FW-190 Pre-purchase ???

[Narushima]

Some of you people don't understand that a days pay for me is what you might make in an hour. Not all of us are lucky to have been born in a country with very high paying jobs. You might think you don't deserve your rewards for the money you've paid. Well that's your problem. Buy some more then. Give the codes to someone you know wouldn't buy them, but might just play the game if they get them for free. More players = more publicity and more players on the server.

 

I on the other hand expect to get what I paid for.

[159th_Viper]

It's really quite simple as stipulated on the Kickstarter page: If a founder is unable to fulfil obligations then refund the backers, period. Once refunded, no right of further recourse will reasonably exist. That might be the most convenient way of dealing with this particular situation.

 

This, together with a tab to renounce all benefits.

[ishtmail]

Most RRG employees were recently inducted into ED. They were initially separate.

 

If I recall correctly, when Ilya introduced the team at the campaign start, many of the devs working on DCS:WW2 came from ED. I seem to recall some debate here on the forums about people recognizing individual devs from the video.

[Witchking]

It was easy to predict during the campaing, and if it's an issue it shouldn't be promised. :music_whistling:

 

Mistakes happen. Look at all the botched crowd funded campaigns. ED were in support of the campaign, but RRG was the primary developer. ED personally are not obliged to deliver the results.

 

Thats why returning/issuing credits or refunds to kickstarter backers maybe even to their ED accounts is the best way. That way you can use the money and buy the modules directly from ED.

[Flying Penguin]

ED's involvement wasn't that small.

 

- they actively advertised the project on their webpage.

- they set up a separate page on DCS website for backers who wanted to pay via Paypal

- ED set up the Backer page on their website to choose the rewards

- many people working on DCS:WW2 were ED employees

- ED decided to grant DCS:World serials for P51D and Dora to backers that selected those (I doubt ED would collect that money from the Kickstarter funds to cover the cost of those serials)

- ED granted full use of both P51D and Dora in DCS:WW2

 

 

So, by no means was DCS:WW2 a simple 3rd party project. ED was more involved in this project than any other 'non-ED' stuff, including Belsimtek (whom they've partnered closely with).

To me, this project always felt like RRG was essentially a '2nd development studio for ED', and ED offered so much support to the project that I never had any doubts about ED being heavily involved.

 

Just to add to that:

 

The vast majority of funds needed to finance this project have and will continue to come from Eagle Dynamics (not Kickstarter). To give you a feel… just the Eagle Dynamics developed and funded flight model for the Bf-109K has already cost us about 120k USD (that does not include external model, cockpit model, cockpit systems, etc.). Developing such products is not cheap!

 

 

That's not minimal involvement in the project, I doubt the KS rewards (which included P-51) were not discussed with ED

[159th_Viper]

Thats why......refunds to kickstarter backers.......

 

Indeed - Kickstarter is quite clear on the issue: Refunds in the case of inability to fulfil obligations.

[f-18hornet]

Before thinking anything I'd like to see an official statement about this.

[Flying Penguin]

Indeed - Kickstarter is quite clear on the issue: Refunds in the case of inability to fulfil obligations.

 

Which would be one of the perfectly acceptable solutions. Fulfill the pledges as best* you can or refund.

 

Straight washing of hands isn't, given the level of involvement ED seem to have had in the rest of the project, even if they didn't approve every KS reward.

 

 

 

 

 

*i.e. fulfilling whatever they physically can, not just those that represent good value/business sense for ED.

[ishtmail]

Indeed - Kickstarter is quite clear on the issue: Refunds in the case of inability to fulfil obligations.

 

What saddens me is that if this happens, if it comes to this scenario, then that's it for crowdfunded DCS stuff.

[NineLine]

Just to add to that:

 

 

 

 

That's not minimal involvement in the project, I doubt the KS rewards (which included P-51) were not discussed with ED

 

We dont know what was discussed and what wasnt, we know they offered resources and manpower, but we know little else, and assuming anymore than that is doing us no good.

[Flying Penguin]

We dont know what was discussed and what wasnt, we know they offered resources and manpower, but we know little else, and assuming anymore than that is doing us no good.

 

I'm assuming (based on past record) ED is made up of competent and responsible professionals who do their due diligence when funding a project for which $150k is a drop in the ocean.

 

No more of an assumption than the widespread assumption that ED couldn't possibly afford to honor the KS commitments.

 

In the absence of official word, I'm going to continue to treat them as competent and responsible professionals rather than assume all is lost on the good ship E.D. Titanic.

[NineLine]

I'm assuming (based on past record) ED is made up of competent professionals who do their due diligence when funding a project for which $150k is a drop in the ocean.

 

No more of an assumption than the widespread assumption that ED couldn't possibly afford to honor the KS commitments.

 

Welcome to the assumption game... no winners possible.

 

Lets wait for the official announcement. I am sure it will clear some of this up.

[G00dnight]

at the end of the day I expect I will see very little of this.

DCS: WWII Backer Rewards

 

Backer: Gxxxxxxxt

 

Reward Level: $250,00

 

Beta Access: Yes

 

Listed in Credits: Yes

 

Available Rewards: 8

 

Available Flyables: 6 x 2

 

Your Selected Flyables

 

Flyable Status

1. Accepted

2. Accepted

3. Accepted

4. Accepted

5. Accepted

6. Accepted

Selected Flyables: 6 / 6

 

 

Your Selected Rewards

 

Reward Status

1. Accepted

2. Accepted

3. Accepted

4. Accepted

5. Accepted

6. Accepted

7. Accepted

8. Accepted

Selected Rewards: 8 / 8

[Flying Penguin]

Welcome to the assumption game... no winners possible.

