Straight Up Question: Can ED Take Constructive Criticism?

[lunaticfringe]

Seriously: Weta had a point. Yet, so did docfu.

 

Sorry gents, but this is getting ridiculous. The E3 thing was rough. Technical difficulties suck. But presentation does count. It doesn't mean bringing a full-up simulator with all the switches to a private back room showing, but if you're going to let them tickle the ivory (in opposition to Weta's angle), you let them play the Steinway, not the Casio (which was docfu's). It sets a tone- you've got a serious product on the way, using this new technology, and you want them to experience it to the level they can in their own home. People using the Rift are going to *have* high quality gear, and what's more- they're not going to be able to have full-up simulators anymore. But being able to hold on to what they *can* use with the visor down gets them far closer to what you want them to experience when you let them into the aircraft.

 

It's not harping; it's not expected that a small studio is going to have a lot of folks dedicated to real promotions. There does, however, need to be some polish. It's not like handing a runner the corporate Amex so they could run down to Frys or Micro Center and pick up a Warthog and pedals is going to put a massive dent in the budget. Refreshments on the way back aren't a hit if you're making the person comfortable. Feelies can be done as late as the flight over, with print on demand services for the local Kinkos.

 

This is part of business, and for what is little cost, reaps benefits.

 

People want to see your product. If they're jumping through the hoops to schedule the time, making them feel like you're happy to see them, and not just putting them in a headset, is worth the effort.

 

And realize: people aren't frustrated in this context *AT* you; they're frustrated *FOR* you, because they want others to see your product, which puts dollars in your pocket. Thus, getting confrontational, or upset because people aren't necessarily looking at the angle the same as you do cuts into what amounts to free PR.

 

Don't cut that vein. This is not the programming side of the house where your experts abound; it's abundantly clear. Stand up like adults and take the criticism. Respond if you like. But pay attention to what is valid critique.

[EvilBivol-1]

Constructive criticism can be found all over the forum. Hopefully that answers the topic.

 

As for E3, we did plan on having a bigger and much more visible presence in the main display area of the Oculus booth and also in separate meeting rooms for private demos, but as it happened we were lucky to be able to squeeze in what we did and even that took three days of frantic work from ED and sympathetic understanding from Oculus staff, who could have asked us to pack up as soon as problems appeared, but instead continued to offer their space even while we worked on our setup in the opening hours of the final day of the show. There are a lot of people seeking to work with them and they had no reason to continue accommodating us other than our good relations and mutual respect, which we value and hope will continue in the future.

 

Stay positive. ;)

Edited June 14, 2014 by EvilBivol-1

[aaron886]

Flight simulation, as small as it has become, will GREATLY value the VR experience, and I think Oculus recognizes that. They've probably seen the response for War Thunder with Rift.

[lunaticfringe]

Constructive criticism can be found all over the forum. Hopefully that answers the topic.

 

There was on this subject too, until it vacated the premises. Thus, you'll understand my query in light of the immediate events leading up to it.

 

Stay positive. ;)

 

Always am; I expect nothing, thus I am not frustrated by delay or changing priorities. Others do, hence the volume that can take place here. And understand- I am sympathetic to the events that forestalled what ED intended to do at E3; I myself have traveled cross-country and had thousands of dollars in demonstration materials destroyed in transit, being left to pick up the pieces on the fly. It is indeed a known hazard from this chair, and one that I have respect for from your position.

 

However, I'm looking at this too from the perspective of others who were involved in the aforementioned conversation. Having it disappear doesn't do much in the credibility department; its easier to confront the issue head on, and, even if you choose not to act upon the suggestions offered, maintain the air of interested party. Always intend to maximize the impressions, as it were.

 

And so I agree- it didn't go as intended; but I also see it as being a potential learning experience for more than just the technical side issues.

[NineLine]

Okay guys, i will take a swing at this one, I was reference here so I feel obliged...

 

Lets start here:

 

Main Entry: constructive criticism

Part of Speech: n

Definition: criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions

 

An example from the E3 thread:

 

At this point it's almost comical,I give up.

