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In short:

 

You cannot give an honest answer whether you have seen evidence of the Mark IX problems when converted to 150 grade boost, even though the very information is in the Spitfire book which's pirated images you have saturated the other thread; it is also mentioned by the intel officer of the relavant Canadian Spitfire Wing, the information which you keep deleting from wikipedia. And you pretend, using one of your twelvth internet handles, that you you never seen the evidence to such...

 

You also require evidence which you yourself cannot provide. Apart from that, there is written evidence of the relavant units on the subject of converting engines to 1.98ata, so it is really not my problem if you also want combat reports and whatnot for this really, really happning. By your standards, there is no evidence to that the the 2nd TAF ever used highly boosted Spitfire in combat.

 

Now as for the activities of III./JG 27, you have no idea in that regard as well - even your source notes that, but you only provide snippets - apart from Arnolds seventh claim on the 24 March 1945, the unit kept flying until the end. The later known victories include three Austers on 4 April 1945, then 10 & 12 Staffeln were moving to Prague to protect 262s; several combats are known but not always the results, the last last known and confirmed victory (but the first for the pilot) was by Fw Jünkersfeld over a Spitfire on 24 April 1945, at 15:45. On the 26th air combat also took place, killing a Staffel commander, the last operational sortie was on the 28 April, just a week before the war ended.

 

The rest of you ignorant hysteria doesn't even merit an answer. If you are under the illusion there were 1000+ 109s on the Western front in April 1945 then there is nothing I can do for you. The remaining 109 units in the West in the operational area of the 2nd TAF were those that were cleared and were converted to 1.98ata in March 1945. The rest moved to the east. The facts are on the table, and you cannot offer anything of substance.

 

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html


Edited by Kurfürst
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http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

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In short:

 

 

Now as for the activities of III./JG 27, you have no idea in that regard as well - even your source notes that, but you only provide snippets - apart from Arnolds seventh claim on the 24 March 1945, the unit kept flying until the end. The later known victories include three Austers on 4 April 1945, then 10 & 12 Staffeln were moving to Prague to protect 262s; several combats are known but not always the results, the last last known and confirmed victory (but the first for the pilot) was by Fw Jünkersfeld over a Spitfire on 24 April 1945, at 15:45. On the 26th air combat also took place, killing a Staffel commander, the last operational sortie was on the 28 April, just a week before the war ended.

 

 

Odd. Last combat mission of both 1st and 3rd Gruppen seems to have indeed been on april the 28th, apparently under the command of an ensign(not quite appropriately translated from the German Fahnrich, I'll admit) Wichmann. By that time however both the gruppen were no longer even close to Prague, but apparently operating from a place called Bad Aibling, a place where they had been since april 20th.....

 

http://www.amazon.de/Chronik-Jagdgeschwader-27-Hans-Ring/dp/3613034611/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1403274650&sr=8-5&keywords=jg+27

 

Thats what I found there...

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  • ED Team
Revisionist/speculative history can not be ignored SiThSpAwN.

 

There is a proper way to discuss things. No matter how strongly you feel about them. But its never ok to start in with the insults and such. I enjoy the stuff shared on both sides, but it has to be done in an adult matter or I have to get all moderator up in here....

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_operational_history?oldid=0

 

Funny stuff. Tempest MKV and Dora are even in a 1v1 dogfight.

But in a high speed dive/zoom I believe Tempy is quite better.

 

Comparison: Fw 190D and Hawker Tempest[edit]

 

Shortly after the war the British became interested in the performance and evaluation of the advanced German Fw 190 D-13. While at Flensburg the British Disarmament Wing wanted to see how this fighter would perform against one of their best, a Hawker Tempest. Squadron Leader Evans approached Major Heinz Lange and asked him to fly a mock combat against one of their pilots. Lange accepted, even though he had only 10 flights in a D-9.[77] The mock dogfight was conducted at an altitude of 10,000 ft (3,000 m), with only enough fuel for the flight and no ammunition. In the end the machines were evenly matched. Major Lange assessed that the outcome of such a contest greatly depended on the skills of the individual pilot. At the time Lange was not aware that he was not flying a D-13 but rather a D-9. The same "Yellow 10" (Wk. Nr. 836017) that was previously assigned to Geschwaderkommodore Franz Götz was used in this evaluation. "Yellow 10" was further subjected to mock combat when on 25 June 1945 Oberleutnant Günther Josten was asked to fly a comparison flight against another Tempest.[77]

 

Take note, the Dora did not have MW-50. Also, the article is wrong. The fight did not happen at 3000m, but was capped up to 3000m.