 

Lets wait for the official announcement. I am sure it will clear some of this up.

 

Exactly. So how about we all stop assuming we are about to bankrupt ED?

[159th_Viper]

What saddens me is that if this happens, if it comes to this scenario, then that's it for crowdfunded DCS stuff.

 

You can bet that ED will NEVER touch another crowd-funded endevour again, ever, and rightly so. They have absolutely no need of it, case-in-point a very good example. What this will probably do is negatively impact potential third-party Devs contemplating going down this route, but that's besides the point.

[NineLine]

Exactly. So how about we all stop assuming we are about to bankrupt ED?

 

No one said that. And its not an assumption to say 3 Modules that cost 150,000+ to produce each, given away for a dollar is not good business....

[Flying Penguin]

No one said that. And its not an assumption to say 3 Modules that cost 150,000+ to produce each, given away for a dollar is not good business....

 

Nor is it an assumption to say that there is a significant goodwill (and probably therefore financial) cost associated with washing their hands of the Kickstarter obligations, given they must have funded it at least to the tune of at least 750k**.

 

No doubt it is costly for ED, but as I said above, a refund or fulfillment would be fine, given their involvement, I doubt they will be let completely off the hook by the community. I don't care that ED could make more money selling (up to) 2500 more copies of each module. I care that they act responsibly with respect to a project that they gave significant backing to. They want their ROI too, which is presumable why they stepped in.

 

But as you said, let's wait and see.

 

 

**(using your figures, which I suspect are low compared to reality, 4x150k for aircraft, 150k KS for the 5th aircraft, one aircrafts worth for landscape and P-51 exists already)

Edited June 26, 2014 by Flying Penguin

[ishtmail]

No one said that. And its not an assumption to say 3 Modules that cost 150,000+ to produce each, given away for a dollar is not good business....

 

3 modules given away to 2500 backers, not to anyone and everyone.

 

We're talking about a full value of roughly 375k - 2500 * 3 * 50 (if each module's full price was $50 and if each of the 2500 backers bought three modules at full price). Even with taking into account everyone with 6 planes or more, the total 'outfall' isn't more than a million dollars. I doubt ED only planned to sell a million worth of planes from THREE modules (let alone six), and I highly doubt that the number of potential customers for WW2 planes is as low as 2500 (more like 100.000).

 

What I'm trying to say is: honoring 2500 pledges is peanuts compared to the full potential this line of products has.

Edited June 26, 2014 by ishtmail

[NineLine]

They are hardly off the hook. They have to produce all the aircraft mentioned, plus create DCS World all over again in the year 1944 (AI units, core systems, etc).... they are far far far from off the hook.

 

Nor is it an assumption to say that there is a significant goodwill (and probably therefore financial) cost associated with washing their hands of the Kickstarter obligations, given they must have funded it at least to the tune of at least 750k**.

 

No doubt it is costly for ED, but as I said above, a refund or fulfillment would be fine, given their involvement, I doubt they will be let completely off the hook by the community.

 

But as you said, let's wait and see.

 

 

**(using your figures, which I suspect are low compared to reality, 4x150k for aircraft, 150k KS for the 5th aircraft, one aircrafts worth for landscape and P-51 exists already)

[Flying Penguin]

They are hardly off the hook. They have to produce all the aircraft mentioned, plus create DCS World all over again in the year 1944 (AI units, core systems, etc).... they are far far far from off the hook.

 

See my edit. They want their ROI, barring act of god or threat of bankruptcy we just want (some of) ours. This project would have happened with or without the KS, it was stated as much, our ROI isn't "the module is available to purchase", that's ED's.

[gavagai]

Welcome to the assumption game... no winners possible.

 

Lets wait for the official announcement. I am sure it will clear some of this up.

 

You have a difficult job Sithspawn. ED could have made it a lot easier if they had made an announcement concurrent with the 190 preoder. There will be an unending downpour of speculation and fortune-telling until we receive official word.:joystick:

[NineLine]

You have a difficult job Sithspawn. ED could have made it a lot easier if they had made an announcement concurrent with the 190 preoder. There will be an unending downpour of speculation and fortune-telling until we receive official word.:joystick:

 

No comment ;)

[NineLine]

See my edit. They want their ROI, barring act of god or threat of bankruptcy we just want (some of) ours. This project would have happened with or without the KS, it was stated as much, our ROI isn't "the module is available to purchase", that's ED's.

 

 

I am sure you will get some of yours. But brace for it, both sides might take a hit... that's all I am saying...

[Flying Penguin]

You have a difficult job Sithspawn. ED could have made it a lot easier if they had made an announcement concurrent with the 190 preoder. There will be an unending downpour of speculation and fortune-telling until we receive official word.:joystick:

 

+1

 

:drink: anyone?

[Flying Penguin]

I am sure you will get some of yours. But brace for it, both sides might take a hit... that's all I am saying...

 

Which is fine, we're all (mostly?) reasonable people, but there needs to be something for both sides for this not to go sour, what the sweet spot is exactly, is for ED to figure out.

 

So until then, we wait.

 

 

I think I'll just go play Train Simulator 2014 for a while.....:pilotfly: