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A-10 and ECM


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Are the jammer pods effective at all in this? I feel like all they do is take a spot away from a GBU-12. I understand that ECM in DCS works nothing like in real life, but I feel like it has absolutely no function against radar sams. They seem to engage and fire the same whether I turn ECM on or not. Does anyone have any details on this? Thanks

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This depends heavily on the SAM, if it's a powerful radar and a powerful missile, it can burn through your ECM inside its maximum engagement range. When this happens, you're in trouble.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Are the jammer pods effective at all in this?

 

AFAIK, no.

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They do break lock from what I've seen, but usually if the AI fires on you then you're already through burn through range. Exception I've seen is with the F-15's ECM you can get closer to Sa-6's and 11's but if you get close enough for burn through then you're in the NEZ.

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Hm mixed responses. Ill have to try and set up a test for this somehow. Maybe set a Tor somewhere and fly an identical approach to it with ecm on/off and see what range it is before lock, missile fire, and shootdown.

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Hm mixed responses. Ill have to try and set up a test for this somehow. Maybe set a Tor somewhere and fly an identical approach to it with ecm on/off and see what range it is before lock, missile fire, and shootdown.

 

Ah..data instead of speculation! That will never fly! :thumbup:

 

Also interested in the results.. :book:

 

BeachAV8R

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One important thing to remember is that the ECM pods for the A-10C aren't as sophisticated as those on say the SR-71. IIRC, these pods only do "noise jamming", which does zero to keep SAM radars from locking on to you. What happens is that instead of seeing a nice radar signature that they can range acquire, they see a broad band, that is the "noise" caused by the pod. This means that they will still know where you are in elevation and azimuth, just not in range. Therefore they won't know when you're inside their range, and the targeting radar won't be able to tell the SAM when to arm its proximity fuze. The SAM operators will have to rely on other means of information to determine when you're within range (EW radars that can triangulate your position and what-not, their MK1 eyeballs, or God forbid, you being to close that they burn through your jamming. In the latter case, you're just dead) and they will be forced to fire a SAM that arms a long time before it gets near you, making it very prone to react to chaff, the ground, etc. and detonate before reaching you.

 

Now, I don't know how well simulated all of this is in DCS, but they are nonetheless very sound guidelines to follow. If you want to get some (virtual) experience of what it's like on the other end with ECM, pick up SAM simulator.

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I'm fairly certain that the SR-71 would be absolutely jealous of the ECM pod carried by the A-10C. I don't know where you came up with all that stuff, but you're very wrong.

 

DCS models these as noise jammers, which is incorrect.

 

One important thing to remember is that the ECM pods for the A-10C aren't as sophisticated as those on say the SR-71.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Riiight. One of the ECM machines carried by the SR-71 would break in to the "link" between a fired SA-2 and its targeting radar, and delay all transmissions, thereby rendering it unable to hit the plane even if it for some reason would have no other ECM turned on. Going to tell me the AN/ALQ-184 can do that?

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Riiight. One of the ECM machines carried by the SR-71 would break in to the "link" between a fired SA-2 and its targeting radar, and delay all transmissions, thereby rendering it unable to hit the plane even if it for some reason would have no other ECM turned on. Going to tell me the AN/ALQ-184 can do that?

 

Would you mind to share your source of information?

I know the Blackbird was constantly upgraded and therefore propably quite well equipped despite it's age, but rendering a SA-2 useless is not that big of a deal by today's means. And the AN/ALQ-184 is far away from being a Cellphone disrupting some signals a little

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Would you mind to share your source of information?

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3956529/Re:_9K33M2_OSA-AK_(SA-8B_Gecko#Post3956529

 

Way I see it, there's probably no one better qualified to talk about these things in the sim community who isn't doing those things for a living than Hpasp.

 

Obviously things like the AN/ALQ-184 pod isn't crap, but I sincerely doubt that it is capable of interrupting 27 SA-2s and redirecting them all at the same time.

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If the pod is anything like the DECM I worked on in the Navy it's not a jammer.

The EA-6B Prowler and now the EF-18G Growler are the active jammers (ECM) in the USN. They will pick up, identify, classify and activily jam a signal, whether it be Command and Control, Search RADAR, Fire Control RADAR and continue to Jam it. I was in from 77 to 97 and worked on AN/ALQ-126 and 126B Deception Repeaters............. they are tuned to come on at a certain range to the "FIRE CONTROL RADAR" and tuned to turn off (stop responding). Deception Repeaters have a Threat Library of know Fire Control Radars and will respond to them Pulse for Pulse as long as it's in the range envelop of its effectiveness and the lethal range of the threat missile. It's used only to get you into and out of the target area. The threat RADAR guidance pulse is received drowned in noise and then a false return pulse is sent that will give false range or azimuth information. This will confuse the guidance system to break lock on or hopefully break lock on.