 

Also take note that this was a D-13, which has worse performance than the D-9 at low altitudes.,

 

Also, the D-13 actually won the fight.


Edited by Narushima

FW 190 Dora performance charts:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128354

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Take note, the Dora did not have MW-50. Also, the article is wrong. The fight did not happen at 3000m, but was capped up to 3000m.

 

Also take note that this was a D-13, which has worse performance than the D-9 at low altitudes.,

 

Also, the D-13 actually won the fight.

 

We just know tempy and dora are on a par with each other in 1vs 1 dogfight, roughly. Can I say lange had better skills?

 

D-13 is not relevant to WWII. Most of us do not care about it.

 

For many years, the hot debates occurred again and again between blue and red sides, I suggest we calm down, talk facts, and stop insult.

 

BTW, from 1943 late to 1944 spring, USAAF and Luftwaffe were bloodletting around B17s above Germany and luftwaffe had little interest in attacking Britain while the air combat over 3rd reich is definitely out of spitfire's range, so RAF had no incentive to order more spit and brand new types. This explains why changeover of spit XIV was so slowly. After all, it wasn't BOB.

 

When German were driven out of Normandie, and allied landed on continent, RAF 2nd tactic air force began to operate from bases in France (usually bombed by allied already ). That's late 1944. From then on, the 2nd tactic vs Luftwaffe was of east front type: typical conflict between tactic air forces.


Edited by tempestglen
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http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/theater_barrels_tons.html

 

This data clearly shows that 2nd tactic air force in north west Europe consumed 2000 to 12000 tons 150 fuel per month from Jan. to May. 1945.

 

Thus high boost Spit/Tempy actually combated from Jan after shipment of 150 fuel occurred from Britain in mid Dec. 1944 and distributed to Sqn in Jan. 1945 from Antwerp.


Edited by tempestglen
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I read this one too:

 

This Dora [aircraft was flown by MajorFranz Götz, CO of JG 26 (Ritterkreuz holder, 63 victories)]was captured by the Royal Air Force at Flensburg-Weiche airfield. The German national insignia was overpainted with a dark blue-grey colour by Britishpersonel with strangely positioned small white stars on the fuselage and wings. The inscription 'USA 14' was handpainted on the starboard side of the tail also. This aircraft took part in two mock dogfights with a Hawker Tempest Mk.V on July 25, 1945. The Dora was flown by German pilots – Maj. Heinz Lange (former Kommodore of JG 51, Ritterkreuz holder, 70 victories) a Oblt. Günther Josten (former Kommandeure of IV./JG 51, 178 victories). Based on this evaluation, both aircraft were considered to be nearly equal except for speed at height where the Dora was better. This Dora was handed over to the Americans and shipped overseas via Cherbourg, France, aboard the British aircraft carrier HMS Reaper to the U.S.A

 


Edited by LcSummers
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^^^^

Do not use overly large type. Especially for no reason at all.

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I read this one too:

 

This Dora [aircraft was flown by MajorFranz Götz, CO of JG 26 (Ritterkreuz holder, 63 victories)]was captured by the Royal Air Force at Flensburg-Weiche airfield. The German national insignia was overpainted with a dark blue-grey colour by Britishpersonel with strangely positioned small white stars on the fuselage and wings. The inscription 'USA 14' was handpainted on the starboard side of the tail also. This aircraft took part in two mock dogfights with a Hawker Tempest Mk.V on July 25, 1945. The Dora was flown by German pilots – Maj. Heinz Lange (former Kommodore of JG 51, Ritterkreuz holder, 70 victories) a Oblt. Günther Josten (former Kommandeure of IV./JG 51, 178 victories). Based on this evaluation, both aircraft were considered to be nearly equal except for speed at height where the Dora was better. This Dora was handed over to the Americans and shipped overseas via Cherbourg, France, aboard the British aircraft carrier HMS Reaper to the U.S.A

 

 

I've read somewhere that a D-13 outpaced/climbed tempy at high altitude.That's natural because D-13 equipped with 2-stage supercharger while tempy remained 1-stage. During the development of Tempy Sabre engine(1943?), Britain engineer of that company decided to drop 2-stage supercharger for speed the progress. Thus tempy high altitude was same as bf109/fw190a/D9. And fw190D-13 is another story, but irrelevant to WWII. :)

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Where is the evidence that the SINGLE XIV Wing that were supposed to use +21 lbs boost ever made the transition?