(for reference this post was made after Wags announced they had run into tech difficulties)

 

I think that the lines between constructive criticism and nonsense like quote above get blurred. ED has never had an issue of taking feedback on their products, if its done in a professional and respectful manner, but lets face it, a good percentage of the time, it degrades into insults and unfounded accusations. I can tell you first hand, as a tester, I have questioned things done by ED on more than one occasion. But again it has to be done with respect. Its funny that you tell ED to stand up like adults, well I challenge the less mature side of the forum to do the same.

 

ED wouldn't have all these bug reporting sections on their forums if they didn't want to hear about problems and issues. How you say something is just as important, if not more so, than what you say.

 

I personally can tell you I have NEVER deleted a post that was constructive... I have never seen anyone else do that either. Has constructive feedback been lost in a thread that has become a non stop rule violation... I am sure. Was there constructive feedback in the E3 thread that was lost... its possible. It's easy to blame ED and say, oh there they go again, censoring everything... they cant handle the truth... maybe, just maybe its time to look at some of our peers here and ask, if you have such little faith in ED, and would rather make smart-ass remarks instead of taking the time to understand what is really going on, what are you doing here?

 

The rules state you have to be respectful to other uses. This goes for how you address ED employees. Payment on their products does not entitle you to speak so freely as to attack or insult them or their work. It doesn't entitle you to know everything they are working on. It doesn't entitle you to tell them how to run their company. It doesn't entitle you to draw conclusions based on assumptions and make false claims.

 

Many of you will read this and agree, I believe that a greater percentage of people here are intelligent sensible people, that includes you LF. Some will just dismiss me as a fanboy, overdosing on Kool-aid. Fact is, ED appreciates our input, everyone... ED has rules of conduct, we have to follow them.

 

As a side note on the E3 thread, and why many of the comments were not constructive.

 

Consoles make people money. So OR and E3 were probably more focused on showing an environment based on that thinking... if ED could have had a cockpit there you don't think they would have??? No they had a couch and entertainment center where people could look at the latest cookie cutter game.

 

ED is a small company, I am assuming their budget for shows such as E3 is somewhat smaller than, oh I dunno... EA. They could probably make a game like War Thunder, or WoTs... do we want to trade that for a bigger E3 cardboard cut out, and a couple models dressed up as A-10 pilots?

 

Poop happens. They had problems... it happens, you think they are happy about them? Do you think they need us to come on the forums and rub their noses in it, and that will make them do better next time? Come on guys....

 

So... after all this. The answer to the title... well EB already answered it. ED takes constructive criticism all the time, no issue there.

Edited June 22, 2014 by NineLine

[Rusty_M]

That's something I have to disagree with. I certainly feel criticism should be framed appropriately, but I've never believed anyone was above criticism.

 

From personal experience as an (amateur) musician, I rely on other people's criticism to tell me where and how I can improve.

 

I believe criticism is necessary, but should really be only given with careful consideration.

[westr]

Its not wrong to critisise, but it can be done respectfully. And I dont think there's ever a need to be insulting.

[Rusty_M]

And I dont think there's ever a need to be insulting.

 

Unless their father is a hamster and their mother smells of elderberries.

[westr]

Unless their father is a hamster and their mother smells of elderberries.

 

OK well maybe then somebody needs to say something. :)

[joey45]

But there is a point ware it goes beyond criticism..

[lunaticfringe]

Understand two things prior to the following:

 

1. I am in agreement with Sith pretty much across the board, and

2. I was only in the E3 thread long enough to review the tail end of the conversation that docfu was driving, which I do find to have been "constructive".

 

That said, this has to be responded to:

 

I honestly believe no-one should ever feel the right to post criticism, even if they think it's 'constructive'.

 

That's just... wow.

 

Have you ever been part of a beta? It's *all* criticism. Every bug, every modeling failure- that is criticism. But let's not have that. Every release is hunky dory. Let's just have us an echo chamber and treat one another as though we're all three years old and need to be taken on walkies, nappies, and snackies. Nothing is ever wrong, nothing is ever out of sorts. Everything is great all the time.

 

No one ever has the right to post criticism? Don't go into business on your own.

[SkateZilla]

Constructive Criticism or Product Feedback is one thing,

 

Condescending/Sarcastic/Abusive/Insulting Feedback, or Basically anything that is not Helpful (Constructive (serving a useful purpose;) is another thing and will 99% of the time be deleted.

