating to put many holes in an AI and have them fly perfectly fine still when i lose that 5-10pct of my ability from a single bullet hole. It has nothing to do with whats going on under the hood... not asking for anything major its just not very realistic to have AI perform at the same level despite battle damage and theres a fine line between flying perfect and just cheating -- I would believe they flew perfect if i had not killed the mig-15 more with the water then I have with my gun... I think the AI as a whole has a long way to go towards making DCS better then it currently is, I will also bet the farm on the fact that EDGE will do nothing directly toward making better AI... maybe it will free up some of the slice for better AI but after being told we would have robot servants by 2020 and we still have crappy AI in video games that cant even come close to fooling someone into believing its a human any AI related promises just don't do it for me. actions louder then words.

 

now for necessary disclaimer (I know its beta and unfinished)

[NineLine]

Just managed to take down my first Mig 15 with guns. Difficult fight, ending up doing lots of slashing attacks, and eventually managed to nail him as he tried to pull up and loop over when I dropped in behind.

 

Interestingly according to the debrief report, only 7 rounds actually hit. 4 in one burst, 3 in the finishing burst.

 

Either the reporting is wrong, or it was a lucky hit as the Mig burst into flames.

 

Well 1 well placed bullet with take down a plane. ;)

[Maico249th]

This is true, I got in a very short burst from about ohhhh, two meters and he burst into flames. I have only had this happen once. It was an "accident" but I will take it :). They are NOT unbeatable.

[Robo.]

And yet again, this has absolutely nothing to do with either the Sabre or the MiG. This has to do with the fact that the AI has always been nothing short of an unparalleled wizard at energy control, makes no mistakes, and the fact that the visual range for the MK1 eyeball in DCS is that of a new born kitten.

 

I could do the same thing with the F-15 against a MiG-29, and it would be absolutely the same. The only difference would be that A, the -29 is a lot bigger, so I'd spot it easier, and B, an F-15C vs a MiG-29 are pretty much just going to do BVR. That's why DCS has been getting away with an immaculate AI and planes nearly invisible at short to medium ranges.

DCS won't be getting away with those things when the WW2 planes start coming out. At that stage a lot of people will most likely give up on DCS, or rather on the WW2 aspect of it.

 

Although I agree on the issues with finding targets and keeping your eyes on them, good old dogfights are still very possible and very enjoyable in DCS. A bit of adjustment from 'other sims' is needed, but once you know what you're looking for, and focus on not losing the E/A against the ground (or sky) a bit more, it's not that bad. IMHO of course...

 

As for AI, yes, they are tough, but there are human players out there who will keep their E even better and who shoot as good as the AI. Fair enough I'd say. I agree there is always some room for improvement, but it's a challenge that will make you a better pilot. :thumbup: I see your point though.

 

To stay OT, my first attempt vs the MiG-15:

[Skall]

Got my first A2A kill in the F-86 yesterday. It was Sabre vs. Sabre. After several hopeless attempts at trying to keep up with the AI's ability to go into and maintain a stable climb at 17 knots, I dove to the ground and stopped going vertical with it. The AI soon followed and we had several head-on passes. In one pass I got desperate and decided to lead and go guns. My shots all missed but had a mid-air wing-to-wing collision. For some reason, his wing fell off and he crashed and burned. My wing was perfectly fine and I was able to land at the nearest airfield with nary a scratch.

[MVSokie]

I have to say I do have a hard time seeing the enemy myself so I took a step further and changed the labels.lua file and left labels on, but I get no info on what it is but a very small red dot enemy or friendly makes no difference. and actually I go back and forth between having it on and having it off as a way of trying to train myself to know what too look for. its helped me alot so far. trust me the dot is small.

[Ewertsp]

in 8 sorties, 2 kills and 6 bingo fuel.

I guess the ai over here is kinda weird lol. I set the mig with a high level ai, 100% fuel and sabre with only 50%. Initial speed 400knots to both, same alt, h2h. From my experience, the f86 can outurn mig with ease but if you dont pay attention, sometimes it can match your turn for a very short time in a downward turn before a stall. Scissors are very good way to get an overshoot. Once the mig gives up on the scissors it accelerates and goes up. I've never could climb with the ai the same way some other guys did in the videos. Well, after my desperate attempt to get a shot just before hanging in the air I find myself in defensive again and then it just restarts, repeating over n over until I run out of fuel. Sad but fun! :)

[Rabbit_]

I know what you mean Rabbit, I love flying the UH-1H and My father used to fly the real thing in Vietnam, so im constantly bugging him for advice and he laughs at me and tells me I look like a drunken monkey flying it.

 

You are lucky then. It has to be cool to learn from Your father how to fly it. Is Your father surprised, how the Huey is modeled in this game or he thinks it's far far from the real thing?

[AussieGhost789]

I had a MiG immelmen and not quite level off (still maintaining nose above the horizon), then at <120 knots TAS at around 10,000 feet, quickly roll over and go into a climb. You can see the MiG twitch a little and I assume thats where it really should be stalling.

[Foul Ole Ron]

You probably should get Tacview to see what's really going on with the Mig-15. I watched back a 35 min dogfight I had with a Mig-15 yesterday as well as a few other dogfights and I couldn't see anything majorly off with the climbs the Mig was doing. Tacview shows the telemetry of the Mig and I haven't come across any instance where the Mig-15 climbed up when it shouldn't have been able to due to lack of airspeed.

[Exorcet]

You can get pretty much the same info from F2 view. The AI can keep climbing as long as the airspeed is not zero. What's even worse is that they can control the aircraft direction while doing so, so if they actually do end up falling, they'll fall in the best direction possible instead of falling into a bad situation (like having their tail point at you). I was trying to abuse the MiG's vertical climbs by forcing it go vertical and then fall in on its tail, but it would just come out pointing the nose at me.

 

EDIT

 

At the other end of the spectrum, I also tried to get the MiG to overspeed. It simply "snapped" out of the dive it was in while bleeding speed, without the airbrakes deployed (this only happened once and I didn't try again so I might be remembering off slightly).

Edited July 31, 2014 by Exorcet

[MVSokie]

You are lucky then. It has to be cool to learn from Your father how to fly it. Is Your father surprised, how the Huey is modeled in this game or he thinks it's far far from the real thing?

 

he is very impressed but doesnt remember the compass being where it is. he flew OH-58 too and a very long list of aircraft since, even the OV-10 bronco. very experienced pilot.

[Veles]

I probably misled you all. this is not my fight, artist -=KAG=Zakhar.

I just put it on video.

[Rabbit_]

he is very impressed but doesnt remember the compass being where it is. he flew OH-58 too and a very long list of aircraft since, even the OV-10 bronco. very experienced pilot.

 

Thanks for reply. It's great then. Good to know we have something really close to real thing. Wow...OH-58? That's the module I'm waiting for.

[B25Mitch]

I couldn't really believe this when it happened, but here goes:

 

Mig-15 takes a single shot from 900m away. I'm pulling 6G. The round takes almost 2 seconds to reach me.

 

 

 

It hits me, I burst into flames.

 

Honestly, I don't even think the Mig-15 is that good at flying. He's just got laser-guided cannon shells.

 

 

Track attached, it happens after 11 minutes.

Sniped.trk

[SgtPappy]

I couldn't really believe this when it happened, but here goes:

 

Mig-15 takes a single shot from 900m away. I'm pulling 6G. The round takes almost 2 seconds to reach me.

 

 

 

It hits me, I burst into flames.

 

Honestly, I don't even think the Mig-15 is that good at flying. He's just got laser-guided cannon shells.

 

 

Track attached, it happens after 11 minutes.

 

Ohhhh trust me, he's got epic flying abilities. It can keep climbing, rolling and pulling 1.5-2 G's at less than 160 mph even after it's turned hard. It's all in the track. All I've been doing is trying to fight the MiG and recording everything it does. But it's a WIP, so don't worry. Although I know it's frustrating.

MiG UFO 2.trk

[zaelu]

I can't play yet with F-86 (my HOTAS and Pedals are in the box for a while) but I made missions with AI and I watched them fighting.

 

The AI needs a bit of love too as they don't fight the fight as it should be properly, they engage their airbrakes too often and slow down dangerously... even at the merge. They don't "communicate" well, they don't stick to they target... etc. It's like they don't care for their lives too much :D.

 

The Mig-15 AI seems a bit... better :P as they almost always manage to kill superior numbers of Sabres... especially on the deck. Maybe this aspect could be checked in further updates. I really like Mig-15 but it looks a bit too easy for them to gun down Sabres.