 

What Kurfurst is forgetting is that the Spitfire XIV squadrons had already converted to 100/150 grade fuel in June/July 1944 while they were still part of ADGB; eg: 610 Sqn ORB

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/610_ORB_14July44_21lbs.jpg

 

By the time the squadrons were transferred to 125 Wing 2 TAF the Griffon engine was fully capable of using either 100/130 or 100/150 grade fuel:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Griffon_64_Operating_Limitations.pdf

 

Same for the Merlin 66:

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no1_25lbs.jpg

 

Thus there was no "transition" in January, February 1945, except in the type of fuel being supplied to the unit and modified timing. By contrast, although Kurfurst has constantly shown an order stating that certain Gruppen were to use 1.98 ata, there is no evidence from the Gruppen themselves that confirms this ever happened, although he first made the claim that the transition was definitely made about ten years ago; in fairness, he alluded to the existence of unit KTBs confirming the transition in another thread:

 

That is incorrect, the KTBs of the relevant unit leave no doubt about the use of 1,98ata engine settings.

 

Unfortunately, these have not yet been shown.

 

This same order states that all other G-10/G-14 units were to transition fully to the K-4, while units still using the Fw 190A/F/G were all to transition to using the D-9 or D-12 or Ta-152C/H, yet clearly this did not happen according to plan.

 

Another factor is the number of airfields just one unit, III./JG 53, apparently moved to (eight in two months):

 

 

III./JG 27 bases:

 

18.3.45 - 29.3.45Gütersloh Bf 109K

29.3.45 - 8.4.45 Goslar Bf 109K

8.4.45 - 11.4.45 Halberstadt Bf 109K

11.4.45 - 4.45 Grossenhain Bf 109K

4.45 - 20.4.45 Prague-Gbell Bf 109K

20.4.45 - 2.5.45 Bad Aibling Bf 109K

2.5.45 - 5.45 Salzburg Bf 109K

5.45 - 8.5.45 Saalbach Bf 109K

 

How quickly and constantly did supplies of B4 or C3 fuel follow these changes of base, knowing how hard many units had to improvise just to get even a small supply of fuel, and how many K-4s were grounded through lack of fuel?

 

Hauptmann Roderich Cescotti, an Fw 190D pilot and Gruppe maintenance officer with II./JG 301, described the difficulty of obtaining aviation fuel for his aircraft during the early months of 1945:

“Getting fuel for the fighters was not so much a logistics operation, more an intelligence battle. We would send tankers on circuitous journeys, picking up 5,000 litres in one place, 2,500 litres at another; sometimes it might take as long as a week to collect the twenty tons of fuel needed for a single fighter operation.” Price The Last Year of the Luftwaffe 2001 p. 108.

 

Nor has any evidence ever been supplied that of this single XIV Wing of the 2nd TAF ever used higher boost on operations. Nor for the single or two Mark IX Wing for that matter. There is not a single combat account of a XIV or IX pilot ever mentioning the use of high boost against an enemy aircraft. Of course there may be some still. Its just not found yet... in like, 15 years of desperate search. :P

 

So what? There's far more evidence than one solitary little document showing that the Griffon and Merlin engines were using 100/150 grade fuel, and that considerable effort was being expended to supply 2 TAF; Kurfurst is now promoting the idea that Rolls-Royce, Supermarine and the RAF & 2 TAF went to all the trouble of altering the engines and supplying the fuel and then refused to allow front-line squadrons to use it!

 

165_oprep_16sept44_zps4cbee09f.jpg

 

This makes it very clear that 2 TAF would no longer use 100/130 grade from 15 December 1944; ergo all units had to use it.

