Good comment on mouse DPI marketing

[Bucic]

I've been reading on DPI significance today and stumbled on a good comment on the subject, being an analysis of Razer CEO's statement.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2010/03/razer-fires-back-why-dpi-in-a-gaming-mouse-does-matter/?comments=1&post=877896#comment-877896

 

 

D_HomerickArs Centurion

4 years ago

I'm not a serious gamer. I don't really give a toss about the "DPI Debate" either way. BUT -- this guy's response just oozes marketing. Here, let me parse a few lines for you:

 

I think gamers care about DPI and I do think the term makes sense for today’s mice.

 

I'm not saying that high DPI is actually useful. I'm saying that gamers care about it.

 

We pioneered this industry back in 1999 when we came out with the first gaming mouse offering 2000 DPI—at that time gamers were told by our competitors that 800 DPI was enough.

 

We created this niche, and we did the marketing to establish a high DPI as a selling point. We've made sure that gamers care about it.

 

Now people are saying 1600 DPI is enough, just like there were “purists” who believed in silent movies, black and white TV or perhaps film rather than digital cameras. By the way, I could discuss CD vs. vinyl for days

 

Here, let me toss some analogies your way. Everyone loves analogies!! P.S. If you like high DPI mice, you like modern, digital products! You're not one of those wacked-out analogists who think that film or vinyl has some magic faerie dust on it or something. We don't have faerie dust in our mice, that's for sure.

 

We’re not saying ultra-high DPI settings are for everyone. But all gamers have a unique play style—almost like a signature in the way they play. One size does not fit all which is why we have a variety of different models to suit different grip styles and we also have a mouse configuration guide

 

Divide and conquer, baby! Of course this little mouse is worth 3x as much as a "regular" mouse -- it's tailored for you. Disclaimer: Said features not guaranteed to have any real value.

 

Nowhere does he even try to defend the idea that a ultra-high DPI mouse is better than a high-DPI mouse.

 

 

_____________________

 

And here's a marketing blah blah on how marketing guys move away from offering 'a perfect product' towards offering 'a product for each niche'.

 

An extensive mouse optimization guide.

http://www.overclock.net/t/173255/cs-s-mouse-optimization-guide

Edited July 27, 2014 by Bucic

[Insanatrix]

I have an 8200dpi Roccat Kone Pure and I rarely use it over 2000 dpi not because a higher dpi isn't better but because it's a pain in the ass to setup and get used to. I have used it at 8200 dpi and the inherent problem with using a dpi that high is that you cannot get your in game or windows sensitivities low enough to properly use it and in the case of the windows sensitivity, the difference between no acceleration and the first bar of acceleration is huge.

 

I've set windows to 1:1 mouse input and gone in game and tweaked it and it's much more accurate, especially on bigger screens which I've tested with 3840x2160 and 2560x1440. There's less pixel skipping with the flip side being that you have to get used to it. It's just a pain in the ass to setup and get used to and you run into issue's where you can't set the sensitivity low enough in some games and you can't dial the sensitivity in Windows either.

 

 

I find Razer products to be effing terrible. Everything Razer I've owned has broken within the first couple of months and when I walked into Best Buy to pick up this mouse because they had an insane sale on it the guy trying to sell me a bunch of crap said all his Razer products broke on him as well.

[Bucic]

If you 'can't set in-game mouse sensitivity low enough' than your DPI setting is too high. See the mouse guide I've linked. It's the whole point of the thread, man :)

 

I've got a Razer Abyssus. It has switches on the bottom:

A: 125/1000 Hz polling rate

B: 450/1800/3500 dpi

I always use 450 dpi.

 

It works fine. Third year already and doesn't seem to be ageing at all! Switches are not as noisy as in most gamer mices. In fact they're quieter than in many office mices I've tried.

 

*Wheel started squeeking within 6 months. Had to grease it.

* The backlit blue eyrburning logo is ridiculous. Had to disconnect the power cable for the LED.

 

The only real problem I've had with the mouse is it goes haywire on cloth mouse pads. Nowhere Razer states the mouse is not intended for cloth pads! You have to use a plastic, rough surface pad. Like the $2 pads with cars and $it on them. I bought a Verbatim Rapier pad. It's big and cheap but is not flat and will never be no matter what you do. Unless you have means do do a high temp treatment on it that is.

 

My next mouse will not be Razer because of the bull with their bloatware Synapse software/driver. They don't even provide a standalone driver! Roccat on the other hand has an actual linux support. A good selling point for me personally.

 

Or I could go for another manufacturer, non-gaming mouse. Definitely not Logitech. I've had my share ofexperiences with their overpriced c#$p.

[trooph]

Hi Bucic. For most of my time i used a4tech laser gaming mouses, they were quite good and not that expensive. I bought mine for around 99 PLN, now im using Maurus X optical mouse with dpi up to 3600, never used lower than 1000 and never higher than 1600. Its great mouse but it takes some time to get used to its odd ergonomic build.

Overally its not that easy to find a decent mouse for good money.

 

Pozdrawiam

T.

[Bucic]

Overally its not that easy to find a decent mouse for good money.

I agree. What I'm after though is to shed some light on the marketing gimmick ('more dpi is better (precision)'). To put things into perspective no one using a 1080p resolution will benefit from dpi higher than ~1500.

[trooph]

I agree. What I'm after though is to shed some light on the marketing gimmick ('more dpi is better (precision)'). To put things into perspective no one using a 1080p resolution will benefit from dpi higher than ~1500.

 

Thats completly true.

I know several good FPS players and none of them is using mouse with DPI higher than 1600. Even though some of them are using super ultra DPI gaming mices

[Bucic]

Thats completely true.

I know several good FPS players and none of them is using mouse with DPI higher than 1600. Even though some of them are using super ultra DPI gaming mices

People just think that dpi=precision while it's more like dpi=speed (i.e. mouse sensitivity). An analogy. I don't know, gear ratios in a car maybe. It's not a direct analogy but it's pretty much along the lines of: a car is advertised as featuring a gear ratio of say 5 which allows it to go 450 km/h. You'll never want to go that fast and by buying the car anyway the lowest you can go for parking is 60 km/h (~35mph) :D So what do you do? You buy 100 mm wheels (4 inches) which is an equivalent of setting in-game or in-Windows mouse sensitivity to lower that 1 (1:1) because your mouse cursor moves too fast due to high dpi.

 

So following the analogy of buing a high gear ratio car when you do have access to a highway where you can go this fast, the monitor resolution is the highway. I hope... this... helps... :juggle:

 

I think I forgot to post the link to the mouse tweaking guide I was referring to earlier. Post #1 edited.

[Archer7]

Get a SteelSeries Sensei.

 

Costs nothing and has more features than any other mouse ever will.

 

About 1-5600 dpi in 1-dpi increments, acceleration, smoothing, whatever you want.

The only negative thing is that the side buttons are very easy to click by mistake. It seems they change the side buttons in the wireless edition, but it’s expensive as hell.

 

I'm currently using 1200 dpi. I suppose I'll go 2400 dpi when I upgrade to 4K.

[Abburo]

I curently have a MadCatz 7 with 6000+ DPI. I used to have a Logitech G700 which has 5000dpi.

 

The difference beteween them is tremendous. Despite the fact that Logitech reliability in general is absolutely lousy in last 5 years and the G700 middle button just became broken after one year, I can say that the MadCatz precision is by far more better then Logitech's one. So, as was stated above, DPI is not same think with precision but with speed.

 

More over, if you are searching for precision you have just to go away from wireless mouse. They simply are limited because of radio trasmition and even 1000 pols/sec seems to not be enough. No talking here about changing batteries daily or even more often if it used intesively.

 

My current wired MadCatz 7 is by far best mouse I ever used and I am using it mainly somewhere between 2-3000dpi. Also I am using intesively the hardware button for cycling DPI and sometimes using even the max DPI, for example in DCS or ARMA to speed up looking arround.

[Bucic]

I

More over, if you are searching for precision you have just to go away from wireless mouse. They simply are limited because of radio trasmition and even 1000 pols/sec seems to not be enough. No talking here about changing batteries daily or even more often if it used intesively.

Even though I haven't used a wireless mouse I find it hard to believe.

[Abburo]

In my case ARMA3 was the benchmark for the precision. With G700 I was started to became frustrated because of my missing fire and I was unable to understand the real reason, thinking that this must be the Arma engine mechanics. Luckily me, that button became broken and I change the mouse with a MadCatz... and everything else suddenly changed substantially.

 

Regarding power consumption G700 was/is a monster and changing batteries so often is also not very welcomed. I used to have a set of 8 rechargable 2500mAh Sanyo ENELOOP near me.. just in case :D. Time of set recharging... weekly.

 

The 1000 poll rate is more likely a marketing story. The radio signal is quite low so packet corrections are happenning quite often, by comparision with an wired mouse which does not suffer the same issues.