 

I set a mission of 2 Mig-15 Excellent (they fly from Kutaisi) and 4 Sabres Excellent (they fly from Batumi) and they meet at second waypoint set at 6500m full speed (+900kmph) at Poti, each flight set to intercept each other by advanced waypoint actions and the Migs fight a bit better, although they go to deck quite quickly and slow down unacceptable for safety. Curiously, when "visible" check box is checked only 2 out of 4 Sabres get in the fight. What is that checkbox do exactly?

 

AI should have some "inner reward" system like humans do. Should have some "life will" made of some characteristics and "laws". Like:

 

"speed, speed, speed is life"

"stick to your target"

"speed, speed"

"stay inside plane envelope and each time it's passing it some "adrenaline" depletion should kick in to make it return to it" -like if it slows down to extend and ask for cover.

 

The flight should have a life of it's own on top of individual plane AI and similar.

 

I really would like and buy a "DCS AI" module. Seriously. I am aware that development of such AI would take lot of time and resources.

 

Oh... and AI should fly also AFM :D.

[outlawal2]

OK I am not much of a Sabre / Mig fan so I have not done any research, but was one plane superior to the other? (And I don't want a bunch of hyped propaganda as both sides spew that out all the time.. ) These planes are old enough that someone should have real-life definitive data on whether one plane was superior to the other..

 

Anyone? (I ask because maybe that is why the AI Migs are getting more kills than the Sabre AI)

[NineLine]

Go on YouTube and search MiG Alley and watch a few vids... :) I can only give propaganda... basically whichever one I am flying, the other one is superior :)

[txmtb]

basically whichever one I am flying, the other one is superior :)

 

I definitely understand that, feel the same way with a lot of aircraft! :pilotfly:

[shagrat]

In terms of build and flying characteristics they are pretty similar... Mig-15 has better ceiling and faster acceleration and it had a better turn radius at high altitudes. So in the vertical it has an advantage and in horizontal engagement at altitude above 20k ft...

At lower altitudes the Sabre could usually outturn the Mig and was "superior" unless the Mig broke away and climbed to altitude.

This is information from the Haynes Owner's Workshop manual for the F-86 Sabre from 2011, which I just bought at Duxford during Flying Legends airshow. I think it is not based on propaganda, but a lot of research and experience. Also the Sabres had a better Gunsight. On the Mig side were clearly the larger/more effectiv guns/cannon!

I guess in the end it is the usual pilot skill which should make the difference... from what was said before, the Mig seems to currently outturn the Sabre at low altitude. That may be has to be tweaked... honestly I can't tell, cause I so desperately suck at dogfighting in most planes, that I wouldn't count me as a match to any AI at the moment.

[JMasterFlash]

It is reassuring also having some hard data showing that the 15 needs some adjustment. And no offence to the devs, the F-86F is a superb module and I would rather they release it in this state (because DCS turns me into a small child on Christmas) and continue working out bugs and modifying it with the public involved. Also, I would rather they focused on the 86 than the 15 anyway.

 

I appreciate your guys input, and seeing some successes makes me want to try all the harder to try different techniques and improve my skill.

[SgtPappy]

OK I am not much of a Sabre / Mig fan so I have not done any research, but was one plane superior to the other? (And I don't want a bunch of hyped propaganda as both sides spew that out all the time.. ) These planes are old enough that someone should have real-life definitive data on whether one plane was superior to the other..

 

Anyone? (I ask because maybe that is why the AI Migs are getting more kills than the Sabre AI)

 

The only thing I don't really have are climb rate or time to climb graphs for the MiG. Sadly the only graphs I have for the Sabre for time to climb are for a slightly heavier F-86F-40 with drop tanks which obviously climbs badly. Moreover, it is this data which is often quoted as the Sabre's time to climb.

 

At any rate, most of what I see on the internet quote the MiG's max speed at sea level as 668 mph with one book source claiming 693 mph. The hard-wing Sabre is almost always quoted as having a 695 mph top speed. Climb at combat weight for the MiG is often quoted as 10,080 - 10,100 fpm at SL with the Sabre's varying from 9,300 - 9,600 fpm.

 

The best piece of pictoral evidence is this energy diagram. I have been looking high and low for a source but sadly, I cannot find one. I have a blurry jpg of the diagram and a clearer (but non-English) version (which I cannot for the life of me figure out how to attach because wikipedia makes direct-linked pictures tiny as crap) as well.

 

Original:

 

Clearer, Japanese version:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_Maneuverability_diagram.jpg

 

You can see for yourself where the planes each have their strengths. I assume this diagram is at or near SL with combat weighted (~50% fuel) airplanes since the turn rates are so high.