 

date-of-change_zps857510b9.jpg

 

2taf150_112044_zps8d63e3fc.gif

 

now-being-introduced_zps13ed767f.jpg

 

As of January 1945 these engines - which covers all of those types used in 2 TAF - were cleared to use 100/150 grade:

 

engines-cleared-for-150_zpscc44623e.jpg

 

No idea where the "15 years of desperate search" has come from, except in Kurfurst's imagination. No doubt a search through the National Archives records could produce more evidence, although many such records have yet to be digitised, thus they need to be read on site. Those files that are available digitally cost £3.30 each to download and cannot be read until they are bought and downloaded - without knowing which reports detail when units started using 100/150 grade, or which combat reports mention the use of high boost the search becomes very expensive very quickly - not worth it just to prove one individual wrong.


Edited by Friedrich-4/B
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III./JG 27 bases:

 

18.3.45 - 29.3.45Gütersloh Bf 109K

29.3.45 - 8.4.45 Goslar Bf 109K

8.4.45 - 11.4.45 Halberstadt Bf 109K

11.4.45 - 4.45 Grossenhain Bf 109K

4.45 - 20.4.45 Prague-Gbell Bf 109K

20.4.45 - 2.5.45 Bad Aibling Bf 109K

2.5.45 - 5.45 Salzburg Bf 109K

5.45 - 8.5.45 Saalbach Bf 109K

 

It should be noted that this was a movement from NW Germany, east and then south to the German/Austrian border area.

 

I./JG27 had a similar movement.

 

III. and IV./JG 53 ended up in the same area.

 

..an extract from Lorant/Goyat "Bataille dans le ciel d'Allemagne" ...(a translation)

 

At Kleinkarolinenfeld, around ten pilots who no longer had aircraft piled into a truck at dawn on 27 April 1945 in order to drive to the airfield at Bad Wörishofen and take delivery of Messerschmitt 109s fresh out of the factories. Fw. Arnulf Meyer (9. Staffel) never forgot the scenes they witnessed that day:

 

Rows of Messerschmitt 109s and Focke-Wulf 190s lined up around the airfield perimeter, others out in the open (!) under the odd camouflage net. Teams of oxen in yokes in the midst of all this enabled the aircraft to be moved around without utilizing any manpower or fuel… At least one hundred fighters from the assembly lines were dispersed around the field. The Officer that met us showed us the latest sub-types to be delivered: Focke-Wulfs with in-line engines and in particular the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K, an improved sub-type of our “Gustav” model. There was bustling activity on the field. Aircraft were landing and taking off constantly. There was no airfield protection Rotte in the air. Our surprise was even greater when we were told that thirty brand new aircraft were due to arrive at the depot that day if the necessary pilots to ferry them in could be found. We were presented to the airfield commander who had set up his office in a comfortably appointed wooden shack: a fatherly Major who gave us a pleasant welcome. Of course we wanted to take the Bf 109 Ks… He asked us for our papers indicating our various type ratings but after scrutinizing them, he handed them back with a shake of the head and simply said: “sorry, I can’t give you any K-4s. You’ve only flown the G-10, so take the G-10s!”

 

We tried to explain to him that whether they were the G or K variant, they were still Messerschmitt 109s and any mods were almost certainly to be of a minor nature, unlikely to impact on the handling qualities of the aircraft. He did not appear particularly convinced by our arguments, but I noted how keenly he eyed us smoking our American cigarettes. These were retrieved from US prisoners and our Spieß always had them in his stocks. As naturally as possible, I offered the Major one of these cigarettes. His face lit up. Just for good measure, I left a barely started packet on his desk. He thanked me and told us that he was going to see what he ‘‘could do”. In the minute that followed, more packets of cigarettes changed hands and in this way we soon had authorization to take the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4s!

 

We went to select our Messerschmitts in the company of the line chief, who asked us what our destination airfield was. The fuel crisis had also reached this field. Our aircraft were fueled with enough for thirty minutes flying time, which was largely sufficient to get back to Kleinkarolinenfeld. On the other hand the armament magazines were empty. We were given parachutes and life jackets. Suddenly we saw a car drawing up and out climbed the depot commander. He told us in a voice bereft of emotion that he was not sorry that we were taking the 109 Ks. Then he read the text of a teleprinter message he had just received. The presence of American troops and tanks was reported ten kilometers from Bad Wörishofen and he was ordered to immediately destroy all the aircraft housed on the airfield. The Major explained to us that the 109s were easier to blow up than the 190s, as they carried as standard a delayed-action 3 kg explosive charge in the fuselage housed next to the fuselage fuel tank. We smoked a last cigarette together with the officer. The imminent debacle seemed more of a relief to him than anything else. He had fought during the First World War and had been wounded but was of the opinion that the disaster befalling our country was of a much more serious nature on this occasion. He hoped that we would soon be back among our families and that we would not risk our lives pointlessly. He started up his car and drove off.