[NineLine]

2. I was only in the E3 thread long enough to review the tail end of the conversation that docfu was driving, which I do find to have been "constructive".

 

I wholeheartedly disagree.... (one example)

 

If that's their E3 setup I'd say they aren't taking it very seriously...

 

This is not constructive for a number of reasons.

 

1) He did not bother to either understand, or find out all the info for what was going on in the pictures.

 

2) It was insulting to say ED is not taking it seriously, to assume they dont understand the importance of a good showing there

 

3) he didn't offer anything beyond an insult. What did he expect out of ED, what would he like to have seen ED's setup be, of course he did later with his silly comments, but again, hardly constructive.

 

Sorry guys, but this stuff just isn't gonna cut it. You cannot offer constructive criticism with little to no knowledge of what is going on, or veiled in smart-assed comments.

[upupandaway]

This thread could serve as a useful reference for when this particular problem might pop up again (and it will), but I fear it´s not going to help very much in the end because in so many cases a small number of people are very resistant to any rational argument. It´s certainly a good time to bring it up this issue.

 

Bug reports aren´t even the biggest problem, or are they? I personally think (contrsuctive) criticism should always be encouraged and ususally there is in fact an open ear for the communities issues.

I find it baffling at times how easily this is forgotten and a simple discussion gets turned around just because somebody deliberately ignores any hints given to understand the current situation in its specific context - and that´s something which is not likely to change, especially if this community is to grow in the future.

Problems with regard to form or content of criticism are generally not just limited to this community.

 

From friend´s accounts I know that this is also a problem in teaching: despite all qualifications and standards in rating systems you will never have a definitive and satisfactory end product like in engineering, but instead it is an ongoing (and frustrating) process of chanelling people into the "right understanding"... I don´t envy them for their job...

 

ED is the central entity onto which people project most of their expectations related to DCS World and no matter how talented and educated ED´s guys are and no matter how hard they work - they can´t make all of the people happy all of the time.

Add to this everything being "subject to change" and you are guaranteed to have some people voice their deep frustration over what they consider a betrayal. Both "sides" will have to work continuously to bridge these issues and most of this effort will always fall to the mods. That´s why we have to have them around.

[Darkwolf]

I won't name any comparison as moderators kindly asked to not do that, but i think ED forum is quite a decent place to be. I will not claim to know as much as you guys, but from my little perspective ED is quite reactive to criticism. Maybe not communicative, but take a look at Fc3 story. They ported fc2 planes, all complained about poor quality. They are now making 6dof and new 3d model. People complained about CA incomplete ? They added basic FCS and radar display. Everyone complained about comms, ghey did wagsday for a while.

They may not be reacting to everyone's dream, but they do some. Again, i wish incould name a lot of other products as example. But i can't so i ll just say - believe it or not, i don t know a lot of devs with their level. Onlh a few worth ED, from my (little) experience. You may know better guys, i do too. But still, ED team is doing fine. The forum is decently moderated (must not be easy tasks with some of us).

 

Maybe if wags would not have to 'walk on eggs' with every word he say, ED would communicate more freely.

 

Thats my humble opinion. I do not post often but read the forum a lot.

 

Have a good night !

[lunaticfringe]

Sorry guys, but this stuff just isn't gonna cut it. You cannot offer constructive criticism with little to no knowledge of what is going on, or veiled in smart-assed comments.

 

You and I both know that he said more than the cherry-picked quote you've provided, and he dialed it back to clarify as the argument was brought to him. He did, however, show signs of frustration as his actual message was impaled by the nature of the echo chamber. That's his lesson.

 

As to presentation, the general population "rah rahs" can learn to dial it back a good measure as well. Not every detraction is a personal attack, or an insufferable offense to ED's honor, and should not be approached as such. The moderation staff and the members of the firm who review the forums are adults, and can fight their own battles if need be.

[NineLine]

You and I both know that he said more than the cherry-picked quote you've provided, and he dialed it back to clarify as the argument was brought to him. He did, however, show signs of frustration as his actual message was impaled by the nature of the echo chamber. That's his lesson.