 

Deception repeaters will not respond to search RADAR, your RHAW, RADAR Homing and Warning reciever will tell you there is a Search RADAR out there, along with all the Fire Control RADARs. That's where that Threat Library comes in handy. The Deception repeaters will respond to Air and Ground Threat RADARS. DCS World does not simulate a aircraft with a ALE-41 style Chaff dispenser that will lay down a corridor of chaff, much like they did in WWII to cloud the sky with aluminum strips cut to different lengths to confuse the different wavelengths of Search and Fire Control RADARS. Of course now a days we depend a lot on a Aircraft's Stealth. The JSF F-35's RADAR is linked to it's ECM suite and is supposed to be able to inject a virus into fire control RADARS, Command and Control Systems. We'll see if they get the software worked out in it to make that possible.

 

So the answer to the DECM pod on the A-10 is "DO NOT LINGER IN THE TARGET AREA"........... One Pass Haul Ass......................

 

Cheers

 

Hoss

Sempre Fortis

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The pods carried by the A-10 (F-16, F-15 ... you get the idea) do whatever their technicians want them to do.

 

@BeoWolf: Yep, it's DECM. Which is a jammer.

 

Riiight. One of the ECM machines carried by the SR-71 would break in to the "link" between a fired SA-2 and its targeting radar, and delay all transmissions, thereby rendering it unable to hit the plane even if it for some reason would have no other ECM turned on. Going to tell me the AN/ALQ-184 can do that?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Are the jammer pods effective at all in this? I feel like all they do is take a spot away from a GBU-12. I understand that ECM in DCS works nothing like in real life, but I feel like it has absolutely no function against radar sams. They seem to engage and fire the same whether I turn ECM on or not. Does anyone have any details on this? Thanks

I have the feeling that you rely too much on the jammer. If you really "feel" the need to put yet another GBU-12 on the outer station, you propably sacrifce too much maneuverabiltiy for weapons load!

 

The jamming makes it difficult for the SAM operator to judge your distance, yet you need to counter any SAM launch with chaff / flares AND maneuvering...

If you are that heavy you are most likely a sitting duck. When a SAM launch is registered, you need to quickly check on the RWR where it roughly comes from (actually you should know the SAMs position already) and try to get "eyes on", if you see the trail, you can judge the distance, pump out countermeasures and now turn, dive and maneuver to bleed the missiles energy! The jammer mostly gives you abit more time to get closer, before the SAM actually launches (at least that's what my feeling is), but it does little to prevent the missile from hitting you!

Shagrat

 

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The pods carried by the A-10 (F-16, F-15 ... you get the idea) do whatever their technicians want them to do.

 

Including things that they are not actually capable of? Don't think so. So for example, they can't provide false guidance to SAMs.

 

Well, they might be able to, but that's way beyond what is declassified about them.

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Providing false guidance signals is a matter of software as long as the physical equipment can manage. There are plenty of factors that need to be considered, such as emitter power, bandwidth capability, etc etc. It's certainly not as simple as you believe it to be, and it really is just your wild, wild guess. Mine's wild too, just not as much.

 

Including things that they are not actually capable of? Don't think so. So for example, they can't provide false guidance to SAMs.

 

Well, they might be able to, but that's way beyond what is declassified about them.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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No, what I do ... actually some of it is classified, but it has nothing to do with the military. :D

 

I just did a lot of research (a lot of hours - there is a lot of publicly available information, but some of it is very hard to find - ie. you must know what you are looking for AND get lucky, some of it requires you to pay money) and I always talk to people who are actually do this stuff. They'll never reveal classified info, but you can learn interesting little bits here and there that is not common public knowledge.

 

In addition, we have plenty of community members here who are in the know, but they might not want to reveal who they are.


Edited by GGTharos

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Providing false guidance signals is a matter of software as long as the physical equipment can manage. There are plenty of factors that need to be considered, such as emitter power, bandwidth capability, etc etc. It's certainly not as simple as you believe it to be, and it really is just your wild, wild guess. Mine's wild too, just not as much.

 

Yeah, go ahead and point out where I wrote that it was easy to feed SAMs false guidance? If anything, I wrote the very opposite.

 

I don't see any reason to believe that your guesses are less "wild", especially since you provide no source other than "I know more than you". Not one thing that I've written have you even tried to disprove to any further extent than writing "you're wrong".

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Yeah, I know you don't :)

 

I don't see any reason to believe that your guesses are less "wild"
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[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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