 

My first takeoff in the Bf 109 K held no surprises. The aircraft was poorly trimmed and the compass was not functioning, which meant that I had to follow my comrades blindly. A typical product of our war industry in 1945: the instruments were incorrectly calibrated and there was nothing coming through the oxygen mask. Fortunately our flight level did not exceed 1,000 meters. We all landed without incident at Kleinkarolinenfeld. Happily enough the brakes worked…

 

Fw. Arnulf Meyer was with III./JG53

Bad Wörishofen is just W of Munich and SSW of Augsburg

Of note is the G-10 comment > III./JG53 was flying G-10s not K-4s

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III./JG 27 bases:

 

18.3.45 - 29.3.45Gütersloh Bf 109K

29.3.45 - 8.4.45 Goslar Bf 109K

8.4.45 - 11.4.45 Halberstadt Bf 109K

11.4.45 - 4.45 Grossenhain Bf 109K

4.45 - 20.4.45 Prague-Gbell Bf 109K

20.4.45 - 2.5.45 Bad Aibling Bf 109K

2.5.45 - 5.45 Salzburg Bf 109K

5.45 - 8.5.45 Saalbach Bf 109K

 

It should be noted that this was a movement from NW Germany, east and then south to the German/Austrian border area.

 

Bad Wörishofen is just W of Munich and SSW of Augsburg

 

A rough plot of III./JG 27's movements (total distance roughly 986 km; Bad Wörishofen also shown):

 

IIIJG27_zpsf6149bff.jpg

 

In the nightmare conditions that prevailed for the Luftwaffe's transport and supply echelons, how easy was it for fuel supply to be arranged?


Edited by Friedrich-4/B
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A wider scale of operational use for ca. 25 Sqds of IXs from the 2nd TAF on the continent was stipulated at the end of 1944, but it took about mid-late February that the changeover actually took place. Again, some techical troubles with the engines occured, with engines stopping at take off and some lethal accidents.

 

In short:

You cannot give an honest answer whether you have seen evidence of the Mark IX problems when converted to 150 grade boost, even though the very information is in the Spitfire book which's pirated images you have saturated the other thread; it is also mentioned by the intel officer of the relavant Canadian Spitfire Wing, the information which you keep deleting from wikipedia.

 

In short Kurfurst's only reference is from page 199 of "Invasions Without Tears" by Monty Berger (Snr Intelligence Officer 126(RCAF) Spitfire Wing) and Brian Jeffrey Street [Random House, 1994]. This says the Wing's pilots distrusted 100/150 grade and attributed engine problems to the fuel; however, there is no evidence given anywhere in the book that the fuel was actually the cause of engine failures, and nowhere does it mention "lethal accidents" caused by the fuel. Incidentally, 402(RCAF) Sqn, which was a part of this wing flew Spitfire XIVs...

 

Invwotrs-001a_zps91c5e370.jpg

 

If Kurfurst has got other references that directly link Merlin or Griffon engine failures and lethal accidents to 100/150 grade there's nothing stopping him from adding to the pool of knowledge.

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It most likely that these accidents with 150 fuel was because pilots were not following SOP of revving the engine before beginning their take off run to clear the spark plugs which had been fouled during taxiing to the take off point.

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Fw. Arnulf Meyer was with III./JG53

Bad Wörishofen is just W of Munich and SSW of Augsburg

Of note is the G-10 comment > III./JG53 was flying G-10s not K-4s

 

LtLnadt_K4_11JG53_Y1_Wnrxxxxxx_April45_viaJapo.jpg

 

Commander of 11./JG 53 (III. Gruppe), Lt. G. Landt, in the cocpit of his Bf 109K-4, Yellow 1, photographed at Kreuzstraße airfield, in April 1945.