 

As to presentation, the general population "rah rahs" can learn to dial it back a good measure as well. Not every detraction is a personal attack, or an insufferable offense to ED's honor, and should not be approached as such. The moderation staff and the members of the firm who review the forums are adults, and can fight their own battles if need be.

 

 

 

Sorry for cherry picking.... here is the rest of his "constructive" feedback:

 

They need some German girls in bikinis, beer, sausage and something other than a cheap piece of plastic for a joystick.

 

No rudder pedals either?

 

I'd still want a beer...

 

Who says I didn't understand what was going on? For an E3 presentation, sitting on a cheap sofa with a cheap joystick and an awesome occulus rift doesn't seem very...well presented.

 

It doesn't matter if the person who is using the occulus rift is having an awesome experience, everyone else looking at the photo just sees a guy on a couch wearing a vr display.

 

And I still say he needs a beer.

 

*EDIT*

 

Fine, I apologize, it's a totally awesome picture of wags sitting on a couch flying the new 1.3.0 with EDGE in a beta fighter.

 

And it's incredibly cool that he's having a totally awesome VR experience, and we should all be very proud of that...

 

Sorry, that is all I saw.. I apologize if I missed any more....

[lunaticfringe]

Seems my memory, or the overall back and forth context of the conversation isn't as I fully read it. I stand corrected. I'd rather be able to go back and review the full thing, but I'll leave it as shown.

[lunaticfringe]

The Kinney F-35 thread still makes my skin crawl :(.

 

Eh. I'm a big proponent of "caveat emptor", and the Kinney F-35 thing doesn't phase me a bit. The board got all sorts of animated, but the fact remains that someone promised the sun, the moon, the stars, and whip cream and a cherry on top, and had not a snowball's chance in Hell of delivering. And there were individuals in place who were capable of confirming the situation, which made the choice to not back the project an easy one.

 

I will say I was sad to see an old familiar name (that being "Stormin'") get mixed up in the fray based on his support for Kinney, but I can't say that what would have happened in the aftermath would have been any less painful than what has been witnessed here more recently with the former Beczl Studio, and now RRG. And the latter really makes me wonder if the lesson was learned from the Kinney experience. There has got to be a point where a third-party studio has to produce before being able to advertise the DCS brand, because it puts a laser focus right back on ED.

[docfu]

ED can take criticism.

 

Sithspawn was to delete my comments because I was an ass.

 

But the problem is that ED did nothing to improve it's E3 image. It is still just a photo of wags sitting on a couch wearing an oculus rift.

 

That photo will sit on the boards for all time as a permanent reminder of bad PR.

 

As will hundreds of other worthless posts, taking up the time of people who are unfortunate enough to read them.

 

So the lesson here that I learned is that I shouldn't make light humor when ED's image is at stake, nor should I waste my time on these forums because I will end up being outed and used as an example of what makes a bad customer.

[Silver_Dragon]

That is nothing constructive docfu.... :(

[blackbelter]

But the problem is that ED did nothing to improve it's E3 image. It is still just a photo of wags sitting on a couch wearing an oculus rift.

 

That photo will sit on the boards for all time as a permanent reminder of bad PR.

 

I still remember your initiative in the contest for the best VR shots in DCS. Maybe you can post (with the permission from the authors, of course) some of the good candidates here. That would be something for the PR department of ED to learn from.

 

I would consider that very constructive.

Edited June 25, 2014 by blackbelter

[upupandaway]

If everybody was responsible and objective the world would generally be a better place...

[Richard Rodgers]

I am relatively new to DCS, but from what I have seen ED seem to be very focused in most things they do. Especially when compared to the likes of Microsoft.

 

With all software, whether it be DCS or whatever, the writers and testers can not physically test all eventuallities for how us folks use it and ultimately bend it. That is why they ENCOURAGE us all to report any bugs etc along with any suggestions of how things could be improved.

 

The prob that ED have is that they are always looking at their product from the inside which is why it is down to you and me to help them where possible with constructive comments. If you feel that something is crap, there is no point whatsoever simply saying that. You MUST back it up with WHY it is and WHAT you think it should be.

 

Without that being done, is it any surprise that some folks feel things don't get sorted. You have to say the correct things in the correct way to get the correct answer.

 

Simple common sense really.