 

Also what I would like to add that any low cost but well built wireless mouses are doing their job perfectly. The problem is with those so claimed gaming high DPI wireless... as I said... is just marketing arround them. Found this on the hard way!

[Bucic]

@Abburo

Any recommendations on an inexpensive wireless gaming mouse then? $50-$80.

[karambiatos]

@Abburo

Any recommendations on an inexpensive wireless gaming mouse then? $50-$80.

i wanted to get the g700 but then i read alot of terrible reviews on newegg and amazon so decided against it, even though the previous one i had a g9x, was a great mouse.

 

i bought one of gigabytes something or others (mx8000, not wireless), they are between $50-$80, the clicks are not exactly to my taste (the click isnt very crisp), but at the price point its pretty good the and the software works pretty well, if you like macros and what not, also their wireless mouse can be used by lefties as well, so that generally implies a bit worse ergonomics.

 

here it is, it can be used with a wire as well, which is always a nice addition.

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3777#ov

 

p.s. what ever you decide dont get madcatz

[Bucic]

i wanted to get the g700 but then i read alot of terrible reviews on newegg and amazon so decided against it, even though the previous one i had a g9x, was a great mouse.

 

i bought one of gigabytes something or others (mx8000, not wireless), they are between $50-$80, the clicks are not exactly to my taste (the click isnt very crisp), but at the price point its pretty good the and the software works pretty well, if you like macros and what not, also their wireless mouse can be used by lefties as well, so that generally implies a bit worse ergonomics.

 

here it is, it can be used with a wire as well, which is always a nice addition.

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3777#ov

OK, thanks. The way I see it I'll be using the Razer Abyssus until it dies completely. Good stuff. Extremely quiet microswitches are of high importance to me. Also I don't use macros.

Logitech is on my black list anyway*.

 

p.s. what ever you decide dont get madcatz

It would be against my rules:

1. Don't buy from companies who replace s'es with ghetto z's.

2. Don't buy from companies who replace c's with K's.

3. Don't buy from companies who try to blind you with LED's.

;)

I broke the 3rd rule for the Abyssus but only because I decided I'll rip the LED off :)

 

My experience with Logitech

*As mentioned before - overpriced mediocre hardware at best. Beware of their mouses using a on-PCB circular microswitch for middle/scroll wheel button. This F@$^ thing requires 1 kilogram of force to actuate! I've experienced it in the G500 but they probably use it across their series. Back to G500 though. It had a two scroll-wheel tilt position switches. Guess what. Whenever I tried to press the scroll whell I have to pay attention not to actuate the tilt switches by accident. The tilt switches were at least 4 times easier to actuate than the main scroll wheel switch. Marvelous :disgust:

[Abburo]

For 50-80$ it can be easily choose a wired MadCatz :D or a small wireless MS Bluetrack which is very precise but no macros.

 

G700 changed that hard to push middle button into something like this: http://forums.logitech.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/11531iCA1045C4A8059419/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

 

So the force necessary to press it is really negligeable... but... in time it remains pushed :D : :) (one year for me) I tried to change it by myself but there was needed some hot air soldiered system which I don't have. With my normal soldier iron I manage to partially destroy the PCB... whatever.. I don't bother anymore about it. One thing which I have enjoyed very much on it was the possibility to mechanically switch the wheel from normal moving into continuous momentum rolling... very nice for scrolling let's say , with same feeling as for swipe on tablets.

[Bucic]

For 50-80$ it can be easily choose a wired MadCatz :D or a small wireless MS Bluetrack which is very precise but no macros.

 

G700 changed that hard to push middle button into something like this: http://forums.logitech.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/11531iCA1045C4A8059419/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

 

So the force necessary to press it is really negligeable... but... in time it remains pushed :D : :) (one year for me) I tried to change it by myself but there was needed some hot air soldiered system which I don't have. With my normal soldier iron I manage to partially destroy the PCB... whatever.. I don't bother anymore about it. One thing which I have enjoyed very much on it was the possibility to mechanically switch the wheel from normal moving into continuous momentum rolling... very nice for scrolling let's say , with same feeling as for swipe on tablets.

So they've changed a powerlifter's switch to a 'the dream of a retail seller' switch. Marvelous. Bra-voh. :sly:

[karambiatos]

So they've changed a powerlifter's switch to a 'the dream of a retail seller' switch. Marvelous. Bra-voh. :sly:

 

at least you get a strong middle finger with the others, so you can flip logitech off.

 

OK, thanks. The way I see it I'll be using the Razer Abyssus until it dies completely. Good stuff. Extremely quiet microswitches are of high importance to me. Also I don't use macros.