The 'C-3' notice instructing the ground crew for filling the aircraft with 'C-3' grade fuel is blurry but visible on the cocpit. Photograph via Janda-Poruba, Messerschmitt 109K, Camouflage and Markings.

 

Me 109K Boost gauge for 1.98ata.

 

Fl20555erweitert_2_via_cockpitinstrumente_de.jpg

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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LtLnadt_K4_11JG53_Y1_Wnrxxxxxx_April45_viaJapo.jpg

 

Commander of 11./JG 53 (III. Gruppe), Lt. G. Landt, in the cocpit of his Bf 109K-4, Yellow 1, photographed at Kreuzstraße airfield, in April 1945.

The 'C-3' notice instructing the ground crew for filling the aircraft with 'C-3' grade fuel is blurry but visible on the cocpit. Photograph via Janda-Poruba, Messerschmitt 109K, Camouflage and Markings.

 

The DB 605DB could use either B4 w/MW 50 or C3 without, so B4 could be filling the tank, regardless of what the fuel triangle says.

 

Me 109K Boost gauge for 1.98ata.

 

Fl20555erweitert_2_via_cockpitinstrumente_de.jpg

 

Just because it reads to 1.98 ata and above doesn't mean that it ever reached 1.98 ata; eg: This is the speedo of a 1963 Mini Cooper 1071 S which reads to 130 mph or 210 km/h - top speed of the Cooper S was 90 mph (145 km/h) http://www.supercars.net/cars/115.html

 

CooperSspeedometer_zps7aab46c4.jpg

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A rough plot of III./JG 27's movements (total distance roughly 986 km; Bad Wörishofen also shown):

 

Irrelevant, plus Jeff Webbs originally couldn't even figure out where Salzburg (a rather well known Austrian city... ) airfield is - instead, he plotted a unit movement for April 1945 that placed III/JG 27. in Salzburg, Germany hundreds of kilometers behind American lines. :megalol:

 

In the nightmare conditions that prevailed for the Luftwaffe's transport and supply echelons, how easy was it for fuel supply to be arranged?

 

Speculation.

 

In short Kurfurst's only reference is from page 199 of "Invasions Without Tears" by Monty Berger (Snr Intelligence Officer 126(RCAF) Spitfire Wing) and Brian Jeffrey Street [Random House, 1994]. This says the Wing's pilots distrusted 100/150 grade and attributed engine problems to the fuel; however, there is no evidence given anywhere in the book that the fuel was actually the cause of engine failures, and nowhere does it mention "lethal accidents" caused by the fuel. Incidentally, 402(RCAF) Sqn, which was a part of this wing flew Spitfire XIVs...

 

Note that Jeff Webbs has been implying beforehand that he had not seen any evidence of the 150 grade related engine problems - now he posts (and dismisses) the very source he did not seen... ;)

 

If Kurfurst has got other references that directly link Merlin or Griffon engine failures and lethal accidents to 100/150 grade there's nothing stopping him from adding to the pool of knowledge.

 

Sure.

 

Merlin 66 testing with 150 grade fuel, end of July, 1944.

Backfire problems were experienced, possible solution was found, further trials are neccesary.

 

backfiresfixed.jpg

 

Griffon 65 testing with 150 grade fuel,, August 1944.

 

Spitfire XIV (Griffon 65)

 

The engine was then modified to give +25 lb./sq.in. boost and one flight was made. Only two level speed measurements were obtained, as the engine became suddenly rough after about two minutes of the high boost on each level. Subsequent inspection showed that a blow back had occurred, damaging the air intake. The reduction gear was also found to be cracked and no further tests could be made with this engine.

 

Sabre II testing with 150 grade, August 1944:

 

4.1 Tempest V (Sabre II.)

 

Considerable difficulty was experienced on this type of aircraft due to unserviceability. Three aircraft were received from Squadron.

 

During the test, the engine in this aircraft was giving only +7 ˝ lb./sq.in. boost and as a defect was subsequently found, J.N.738 was rejected for further tests at higher boost.

This aircraft was replaced by Tempest J.N.735 but, during the first flight, the engine caught fire and the aircraft had to be abandoned.

 

The effect of increasing the boost pressure was measured on Tempest J.N.763. This aircraft was a standard series I fighter aircraft, similar in quality of finish and in external equipment to J.N.738, described above, except that it did not possess a debris guard.

