DCS WW2 fighter comparison

[USARStarkey]

He cant because there is no definitive evidence that 1.98ata was ever operationally used.

 

"Aspera G.m.b.H., Kamenz on orders from OKL Chef TLR F1. E. 3 V reports in Geschwindigkeitmessungen mit 4 VDM Luftschrauben auf Me 109 K4 mit DB 605 D dated 4 January 1945 that full measurments could not be reported due to engine damage at 1.98 ata. Trotz mehrerer Stunden schonenden Einfliegens des Motors mit Dauerleistung vor den Messreihen mit Kampfleistung stellte sich bei den ersten Prüfläufen nach der Umstellung auf p = 1,98 ata ein Motorschaden heraus, der einen Motorwechsel notwendig machte. 35

 

Interner Aktenvermerk Nr. 6642 from Daimler-Benz (internal memo) dated 17.1.45 reports on a meeting held 10 January 1945 at OKL, Berlin. All 4 DB 605 DC engines supplied to Rechlin from DB-Genshagen failed (pistons, piston rods, supercharger), therefore special emergency power DC (1.98 ata boost pressure) for the troops is not released (die Sondernotleistung DC (1,98 ata Ladedruck) für die Truppe nicht freigegeben). 36

 

Niederschrift Nr 6717 from Damiler-Benz, dated 19.1.45, states that DB 605 D engines from Kassel are delivered at 1.80 ata boost with B4 and Mw 50. Die Motoren DB 605 D werden in Kassel allgemein mit Ladedruck 1,80 ata mit B4 und Mw 50 abgenommen. 37

 

Niederschrift Nr 6730 of Daimler Benz dated 24 January 1945 details discussion at a conference held 20 January 1945 in the office of the Chief engineer of the Luftwaffe in Berlin: It states that testing of 1.98 boost pressure may be done provisionally at Group 2/11, only engines with 1.8 boost may be supplied and strict punishment is threatened if this instruction is neglected. Also of note is mention of problems due to poor quality fuel as well as a devastating comparison of the Me 109 and the Mustang. 38

 

Niederschrift Nr 6731 of Daimler Benz also dated 24 January 1945 discusses a meeting held at Rechlin on 16.1.45. Some of the same material is discussed as in Nr 6730, the conclusions being that 1,98 ata is not to be used on the front line. Testing at Rechlin will continue. 39

 

Messerschmitt's Erprobungsbericht Nr. 15 vom 16.1.45 bis 15.2.45 dated 22.2.45 states that 1.98 ata is blocked, testing done at 1.80 ata: WM 50 Betreib - Nach Mitteilung der E'Stelle sind 1,98 ata gesperrt. Die Erprobung (Funktion und Kerzentemperatur) wird vorläufig mit 1,80 ata (2800 U/min) durchgeführt. 40"

 

 

"II./JG 11, the Me 109 unit that had earlier experimented with 1.98 ata, also disbanded during the first few days of April:

 

An den ersten sechs Tagen im April war das JG 11 nicht im Einsatz; nicht etwa schlechtes Wetter, sondern allein der anhaltende Treibstoffmangel verhinderte ein Eingreifen des Geschwaders in das Geschehen an der Oderfront, an der es im übrigen während ruhig blieb. Offensichtlich erfolgte in diesen Tagen die Auflösung der II./JG 11, deren Flugzeugführer danach zum Teil auf die I. und III. Gruppe verteilt wurden, während einige der erfahreneren und erfolgreichen – darunter Hptm Rüdiger Kirchmayr, Olt. Erich und Lt. Walter Köhne – zu dem Strahlerverbänden versetzt wurden. Für viele der jungen, unerfahrenen Flugzeugführer, die zur Katagorie “C” zählten, endete dagegen der Einsatz in einem fliegenden Verband und sie fanden sich in Fallschirmjäger – oder sogar Waffen-SS Einheiten wieder, um dort als Fussoldaten noch eine Verwendung im Sinne des “Führers” zu finden; mit ihnen gingen eine ganze Anzahl von Männern des Bodenpersonals, deren Stellen durch die Auflösung der II. Gruppe entweder überflüssig wurden oder die durch weiteres weibliches Personal ersetzt wurden. 43"

[Kurfürst]

I do not think anyone in their right mind takes these articles by mr. williams too seriously. :music_whistling:

[NineLine]

I do not think anyone in their right mind takes these articles by mr. williams too seriously. :music_whistling:

 

Guys, everyone needs to be respectful in this thread to each others opinions... here is an example.

 

"I do not think these articles by mr. williams are historically accurate."

 

See... simple.

[USARStarkey]

I do not think anyone in their right mind takes these articles by mr. williams too seriously. :music_whistling:

 

That is a ridiculous statement. I'm sure you'd rather I just use your website that pertains only to a single aircraft.

 

Furthermore, your picture is a list of what plane that squadron had, and what plane they supposedly went to. I dont see any primary source documentation showing that they ACTUALLY converted to 1.98ata. This is a point that has been made here before and you seem to want to ignore.

[Krupi]

Guys, everyone needs to be respectful in this thread to each others opinions... here is an example.

 

"I do not think these articles by mr. williams are historically accurate."

 

See... simple.

 

I think they took your advice but instead of adding each other to the ignore list they agreed to put you on there instead :smartass:

[NineLine]

I think they took your advice but instead of adding each other to the ignore list they agreed to put you on there instead :smartass:

 

 

Like my teenagers at home ;)

 

Just disagree nicely people... thats all we want :D

[tempestglen]

Like my teenagers at home ;)

 

Just disagree nicely people... thats all we want :D

 

WWII flight simulation circle not big, kurfurst is famous for his effort of asking il2 to add highboost 109K4 etc. and his 109 website, besides long time quarrel with "allied" side. If you debate for 10 years, keeping good temper is difficult when you see old opponents comes out.:D

[NineLine]

WWII flight simulation circle not big, kurfurst is famous for his effort of asking il2 to add highboost 109K4 etc. and his 109 website, besides long time quarrel with "allied" side. If you debate for 10 years, keeping good temper is difficult when you see old opponents comes out.:D

 

If you dont like his posts, either post info countering his info, or ignore it, but the arguing wont be tolerated here... everyone is allowed to have an opinion, I dont care about IL2, or whatever other forums this was on, these are ED's forums. Dont drag the baggage over here, lets all act like adults. If someone wants to act poorly and abuse the rules, the mods will take care of it, sinking to another persons level will only get you in the same boat.

[tempestglen]

If you dont like his posts, either post info countering his info, or ignore it, but the arguing wont be tolerated here... everyone is allowed to have an opinion, I dont care about IL2, or whatever other forums this was on, these are ED's forums. Dont drag the baggage over here, lets all act like adults. If someone wants to act poorly and abuse the rules, the mods will take care of it, sinking to another persons level will only get you in the same boat.

 

Of course I am adult. :) I'm just worried about some other people.

[NineLine]

Of course I am adult. :) I'm just worried about some other people.

 

If there is one lesson I have learned in life is that you can only worry about how one person acts, and that's yourself ;)

[Isegrim]

I hate those threads ...they lead to nothing but frustration.

 

Its like which racecar is the best threads in a Racing simulation Community.

 

1.98 AtA has been tested.....so that means it has been used ;)

[otto]

 

 

 

 

I agree with Isegrim. It's been used.

[MiloMorai]

But, they are NOT 1.98ata K-4s.

[Friedrich-4B]

 

Note the dates - November 44 - 1 Jan 45, when the only unit using 1.98 ata in operational trials was II./JG 11...

 

 

I agree with Isegrim. It's been used.

 

JG 3 isn't one of the four Gruppen that supposedly using 1.98 ata.

 

According to http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/DB605_datasheets_DC.html

the DB 605DB could use either B4 or C3; when reset to DC configuration C3 fuel alone was used - all the C3 triangle indicates is that C3 could be used; it does not indicate the boost pressure, nor does it show what fuel was actually in the fuel tanks.

[otto]

[otto]

 

Jesus Christ ! :D

Just wanted to show who we are discussing with.

FYI Italy was under the wing of Germany for the whole war.

[Kurfürst]

Note the dates - November 44 - 1 Jan 45, when the only unit using 1.98 ata in operational trials was II./JG 11...

 

This has been already addressed in the other thread.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116391&page=6

 

Via Messermeister:

 

Then I guess no fuss arose with E'Stelle Rechlin about problems in service machines... :rolleyes:

 

There were machines converted in 1944, even if DB's directive apparently was not sanctioned by RLM via a TAGTT or Rechlin directive. The instructions to identification of modified engines were clear:

 

Edited June 26, 2014 by Kurfürst

[otto]

Indeed there were tests that did not go very well. But there were actions taken and eventually the K4 1.98 ata was operational:

 

 

Flugzeug Classic 5/2008

 

It's mentioned here that during extensive tests just a spark plug was changed.

 

I don't know how much C3 fuel was available or how many K4s were flying around with 1.98 ata .But there were at least some 1.98 ata K4s.

[gavagai]

Right, now that we know that status of the 190D-9, back to arguing about what kind of fuel the 109K-4 might have used in March 1945 when it no longer mattered.

[otto]

Right, now that we know that status of the 190D-9, back to arguing about what kind of fuel the 109K-4 might have used in March 1945 when it no longer mattered.

 

I'm just having fun until August 5. :D

[diveplane]

good interviews here from ww2 german aces

 

 

according to one of the aces in this interview,

the fw190 was not to good at dive bombing, air cooled system affected aircrafts handing in a dive,

don't recall what version they say in interviews.

Edited June 27, 2014 by diveplane

[Kurfürst]

 

I don't know how much C3 fuel was available or how many K4s were flying around with 1.98 ata .But there were at least some 1.98 ata K4s.

 

Thanks Otto for your scans. I think it settles the matter for good.

 

FYI on C-3, on April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria:

 

B-4 = 350,000 liters

C-3 = 284,000 liters

J-2 = 1,897,000 liters

 

Certainly C-3 was not any harder to come by than B-4. The amount of C-3 directly stocked at airfields (keep in mind that main storage was not at the airfields themselves, they were supplied periodically) was enough for ca. 700 Bf 109 sorties.

 

I do not think the supply of C-3 was a problem, after all, it was a standard Luftwaffe fuel since the start of the war. The Germans even preferred to supply the pro-Mussolini Italians with mostly C-3 instead of B-4 (when either would do). Plus there is of course a wagonload of photos showing 109s with C-3 fuel. I believe though from operational documents that 109 units largely relied on B-4 in the Eastern Front. It had been even mentioned that using methanol was seldom necessary on that front.

 

In any case, the matter has been cleared up yet again with overwhelming evidence more than sufficiently IMO.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Kurfürst

[Friedrich-4B]

FYI on C-3, on April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria:

 

B-4 = 350,000 liters

C-3 = 284,000 liters

J-2 = 1,897,000 liters

 

Certainly C-3 was not any harder to come by than B-4. The amount of C-3 directly stocked at airfields (keep in mind that main storage was not at the airfields themselves, they were supplied periodically) was enough for ca. 700 Bf 109 sorties.

 

That's not mentioning all those Fw 190s which relied on C3 and significantly outnumbered the 109s...

 

I do not think the supply of C-3 was a problem, after all, it was a standard Luftwaffe fuel since the start of the war. The Germans even preferred to supply the pro-Mussolini Italians with mostly C-3 instead of B-4 (when either would do). Plus there is of course a wagonload of photos showing 109s with C-3 fuel. I believe though from operational documents that 109 units largely relied on B-4 in the Eastern Front. It had been even mentioned that using methanol was seldom necessary on that front.

 

As Kurfurst has already stated supplies of C3 fuel were held at depots off the airfields; how much actually reached the airfields when the Allies had air dominance is another question. As has already been shown Luftwaffe units had to scrounge for even small supplies of fuel just to keep going.

 

In any case, the matter has been cleared up yet again with overwhelming evidence more than sufficiently IMO.

 

"Overwhelming evidence" = nothing to say that 1.98 ata was used by the four remaining 109 Gruppen from late March 1945.

[MiloMorai]

Just to put this 284,000 liters in perspective.

 

284,000 l = 62,417 gal

 

Consumption of 150 Grade Fuel - Barrels

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/Consumption_150_Grade_fuel_Barrels.html

 

April 1945

89,000bbl = 3,115,000 gal = 14,173,250 l

 

Using some peoples logic with regard to C3 fuel, then 150PN fuel was in very wide spread use.

 

That's not mentioning all those Fw 190s which relied on C3 and significantly outnumbered the 109s...

Yes ~921 Bf109s vs ~1341 Fw190A/Fs 'on hand'.

 

On 27 April 1945 (5 days after Luftwaffenkommando West said there was 284,000 l of C3) when Fw. Arnulf Meyer and ~9 other pilots were picking some new Bf109s, the fuel tanks were only half filled at a Bavarian airfield.:shocking:

[Kurfürst]

That's not mentioning all those Fw 190s which relied on C3 and significantly outnumbered the 109s...

 

Would you give us a breakdown on all these Fw 190s in Bavaria which "relied on C-3" and "significantly outnumbered" the 109s" dear Jeff?

 

As Kurfurst has already stated supplies of C-3 fuel were held at depots off the airfields; how much actually reached the airfields when the Allies had air dominance is another question.

 

Its a question of reading carefully the evidence. We know that on April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported 284,000 liters of C-3 fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria. Would you kindly re-read it? It says "on Airfields". Not "On depots".

 

As has already been shown Luftwaffe units had to scrounge for even small supplies of fuel just to keep going.

 

As has already been shown, RAF units had to scrounge for even small supplies of fuel, and even ammo just to keep going.

 

"Overwhelming evidence" = nothing to say that 1.98 ata was used by the four remaining 109 Gruppen from late March 1945.

 

Nothing to say that +25 lbs boost was used by the single Spitfire Mk. IX wing from late March 1945. Was it ever used in air to air combat, I wonder.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Kurfürst