 

 

hmm well i dont think youll get quiet microswitches with the gigabyte ones, at least on the m8000x the left and right clicks are somewhat loud, and the materials all feel cheaper, but that's what you get at that price point i guess ($50).

As for LEDs you can always make them shine black. :unsure:

 

also the reason agains madcatz is, they own saitek, and look how that turned out, and then theres the fact that i once bought a madcatz controller, it completely messed up my windows with the horrible drivers, i had bsods when removing it and a game was running, or just removing it sometimes, 10/10 product, and the fact that their mice look like scrapheaps, thatll fall apart at any moment.

[Abburo]

Well karambiatos, your opinion about Madcatz is quite subjective. Even I do agree they are looking a bit strange, regarding functionality is a completely other story and as I said earlier is the most precise and sturdier mouse I ever saw.

 

The story about BSOD or other things when deconecting USB devices, well... this is 99% motherboard fault, having USB ports unfiltered or not grounded properly or even the current not in proper parameters. And more than that, you can imagine some strange scenarios for HDD for example... shake a HDD while is copying something and you will see the results. Your mouse example is falling in same strange scenarios as well.

 

I am not a Madcatz evangelist or whatever :D... just my 2 cents about mices having high DPI and their reliability.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Abburo

[karambiatos]

Well karambiatos, your opinion about Madcatz is quite subjective. Even I do agree they are looking a bit strange, regarding functionality is a completely other story and as I said earlier is the most precise and sturdier mouse I ever saw.

 

The story about BSOD or other things when deconecting USB devices, well... this is 99% motherboard fault, having USB ports unfiltered or not grounded properly or even the current not in proper parameters. And more than that, you can imagine some strange scenarios for HDD for example... shake a HDD while is copying something and you will see the results. Your mouse example is falling in same strange scenarios as well.

 

I am not a Madcatz evangelist or whatever :D... just my 2 cents about mices having high DPI and their reliability.

it is subjective, everything is subjective in todays periferals world, i know people whose g9xs failed in months, while my lasted more than 5 years before the mouse wheel failed.

 

Then if its the motherboard, why pray tell did all the issues go away after completely removing everything that had to do with the controllers drivers, and not only that, the BSOD would only happen with that controller, and in any USB port and not with anything else.

 

In the end there is no reason to stick with a company that you had a problem with even one of their products, even if it is unreleated. Today everyone and their grandma is making mice and keyboards.

Edited July 31, 2014 by karambiatos

[Smith899]

The marketing of mouse DPI is a classic example of how technical specifications can sometimes overshadow the real user experience. While high DPI numbers might sound impressive on paper, it's crucial for consumers to understand that DPI alone doesn't determine a mouse's quality or suitability for their needs. In reality, factors like sensor accuracy, ergonomics, button layout, and software customization play equally, if not more, significant roles in delivering a satisfying user experience.

Manufacturers often engage in a 'numbers game,' touting incredibly high DPI values to attract buyers. However, for most users, a DPI setting of 10,000 or even 16,000 may be unnecessary overkill. What matters most is finding a DPI setting that feels comfortable and accurate for your specific tasks, whether it's gaming, graphic design, or everyday computer use. High DPI settings can even lead to jittery or less precise cursor movements if not adjusted correctly.

Ultimately, savvy consumers should look beyond the DPI marketing hype and focus on comprehensive reviews, user feedback, and hands-on testing to select a mouse that fits their unique preferences and needs. The right mouse is about much more than just DPI; it's about how all the features and design elements come together to enhance your overall computing or gaming experience.

[Dragon1-1]

Oddly enough, I'm using a G500, I've been since forever, and I love it. It just fits my hand so well. In fact, it's been through multiple cable and microswitch repairs, because it's just that comfortable. IMO, ergonomics are ultimately king in this case, I don't care much for numbers, although having a good selection of buttons helps, too (although every decent mouse will have extra buttons these days). 

[BitMaster]

The toll on the CPU and USB bus should not be forgotten when going with very high DPI and high poll rate.

Check the CPU, at least in the past that did matter. I run them max at 3000, despite it could go way higher.

[dburne]

Wow thread necro of the decade award!

[jinjiji]

And I have a question about whether it is realistic to configure the mouse and keyboard so that when installing such programs  https://www.kickidler.com/info/top-8-best-user-activity-monitoring-software.html on my computer, they give activity constantly? Because I work remotely from home and my employer has decided to install such software for remote monitoring of employees

Edited October 15, 2023 by jinjiji

[Dragon1-1]

Get a USB mouse jiggler. Mice rarely have them built in.