 

A new boost cam and capsule were fitted allowing an increase in boost pressure to +11 lb./sq.in. The 150 octane fuel was used.

 

Flights were made at +9, +10 and +10 ˝ lb./sq.in. boost respectively (3,700 r.p.m.) One flight at +11 lb./sq.in. boost was made but engine trouble was experienced and in the subsequent inspection, parts of the pistons and piston rings were found in the oil filters.

 

150 grade problems described with Packard Merlins of Mustangs, April 1945.

 

Including plug fouling and cut of power during takeoff (the same phenomenon that plagued 126 Wing)

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/8thaf-techops-4april45.pdf

 

What Kurfurst is forgetting is that the Spitfire XIV squadrons had already converted to 100/150 grade fuel in June/July 1944 while they were still part of ADGB; eg: 610 Sqn ORB

 

No, "Mk XIV Squadrons" did not convert in "June/July" 1944.

 

Even in August 1944 the report says that only 3 Mk XIV Squadrons are involved in the modifications, which are still in the stage of "mostly converted".. :music_whistling:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/backfire-2.jpg

 

They also reverted ASAP the diver threat ended:

 

18th September 1944.

Use of 150 Grade Fuel

 

Sir,

 

I have the honor to refer to the above subject, and state that during the last 6 months a considerable amount of experience has been gained in A.D.G.B. with the use of 150 Grade Fuel in operational aircraft. The use of this fuel allowed higher boost pressures, which gave substantial increases in aircraft performance, and these increases were of great value when Squadrons of A.D.G.B. were employed against the flying bomb. Attached at Appendix �A� is a summary of the experience gained.

 

2. Because the flying bomb menace no longer exists, and because under existing operational commitments, aircraft of A.D.G.B. will have to refuel at landing grounds in Belgium or Holland, it has been decided to revert to the use of 130 Grade Fuel and to adjust engines to their previous maximum boost pressure. To continue to use 150 Grade Fuel in operational Squadrons is undesirable for the following reasons:-

 

By the time the squadrons were transferred to 125 Wing 2 TAF the Griffon engine was fully capable of using either 100/130 or 100/150 grade fuel:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Griffon_64_Operating_Limitations.pdf

 

The manual you linked is a post war (12 November 1945) manual for the Griffon 64, which was never used in the Mk XIV Spitfire... nice try, Jeff. :music_whistling:

 

 

This is from May 1944, for one of the two Squadrons that performed the operational trials. AFAIK, they did not see any combat.

 

It is funny though that as of July 1944, despite being "fully capable" of using 150 grade fuel, they were still writing about possible fixes for backfires and further testing; a month later in August1944 they write about the withdrawal of these IX units with 150 from anti diver duties; and in September 1944, they write about that the further use of 150 grade is "undesirable" with ADGB.

 

Thus there was no "transition" in January, February 1945, except in the type of fuel being supplied to the unit and modified timing.

 

Which would be the transition process itself - modify the engines and supply them with the required fuel.

 

What evidence do you have for the engine modifications being carried out and when did this happen, and for which units?

 

By contrast, although Kurfurst has constantly shown an order stating that certain Gruppen were to use 1.98 ata, there is no evidence from the Gruppen themselves that confirms this ever happened, although he first made the claim that the transition was definitely made about ten years ago; in fairness, he alluded to the existence of unit KTBs confirming the transition in another thread:

 

This is not a contrast - that would be if you could show evidence for select Wings of the 2nd TAF that the transition was made. But you cannot give any evidence.

 

As things stand, the only evidence is the source you dismiss for the 126 Canadian Wing - it says the transition was not done until "early February 1945" (you claim that this occured in "mid December 1944", without any evidence of course).

 

This same order states that all other G-10/G-14 units were to transition fully to the K-4, while units still using the Fw 190A/F/G were all to transition to using the D-9 or D-12 or Ta-152C/H...

 

This, on the other hand, is a bald faced lie. The order states that the all other G-10/G-14 units were to transition to the K-4 K-4 "nachschubmäßig", or "via supply/reinforcements" or "as deliveries permit". The way of conversion was that written-down aircraft were to be replaced by K-4s and thus there would be a drawn-out transition from the G series to K series. They were not throwing out perfectly good Gs and rush for the depot for a brand new K, nor withdrawing units from combats to convert.

 

....yet clearly this did not happen according to plan.

 

Any hard evidence to your bluff?

 

Another factor is the number of airfields just one unit, III./JG 53, apparently moved to (eight in two months):

 

.... and a particular feat of theirs (nope - yours) was when they moved hundreds of kilometers behind enemy lines. :megalol:

 

How quickly and constantly did supplies of B4 or C3 fuel follow these changes of base, knowing how hard many units had to improvise just to get even a small supply of fuel, and how many K-4s were grounded through lack of fuel?

 

Speculation. Apart from that, a technical nonsense - engines set to DC settings would only run on C-3.

 

Curiously, it was not only the Germans who moved a lot, the fuel (and even ammunition) supply was critical for the only confirmed 150 grade operating Mark IX unit of 1945, the 126 Wing.

 

From No 126 Wing RCAF (Aviation Elite Units), by Donald Nijboer, pp. 107-108:

 

"Throughout the transition from B108 to B116 the wing continued to fly armed reconnaissance missions. Indeed, on 15 April Nos 401, 402, 411 and 412 Sqns began their day flying out of B108 in search of ground targets, after which most pilots recovered at B116. No 401 Sqn's WO Campbell (in PL278) actually force-landed at the new base at 1355 hrs after suffering flak damage - his fighter was declared a write-off.

 

And while the wing was still flying its missions, the supply situation became critical due to its rapid move to the northeast. By 16 April the servicing echelons were stretched to the limit, with both petrol and ammunition being unavailable. An emergency airlift was organised which produced 20,000 rounds of 20 mm ammunition and some essential lubricants, but fuel remained a problem."

 

and page 109:

 

Ammunition shortages continued to plague the wing, despite the arrival of another 20,000 rounds by air, and petrol also remained in short supply. Urgent requests were sent and the result was the promise of 13 Dakotas! The plan was for these aircraft to deliver two shipments in one day, but in the end only nine aircraft made one delivery. Priority orders had the Dakotas assigned to casualty evacuation, leaving the wing to struggle on as best it could.

 

The grass airfield at B116 was also beginning to disintegrate under the strain of both transport aircraft and fighters. The forward location of Wunstorf made it the prime destination for dignitaries and other people of importance visiting the frontline, and this resulted in a number of missions being cancelled on the 18th due to the almost non-stop arrival of transport aircraft. Two of the fighters that did manage to take off on that date failed to return to base. Fit Lt D R

Drummond (in RN126) of No 402 Sqn force-landed near B116 after his aircraft was hit by flak and No 412 Sqn's Fit Lt R B Barker (in MK898) ran out of fuel and crash-landed in no man's land between Lubeck and Goldberg. He returned to base on foot.

 

So, how many IXs and XIVs were grounded through lack of fuel, or had to revert to 130 grade and lower boost because of supply problems?

 

Rolls-Royce, Supermarine and the RAF & 2 TAF went to all the trouble of altering the engines and supplying the fuel and then refused to allow front-line squadrons to use it!

 

This sounds like a crazy idea, but as these are your words and not mine...

 

165_oprep_16sept44_zps4cbee09f.jpg

 

 

Well, until the 16 December 1944 this may been the plan.

 

These are snippets about plans and some speculation on your part. Your theory is that from mid december the 2nd TAF would only use 150 grade. It just did not happen as planned because while the fuel requirement for the 2nd TAF was about 15 000 tons a month (ie. all aircraft converted and using), the reality was that the consumption in NW Europe only amounted to

 

December - no consumption at all

January 1945 2,054

February 1945 2,328

March 1945 7,132

April 1945 12,191

May 1945 4,383

 

IOW, the conversion only begun in around January for some units, and it took a lot of time to convert all units (obviously they would first consume existing stocks of 130 grade), until about March-April 1945. 126 Wing, for example, only in "early February".

 

As of January 1945 these engines - which covers all of those types used in 2 TAF - were cleared to use 100/150 grade:

 

engines-cleared-for-150_zpscc44623e.jpg

 

Irrelevant. Higher grade fuel can be generally used. Higher boost can be used if the required modifications to engine are made (were they?) and required fuel is available (was it?)

 

No idea

 

Duly noted.

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

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The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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